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If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-05 03:39:11
May 05 2013 03:22 GMT
#9681
On May 05 2013 11:35 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 05 2013 09:39 Nachtwind wrote:
On May 05 2013 09:21 Millitron wrote:
On May 05 2013 09:12 Nachtwind wrote:
i think germany for example, the third biggest sport organisation here is shooting sport. Then again we have, i think, the hardest weapons laws in the world. While any citizen can own guns you must proof that you´re able to understand what you´re holding in your hands, proof that you´re able to lock it and pay some time and € for training and all those licenses till you can actually buy guns for your own.

And i see nothing wrong with this because the majority doesn´t feel that they´ve taken away their right to wear firearms. Because of that, i sometimes have a hard understanding why "everyone" should have free and uncontrolled acccess (2nd buyer) to guns and even kids (5-18.) years), like you in the US. Or why you feel you "need" to "guarantee" the "ability" to "fight" your own goverment. Many " marks i think but i don´t want to say anything wrong.

We don't all see it that way. Germany is not the United States. Different cultures.

On May 05 2013 09:12 Nachtwind wrote:
If "we" would have a dictator again we would get weapons from all around the world or the black market. Even the weapons we have right now would be sufficient to make a guerilla war happen. Imagine that in a land with the hardest weapon laws.

In my eyes the next dictator in the western world is more a product of the economy and their power to influence politics but not the "goverment" itself. It´s a creeping process. And guns won´t help you to fight it. Just a sharp mind, a community, your voice and foresight. Yes. When you as a citizen failed and it´s all too late, then it´s time for a call to arms.

Your voice absolutely IS a better tool for preventing tyranny, but it shouldn't be your only one. Look how well speaking out worked for the people in Tianenmen Square.

On May 05 2013 09:12 Nachtwind wrote:
And the pro self defense argument is based that a potential criminal fear his target/victim because he "could" bear firearms - we don´t speak about "defense skills" and "defense tools" yet.

The situations where one comes into "melee" range of an attack, any weapon we can get in the free market would be functionally adequate.

Melee range doesn't suddenly make guns worthless. Even if they knock you down, and are beating you, you can still draw your gun and fire. Its not like you really have to aim when they're on you. And yes, you might still lose, but its better than a guaranteed loss.

The weapons of today aren't THAT different. They're still just guns. And the government can't use the things that ARE different, because they're terribly ineffective at dealing with guerrilla forces. Tanks can't kick down your door at 2AM, and jets can't enforce a curfew.


Sure our scientist when it comes down to weapon controll pay a HUGE and i mean huge attention about every little thing you could imagine. That´s about "different cultures because" that´s also a part about our own science in this matter.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffenmissbrauch#Krimineller_Einsatz_von_Schusswaffen
(sorry i didn´t found a english side maybe you can read a few things though=(

it´s like a full paragraph is explaining like an excuse that the data coud be used "biased" and could be interpreted in anyway but the data is nontheless there.

The next thing though .. "Tianenmen Square" I mean you can´t compare this situations. And about the self defense part .. well i was in a martial arts club from our local police since i was 8 i´m now 30 so i won´t argue here.

And the weapon part is bolded and i don´t meaned gun weapons with weapons.

I'm not saying the US is now as bad as Tianenmen Square, I'm saying it could happen, I wouldn't want to be armed with nothing more than my voice in the event that things do get that bad.

Not everyone has done martial arts training since they were 8, nor can they be expected to. I'm 21, and I've been in a wheelchair all my life. No amount of martial arts training is going to help me defend myself, but a gun might.


From what?

+ Show Spoiler +
Not to offend you but losing the ability to walk/run is shit. Don´t think you want my pity because that offend strong people. Then again if everything is going right you´ll have 10 times more "power" in your "legs" in 15 year then i have. I hope so.=)


edit: And then we´re driffting away from what i wrote and the same circle jerk begins again we saw ~500 pages
invisible tetris level master
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
May 05 2013 05:29 GMT
#9682
+ Show Spoiler +
I've got Muscular Dystrophy. I didn't actually get a wheelchair till I was 5, but I've never been able to walk. Wheelchairs are insanely expensive, so I didn't get one till I needed to go to school. My current chair was $20,000
Who called in the fleet?
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25618 Posts
May 05 2013 05:30 GMT
#9683
+ Show Spoiler +
20k, wtf?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Malarkey817
Profile Joined June 2010
United States163 Posts
May 05 2013 05:52 GMT
#9684
On May 05 2013 03:26 Rhino85 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 05 2013 03:13 Xialos wrote:
On May 05 2013 03:05 thetaoptimus wrote:
If car driver goes mad and starts killing pedestrians - then we should ban cars?

Should people be allowed to own and drive Cars?


Lol what kind of analogy is that? I dont think cars and weapons have the same purpose. Just saying.



You're right, I've never used my car to run over targets for sport, run over game for food for my family, and never to run down a criminal to protect my own life and liberty.

Not all of us can be Walter White amirite?
"Mnet's Nicole The Entertainer's Introduction to Veterinary Science changed my life." -TuElite
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
May 05 2013 06:26 GMT
#9685
http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/

^for those interested in a real insight into this 'debate' here you go.^
We Live to Die
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
May 05 2013 06:30 GMT
#9686
Also found this slightly amusing read:

"Don't believe in God, that's your right
Don't believe in guns, that's your choice

What's the 1st thing you do when someone breaks into your home with evil intent?

Call the police, someone with a gun, and pray they get to you fast enough."

I laughed a bit I must admit.
We Live to Die
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
May 05 2013 15:46 GMT
#9687
On May 05 2013 15:26 SayGen wrote:
http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/

^for those interested in a real insight into this 'debate' here you go.^

Interesting opinion blog, sort of long but somewhat enjoyable opinion to read
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
May 05 2013 21:02 GMT
#9688
http://www.iowastatedaily.com/opinion/article_1c144792-b36d-11e2-8ac6-001a4bcf887a.html?TNNoMobile

Pretty long, but it explains perfectly why people like me are not interested in giving in to people like you even one inch, Marigold.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-05 22:02:52
May 05 2013 21:59 GMT
#9689
To that writer I would say that I wish he could view the issue through the lens of public health too

In the gun debate, I’ve discovered that one cannot be expert enough about guns. Indeed, when it comes to the gun issue, opinion rules. There doesn’t seem to be any opportunity for any genuine, honest debate on guns, and even liberals would agree with that.

To this I'd tell him, "yeah, it's too bad, maybe we could stop blocking funding for research into guns"


And all in all it has way too much of the "liberals vs. me" feel to it, which I'm not at all interested in. The bipartisan squabbling opinion pieces don't interest me as much as the nonpartisan peer reviewed pieces
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-05 23:22:35
May 05 2013 23:21 GMT
#9690
http://www.aurorasentinel.com/opinion/perry-we-can-only-save-ourselves-from-kidnappers-at-the-nra/

Another example of why gun advocates don't trust gun grabbers. Why should I or anyone who believes in the right to bear arms listen to the gun control side when remarks like Mr. Perry's grace the pages of allegedly reputable newspapers?

To that writer I would say that I wish he could view the issue through the lens of public health too


Another example of what I was talking about earlier that you flipped your lid over. You want the issue viewed from the perspective that benefits your position most and has a veneer of objectivity to it.

To this I'd tell him, "yeah, it's too bad, maybe we could stop blocking funding for research into guns"


So basically you would close your mind and respond with a flippant, dismissive remark, something I remember you flipping your lid over because you thought that's what I was doing.

And all in all it has way too much of the "liberals vs. me" feel to it, which I'm not at all interested in. The bipartisan squabbling opinion pieces don't interest me as much as the nonpartisan peer reviewed pieces


Aaaaaand the second example in your post of exactly what I was talking about before. Nonpartisan peer reviewed doesn't mean anything except "it should be given more weight."
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-06 04:56:47
May 05 2013 23:34 GMT
#9691
Agreed mostly (on the whole "peer reviewed journal articles should carry more weight than extremist right wing Op/Ed pieces)

The fact that you are down there on that low level where you generalize and label your opponents ("gun grabbers") suggests that you aren't full of too many legitimate defenses against more responsible gun control. I don't recall labeling you or anyone with particularly extremist views as a "gun nut", so I see no need to start tossing around cute terms like "gun grabber". It's also especially cool that your biggest argument so far is that a public health perspective on more responsible gun control is a political propaganda tool. Ya can't even argue against a guy who thinks like that, it's failsafe!
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-06 02:15:31
May 06 2013 02:01 GMT
#9692
On May 06 2013 08:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:
http://www.aurorasentinel.com/opinion/perry-we-can-only-save-ourselves-from-kidnappers-at-the-nra/

Another example of why gun advocates don't trust gun grabbers. Why should I or anyone who believes in the right to bear arms listen to the gun control side when remarks like Mr. Perry's grace the pages of allegedly reputable newspapers?

Show nested quote +
To that writer I would say that I wish he could view the issue through the lens of public health too


Another example of what I was talking about earlier that you flipped your lid over. You want the issue viewed from the perspective that benefits your position most and has a veneer of objectivity to it.

Show nested quote +
To this I'd tell him, "yeah, it's too bad, maybe we could stop blocking funding for research into guns"


So basically you would close your mind and respond with a flippant, dismissive remark, something I remember you flipping your lid over because you thought that's what I was doing.

Show nested quote +
And all in all it has way too much of the "liberals vs. me" feel to it, which I'm not at all interested in. The bipartisan squabbling opinion pieces don't interest me as much as the nonpartisan peer reviewed pieces


Aaaaaand the second example in your post of exactly what I was talking about before. Nonpartisan peer reviewed doesn't mean anything except "it should be given more weight."

What's wrong with you today? You usually post better. I'd argue, but all you've been doing is posting shitty opinion pieces and crying about how you're oppressed or something. Both of the articles you've posted are moronic, extremist shit. I could barely finish the first piece because I couldn't stop laughing. The last page or so was a massive self contradiction, while the entire article could have been written from an extremist pro-gun point of view with little editing.

I mean do you seriously wonder why the guy wrote the second piece? IT'S AN OPINION PIECE FOR A WEEKLY NEWSPAPER IN AURORA FUCKING COLORADO. YOU KNOW? THAT DENVER SUBURB WHERE A GUY SHOT 70 PEOPLE IN A THEATER? YEAH I BET THAT GUYS NOT LOOKING FOR ATTENTION AT ALL! The entire point of the fucking article was to get people to complain about it. By sharing shit like that you encourage the shit journalism which is becoming the norm in this country.

Seriously, who the fuck are Dave Perry, and Barry Snell and why are they important to this discussion (or any)?
oh, here's one:
Barry Snell is a senior in history and political science from Muscatine, Iowa
HOW CREDIBLE
Dave Perry is an editor for a small-time daily online tabloid which gets printed once a week on Thursdays.
[image loading]

Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Rhino85
Profile Joined February 2011
United States90 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-06 02:05:25
May 06 2013 02:05 GMT
#9693
Just to clarify, Aurora was the theater shooting, somehow you combined Newtown and Columbine into Aurora.
The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
May 06 2013 02:14 GMT
#9694
On May 06 2013 11:05 Rhino85 wrote:
Just to clarify, Aurora was the theater shooting, somehow you combined Newtown and Columbine into Aurora.

Edited, thanks.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
May 06 2013 02:59 GMT
#9695
On May 06 2013 08:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:
http://www.aurorasentinel.com/opinion/perry-we-can-only-save-ourselves-from-kidnappers-at-the-nra/

Another example of why gun advocates don't trust gun grabbers. Why should I or anyone who believes in the right to bear arms listen to the gun control side when remarks like Mr. Perry's grace the pages of allegedly reputable newspapers?

Show nested quote +
To that writer I would say that I wish he could view the issue through the lens of public health too


Another example of what I was talking about earlier that you flipped your lid over. You want the issue viewed from the perspective that benefits your position most and has a veneer of objectivity to it.

Show nested quote +
To this I'd tell him, "yeah, it's too bad, maybe we could stop blocking funding for research into guns"


So basically you would close your mind and respond with a flippant, dismissive remark, something I remember you flipping your lid over because you thought that's what I was doing.

Show nested quote +
And all in all it has way too much of the "liberals vs. me" feel to it, which I'm not at all interested in. The bipartisan squabbling opinion pieces don't interest me as much as the nonpartisan peer reviewed pieces


Aaaaaand the second example in your post of exactly what I was talking about before. Nonpartisan peer reviewed doesn't mean anything except "it should be given more weight."


What's interesting about the link isn't the actual article, it's the comments. Yikes.


kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-06 03:20:11
May 06 2013 03:19 GMT
#9696
On May 06 2013 11:59 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2013 08:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:
http://www.aurorasentinel.com/opinion/perry-we-can-only-save-ourselves-from-kidnappers-at-the-nra/

Another example of why gun advocates don't trust gun grabbers. Why should I or anyone who believes in the right to bear arms listen to the gun control side when remarks like Mr. Perry's grace the pages of allegedly reputable newspapers?

To that writer I would say that I wish he could view the issue through the lens of public health too


Another example of what I was talking about earlier that you flipped your lid over. You want the issue viewed from the perspective that benefits your position most and has a veneer of objectivity to it.

To this I'd tell him, "yeah, it's too bad, maybe we could stop blocking funding for research into guns"


So basically you would close your mind and respond with a flippant, dismissive remark, something I remember you flipping your lid over because you thought that's what I was doing.

And all in all it has way too much of the "liberals vs. me" feel to it, which I'm not at all interested in. The bipartisan squabbling opinion pieces don't interest me as much as the nonpartisan peer reviewed pieces


Aaaaaand the second example in your post of exactly what I was talking about before. Nonpartisan peer reviewed doesn't mean anything except "it should be given more weight."


What's interesting about the link isn't the actual article, it's the comments. Yikes.




Yeah, some of them I agree with, others made me cringe:

they also have a monopoly on gay sex and dead infants


I get it...they're pro-life. But what the fuck is a monopoly on gay sex?

(Sorry, not trying to de-rail the thread, just found it funny)
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
May 06 2013 03:26 GMT
#9697
On May 06 2013 12:19 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2013 11:59 Defacer wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:
http://www.aurorasentinel.com/opinion/perry-we-can-only-save-ourselves-from-kidnappers-at-the-nra/

Another example of why gun advocates don't trust gun grabbers. Why should I or anyone who believes in the right to bear arms listen to the gun control side when remarks like Mr. Perry's grace the pages of allegedly reputable newspapers?

To that writer I would say that I wish he could view the issue through the lens of public health too


Another example of what I was talking about earlier that you flipped your lid over. You want the issue viewed from the perspective that benefits your position most and has a veneer of objectivity to it.

To this I'd tell him, "yeah, it's too bad, maybe we could stop blocking funding for research into guns"


So basically you would close your mind and respond with a flippant, dismissive remark, something I remember you flipping your lid over because you thought that's what I was doing.

And all in all it has way too much of the "liberals vs. me" feel to it, which I'm not at all interested in. The bipartisan squabbling opinion pieces don't interest me as much as the nonpartisan peer reviewed pieces


Aaaaaand the second example in your post of exactly what I was talking about before. Nonpartisan peer reviewed doesn't mean anything except "it should be given more weight."


What's interesting about the link isn't the actual article, it's the comments. Yikes.




Yeah, some of them I agree with, others made me cringe:

Show nested quote +
they also have a monopoly on gay sex and dead infants


I get it...they're pro-life. But what the fuck is a monopoly on gay sex?

(Sorry, not trying to de-rail the thread, just found it funny)

The same as having a monopoly on being black I guess.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-06 07:33:40
May 06 2013 06:33 GMT
#9698
On May 06 2013 12:19 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2013 11:59 Defacer wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:
http://www.aurorasentinel.com/opinion/perry-we-can-only-save-ourselves-from-kidnappers-at-the-nra/

Another example of why gun advocates don't trust gun grabbers. Why should I or anyone who believes in the right to bear arms listen to the gun control side when remarks like Mr. Perry's grace the pages of allegedly reputable newspapers?

To that writer I would say that I wish he could view the issue through the lens of public health too


Another example of what I was talking about earlier that you flipped your lid over. You want the issue viewed from the perspective that benefits your position most and has a veneer of objectivity to it.

To this I'd tell him, "yeah, it's too bad, maybe we could stop blocking funding for research into guns"


So basically you would close your mind and respond with a flippant, dismissive remark, something I remember you flipping your lid over because you thought that's what I was doing.

And all in all it has way too much of the "liberals vs. me" feel to it, which I'm not at all interested in. The bipartisan squabbling opinion pieces don't interest me as much as the nonpartisan peer reviewed pieces


Aaaaaand the second example in your post of exactly what I was talking about before. Nonpartisan peer reviewed doesn't mean anything except "it should be given more weight."


What's interesting about the link isn't the actual article, it's the comments. Yikes.




Yeah, some of them I agree with, others made me cringe:

Show nested quote +
they also have a monopoly on gay sex and dead infants


I get it...they're pro-life. But what the fuck is a monopoly on gay sex?

(Sorry, not trying to de-rail the thread, just found it funny)


It's baffling how polarized people on both sides of the debate can get.

If you're Pro-gun-'freedom', you're a mindless, religious, militant, blood thirsty, uneducated redneck zealot that would rather see kids go on shooting rampages than see stricter regulations on guns.

If you're Pro-gun-control, you're a socialist commie facist faggot that will willfully sacrifice all freedom to a corrupt government as long as you get your hand-outs.

I've met actual Americans. Most are nice, complicated people. There's a huge spectrum between these two extremes.


kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
May 06 2013 07:18 GMT
#9699
On May 06 2013 15:33 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2013 12:19 kmillz wrote:
On May 06 2013 11:59 Defacer wrote:
On May 06 2013 08:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:
http://www.aurorasentinel.com/opinion/perry-we-can-only-save-ourselves-from-kidnappers-at-the-nra/

Another example of why gun advocates don't trust gun grabbers. Why should I or anyone who believes in the right to bear arms listen to the gun control side when remarks like Mr. Perry's grace the pages of allegedly reputable newspapers?

To that writer I would say that I wish he could view the issue through the lens of public health too


Another example of what I was talking about earlier that you flipped your lid over. You want the issue viewed from the perspective that benefits your position most and has a veneer of objectivity to it.

To this I'd tell him, "yeah, it's too bad, maybe we could stop blocking funding for research into guns"


So basically you would close your mind and respond with a flippant, dismissive remark, something I remember you flipping your lid over because you thought that's what I was doing.

And all in all it has way too much of the "liberals vs. me" feel to it, which I'm not at all interested in. The bipartisan squabbling opinion pieces don't interest me as much as the nonpartisan peer reviewed pieces


Aaaaaand the second example in your post of exactly what I was talking about before. Nonpartisan peer reviewed doesn't mean anything except "it should be given more weight."


What's interesting about the link isn't the actual article, it's the comments. Yikes.




Yeah, some of them I agree with, others made me cringe:

they also have a monopoly on gay sex and dead infants


I get it...they're pro-life. But what the fuck is a monopoly on gay sex?

(Sorry, not trying to de-rail the thread, just found it funny)


It's baffling how polarized people on both sides of the debate can get.

If you're Pro-gun-'freedom', you're a mindless, religious, militant, blood thirsty, uneducated redneck zealot that would rather see kids go on shooting rampages than see stricter regulations on guns.

If you're Pro-gun-control, you're a socialist commie facist faggot that will willfully sacrifice all freedom to a corrupt government as long as your get your hand-outs.

I've met actual Americans. Most are nice, complicated people. There's a huge spectrum between these two extremes.




Lol omfg...this is so true.

Stereotypes based on your side of the argument.
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
May 06 2013 13:56 GMT
#9700
On May 04 2013 01:11 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 00:57 Paljas wrote:
On May 04 2013 00:56 Sermokala wrote:
On May 04 2013 00:32 kollin wrote:
On May 03 2013 13:37 Arctic Daishi wrote:
Absolutely. We'll never give up our rights, nor should we.

But why should it be your right?

Because we put it on a peice of paper to start out the country, and the country's doing pretty good.

i would disagree. Also, thats not a very good argument. (unless you are joking and i am missing the joke)


Doing "pretty well" is completely subjective so obviously not everyone will agree on whether or not it is "doing well" but you thinking it is "not doing well" isn't a very good argument to take away peoples rights either, unless you can provide significant data to support that taking away those rights will change that.



It's a bad argument because we have added/removed/changed the wording of that piece of paper many times since its inception. And I'm not even talking about swinging interpretations by the Supreme Court I mean outright changing the words that are on that piece of paper. How well the country is doing is not part of it.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
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