EPTEven making the gun fully auto is something that isn't that easy either, there's a reason the parts that make it one truly fully auto go for so much (either 1,000$ or 10,000+ last I checked). That's why bump stocks are a big deal since they can make it functionally automatic rate of firing for 200-300$.
If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Even making the gun fully auto is something that isn't that easy either, there's a reason the parts that make it one truly fully auto go for so much (either 1,000$ or 10,000+ last I checked). That's why bump stocks are a big deal since they can make it functionally automatic rate of firing for 200-300$. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On November 07 2017 03:40 acker wrote: That depends. Are you planning to attach somehow-irremovable electronics to every part that could conceivably be used in a firearm, or are you planning to make the receiver itself electronic? Guns are far less complicated than cars and computers. A lot of posters here seem to want to wish that away through hopes and prayers, but don't seem to have a fundamental understanding about how guns work...let alone what they want to do to change that. Right, which is why you make them significantly more complicated by adding in hard-locks to components critical for firing. Pull the trigger --> nothing happens until the 5 seconds are up. You completely redesign the gun. I don't need to have a background in gun manufacturing to know from experience that you can engineer whatever you want to do basically anything, with a price. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On November 07 2017 03:45 Nevuk wrote: It's not as easy to make an ar-15 as people in this thread are claiming. Also, you'd have to get ammo, as I don't think making your own is viable for most people without a forge. Some sort of gun could probably be made with a 3d printer, but that's a different issue. It's also rather dangerous to make your own firearm, since if you do it wrong it'll blow up in your face (literally). Even making the gun fully auto is something that isn't that easy either, there's a reason the parts that make it one truly fully auto go for so much (either 1,000$ or 10,000+ last I checked). That's why bump stocks are a big deal since they can make it functionally automatic rate of firing for 200-300$. You can make a gun go fully automatic using two pieces of sheet metal. The reason why legal full automatics cost so much is because legal NFA gun owners tend to follow the law. It's really easy to make an AR-15. There are Youtube videos on how to do this using a hand drill. On November 07 2017 03:47 Mohdoo wrote: Right, which is why you make them significantly more complicated by adding in hard-locks to components critical for firing. Pull the trigger --> nothing happens until the 5 seconds are up. You completely redesign the gun. I don't need to have a background in gun manufacturing to know from experience that you can engineer whatever you want to do basically anything, with a price. Um, what? If we're going into hypotheticals as vague as that, we might as well say that guns can be made from liquid organic metal that only reacts through the power of love. Google AI could do it. | ||
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brian
United States9643 Posts
we are certainly talking in hypotheticals here, no doubt. but we are not talking in impossibilities. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On November 07 2017 03:54 acker wrote: You can make a gun go fully automatic using two pieces of sheet metal. The reason why legal full automatics cost so much is because legal NFA gun owners tend to follow the law. It's really easy to make an AR-15. There are Youtube videos on how to do this using a hand drill. Um, what? If we're going into hypotheticals as vague as that, we might as well say that guns can be made from liquid organic metal that only reacts through the power of love. Google AI could do it. lol, what is your background in product engineering? I am assuming there are others who could chime in to say making what I am describing would just be a matter of going through the motions and would not take an insane amount of ingenuity. I understand that the word of some random guy on the internet is not sufficient, but just in case it is, I assure you "organic metal liquid" is a much more challenging undertaking :p | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
It should be noted that a trigger that is fully controlled by an electronic mechanism is also a trigger that can be made fully automatic through jailbreaking or reprogramming. On November 07 2017 04:09 brian wrote: i mean, your comparison is terrible. one is possible, the other isn’t. it’s vagueness (a point which i imagine we disagree on the severity of) isn’t at issue here. we are certainly talking in hypotheticals here, no doubt. but we are not talking in impossibilities. While we're thinking of things that could be solved in the distant future through mere wishing and zero understanding, nothing is an impossibility. | ||
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brian
United States9643 Posts
On November 07 2017 04:11 acker wrote: Do you believe Teamliquid is the first place people thought of making electronic guns? Actual businesses have been trying to do this for law enforcement agencies for a few decades. It simply doesn't work the way people think it should. And this is for guns that can be disassembled normally, let alone guns with...whatever the hell "hard locks" are. Let alone a complete redesign of a 150+ year old concept. Or trying to shoehorn this concept into every gun on the market. It should be noted that a trigger that is fully controlled by an electronic mechanism is also a trigger that can be made fully automatic through jailbreaking or reprogramming. While we're thinking of things that could be solved in the distant future through mere wishing and zero understanding, nothing is an impossibility. well, your condescension aside, certainly it’s not even remotely near the realm of impossibility. we already have weapons that rely on computers, so you’ll have to forgive me but i won’t take your word on its relative difficulty, or how ‘distant a future’ this would be in. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On November 07 2017 04:11 acker wrote: Do you believe Teamliquid is the first place people thought of making electronic guns? Actual businesses have been trying to do this for law enforcement agencies for a few decades. It simply doesn't work the way people think it should. And this is for guns that can be disassembled normally, let alone guns with...whatever the hell "hard locks" are. Let alone a complete redesign of a 150+ year old concept. Or trying to shoehorn this concept into every gun on the market. It should be noted that a trigger that is fully controlled by an electronic mechanism is also a trigger that can be made fully automatic through jailbreaking or reprogramming. While we're thinking of things that could be solved in the distant future through mere wishing and zero understanding, nothing is an impossibility. This is all because "within reasonable cost" is a core consideration. When you are willing to drastically increase the cost of a gun, this all is suddenly totally manageable. I don't think you are appreciating the extreme mechanical/electrical complexity we humans have managed. I'm by no means presenting this as a "reasonable" solution, but the solution is entirely real. I am not of the opinion that Americans have a right to reasonably priced guns. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12014 Posts
Just take guns from WW1. The only question is the political will to do something like that. The techology has been there for over a hundred years. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 07 2017 03:54 acker wrote: You can make a gun go fully automatic using two pieces of sheet metal. The reason why legal full automatics cost so much is because legal NFA gun owners tend to follow the law. It's really easy to make an AR-15. There are Youtube videos on how to do this using a hand drill. Um, what? If we're going into hypotheticals as vague as that, we might as well say that guns can be made from liquid organic metal that only reacts through the power of love. Google AI could do it. That link is "how to make an AR-15 fully auto" and is one of the reasons why people wanted to ban them. It's also not exactly "easy" if you read the comments, requiring a competent machinist with a knowledge of firearms. I don't believe you if you say you can make a fully functional AR-15 with a hand drill. I flat out do not believe you. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14211 Posts
I mean what Mohdoo is saying is possible but is pretty silly at the end of the day. The model 8 and the 1911 handgun are literally from 1911 and both can be inserted with a larger magazine made from a 3d printer today. They literaly made a 20 round mag for the model 8 for "police use". | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
If tomorrow I was handed 100 guys and told to make an automatic rifle, I can make a fair stab at it, (assuming infinite ready made bullets;and a lot of those 100 guys will be unfortunate testers assuming the first few models will have problems), but I wouldn't know where to start to make gunpwder. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
If you'd make every single round to have some internal microprocessor that controls if it's allowed to fire, then maybe you'd make it difficult/annoying. But then you'd just rig the gun to fire old fashioned rounds instead of modding each round. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 07 2017 05:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You can make an automatic rifle from any well equipped machine shop. It wouldn't be an exact model of a modern rifle, it wouldn't have the weight, tolerances, or accuracy, or reliabilty of a modern rifle, but it will be accurate enough, functional enough and reliable enough. It'll also weigh like 6kg off the top of my head. Guns are old technology. They have been around for over 600 years. Bullets would be tougher. If tomorrow I was handed 100 guys and told to make an automatic rifle, I can make a fair stab at it, (assuming infinite ready made bullets;and a lot of those 100 guys will be unfortunate testers assuming the first few models will have problems), but I wouldn't know where to start to make gunpwder. Right, of course you could do it with a 100 people. That'd just be a gun manufacturing plant. But it's not like "people making their own firearms" is a big threat in europe though it'd presumably be of similar ease, no? I'm not really sure why the idea that you can make your own firearm came up. | ||
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brian
United States9643 Posts
On November 07 2017 05:54 Nevuk wrote: Right, of course you could do it with a 100 people. That'd just be a gun manufacturing plant. But it's not like "people making their own firearms" is a big threat in europe though it'd presumably be of similar ease, no? I'm not really sure why the idea that you can make your own firearm came up. as a means of circumventing the hypothetical electronic ‘control.’ and with regards to the ease of dismantling this hypothetical control, again, i am impressed by peoples’ confidence in their ability to remove something that does not exist. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On November 07 2017 05:54 Nevuk wrote: Right, of course you could do it with a 100 people. That'd just be a gun manufacturing plant. But it's not like "people making their own firearms" is a big threat in europe though it'd presumably be of similar ease, no? I'm not really sure why the idea that you can make your own firearm came up. 95 of those guys are to account for when the gun I am designing blows up in their face since I infact I would be designing from first principles, though I suppose there might be a manual lying around, but I do have access to what can be called a sophisticated machine shop. The other 5 are there so the accelerated design and manufacturing process can all be done in a week. | ||
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On November 07 2017 03:29 Jockmcplop wrote: Will people still argue for their right to have a lethal weapon when a good non lethal alternative becomes cheap/available? you mean like a BB gun or a blowgun or something? Theres plenty of cheap non lethal alternatives to guns already available. Unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by "alternative" | ||
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