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On December 21 2012 02:08 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:04 Focuspants wrote:On December 21 2012 02:01 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:45 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:38 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:
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That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here). Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong. http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides Suicide is another interesting topic. People who own guns are more likely to die in a suicide (because they are more likely successful), there was a study linked in this thread I think. Whether that's good or bad or not that bad is again a bit difficult to decide. Your links to ssristories do not show anything if you do not have a complete list of all incidents (with and without drug or suicide). People die from suicide 3-4 times more than they do from firearms. If I find a statistic that shows how many people who commit suicide are on drugs or psychiatric drugs I will post it. If someone wants to commit suicide, they will do so with or without a gun. "The Harvard School of Mental Health just published the results of a study that examined the relationship between household firearms ownership and the rate of suicide. According to the study suicide among people 45 years of age and younger suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States. Among the 50 states in the United States, those with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of suicide among children, women and men. It is important to understand, according to the study, that the higher rates of suicide among those who own guns has to do with the fact that guns are much more lethal than other methods of attempting suicide. What is troubling about this is that suicide attempts are viewed as a desperate call for help among those who are depressed or mentally ill with a psychotic illness. The rate of successful suicide completions is far less for people who use other methods than using a gun. For example, 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs. These people are found alive 97% of the time. Those who succeed in using drugs to attempt suicide are successful only 3% of the time. By contrast, more than 90% of all suicide attempts by use of firearms are successful. The bottom line is that anyone using a gun to commit suicide is not likely to have their call for help heard and responded to before its too late." That is all you need to know. There is a chance to receive help if you survive. You dont survive if you use a gun. It is a waste of a potentially salvageable life. Right. But what you have to handle is the root of the problem, what causes someone to want to kill themselves. Blaming guns will not handle the problem, people will attempt suicide through other means. The only thing this proves is that we need laws that keep guns out of the hands of mentally insane without infringing on others' rights. But in the end, they will commit suicide anyways with or without a gun. You can also lock people up who try to commit suicide or tie them down 24/7 so they can't. Less people will kill themselves but is that really a solution?
Again you are way oversimplifying this. Depression and anxiety are problems that TONS of people have to deal with. Chances are, if you picked 20 of your friends, a bunch of them had to deal with one or both of these issues at some point. Some people deal with it better than others. I suffered from depression for 4 years, and nobody but myself could even tell. I am well adjusted, I put on a brave face when I went out or was around friends and family, there wasnt a person that knew me that could have known. If my family and closest friends couldnt tell, how would some storekeeper at a gun store know?
I was never to the point where I would want to hurt myself, but I can understand what causes people to get to that point. Having a firearm around means you have a quick, painless, and "easy" way out. If you have to actually cut yourself, or throw yourself off a bridge or something, there is a level of pain or greater fear that you need to deal with. That is also why overdosing is the most used method. You black out and you either wake up or you dont. Thankfully, almost all do wake up, and then even if the problem wasnt visible on the surface prior, people now know they need help.
You really have a lack of understanding on this issue, im sorry. You are more than grossly oversimplifying it.
Edit* And Jaco, if you read my previous posts, I am arguing many things need to change, from a variety of different areas in relation to this problem. Esk is trying to pin it solely on the psyche of the assailant, by saying that we should ban anyone that could do this from havign a gun, while letting everyone else have one, and my point is simply that you cant identify everyone, its impossible. Also that a large percentage of the population struggles with the issues he deems people as "crazy" for having. Its not as simple as he makes it seem.
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On December 21 2012 02:15 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 02:04 Focuspants wrote:On December 21 2012 02:01 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:45 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:38 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:
[quote]
It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here). Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong. http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides Suicide is another interesting topic. People who own guns are more likely to die in a suicide (because they are more likely successful), there was a study linked in this thread I think. Whether that's good or bad or not that bad is again a bit difficult to decide. Your links to ssristories do not show anything if you do not have a complete list of all incidents (with and without drug or suicide). People die from suicide 3-4 times more than they do from firearms. If I find a statistic that shows how many people who commit suicide are on drugs or psychiatric drugs I will post it. If someone wants to commit suicide, they will do so with or without a gun. "The Harvard School of Mental Health just published the results of a study that examined the relationship between household firearms ownership and the rate of suicide. According to the study suicide among people 45 years of age and younger suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States. Among the 50 states in the United States, those with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of suicide among children, women and men. It is important to understand, according to the study, that the higher rates of suicide among those who own guns has to do with the fact that guns are much more lethal than other methods of attempting suicide. What is troubling about this is that suicide attempts are viewed as a desperate call for help among those who are depressed or mentally ill with a psychotic illness. The rate of successful suicide completions is far less for people who use other methods than using a gun. For example, 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs. These people are found alive 97% of the time. Those who succeed in using drugs to attempt suicide are successful only 3% of the time. By contrast, more than 90% of all suicide attempts by use of firearms are successful. The bottom line is that anyone using a gun to commit suicide is not likely to have their call for help heard and responded to before its too late." That is all you need to know. There is a chance to receive help if you survive. You dont survive if you use a gun. It is a waste of a potentially salvageable life. Right. But what you have to handle is the root of the problem, what causes someone to want to kill themselves. Blaming guns will not handle the problem, people will attempt suicide through other means. The only thing this proves is that we need laws that keep guns out of the hands of mentally insane without infringing on others' rights. But in the end, they will commit suicide anyways with or without a gun. You can also lock people up who try to commit suicide or tie them down 24/7 so they can't. Less people will kill themselves but is that really a solution? Again you are way oversimplifying this. Depression and anxiety are problems that TONS of people have to deal with. Chances are, if you picked 20 of your friends, a bunch of them had to deal with one or both of these issues at some point. Some people deal with it better than others. I suffered from depression for 4 years, and nobody but myself could even tell. I am well adjusted, I put on a brave face when I went out or was around friends and family, there wasnt a person that knew me that could have known. If my family and closest friends couldnt tell, how would some storekeeper at a gun store know? I was never to the point where I would want to hurt myself, but I can understand what causes people to get to that point. Having a firearm around means you have a quick, painless, and "easy" way out. If you have to actually cut yourself, or throw yourself off a bridge or something, there is a level of pain or greater fear that you need to deal with. That is also why overdosing is the most used method. You black out and you either wake up or you dont. Thankfully, almost all do wake up, and then even if the problem wasnt visible on the surface prior, people now know they need help. You really have a lack of understanding on this issue, im sorry. You are more than grossly oversimplifying it.
I think you are oversimplifying it. There are MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR differences with depression, depression leading to suicide, and suicide with intent to take many others with you.
Everyone deals with minor - major lapses of depression.
Not everyone gets to the point of wanting to actually hurt themselves. And this is even a big step. And then there's probably several other steps before you get to the point of wanting to kill, not just hurt, yourself.
And then wanting to kill other people in the process... there's probably a SLEW of other factors involved.
You say he is oversimplifying it, yet you seem to think that someone who wants to commit suicide just randomly wakes up one morning and goes *eureka* "zomg I got ze access to za gunz"
Afaik, all of my readings on suicide thus far, the case has been that people will think about committing suicide for a very very long time.
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On December 20 2012 11:21 binkman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 10:36 Zaqwe wrote:On December 20 2012 08:48 SilentchiLL wrote:
I didn't, it was an example.
The question is, how DO you justify it if you take the price you have to pay for it into account?
Because it doesn't matter how many nice guys with guns exists, that price (lifes of innocent people) still exists.
The problem here is that the "price" of gun ownership is a figment of your deluded and paranoid imagination. You are coming to wrong conclusions based on your irrational fear of firearms, and then asking people questions based on a false premise you fabricated. The real question is: why should innocent victims pay the price of being disarmed, just to relieve your phobia of guns? Harvard Study: Gun Control Is CounterproductiveThe study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.
The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:
Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns.http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/ What a wonderful "Harvard Study", the best type of study: a non-peer-reviewed article in a Law Review edited by right-wing Harvard Law students. This "study" is a joke, 40 pages of trash that wouldn't stand up to any reasonable form of peer-review. As an example consider the figures used for Luxembourg, citing a homocide rate of 9/100k. This figure is referred to a number of times in the "study", unfortunately the actual homicide rate in Luxembourg is actually 0.9/100k. For some actual peer-reviewed studies from Harvard about gun violence, try http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/Unfortunately the real peer-reviewed stuff doesn't support the conclusions made by Kates and Mauser, but you can find that out for yourself.
That is not even the issue. The issue is a bigger one. Do you want liberty and private property or do you want an authoritarian government that restricts and forbids certain goods and services.
The founding fathers of the USA, which no one would disagree are considered one of the smartest people in all time knew that countries go through a cycle that happens each 100 to 250 years where they go from freedom, liberty and prosperity to authoritative, totalitarianism and oppression and thus made the right to own and bear guns the second most important codified law of the land, just behind free speech.
As such it becomes do you want to give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety and you should know that those who give up essential liberty for little temporary safety shall and deserve neither.
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Also (and I can't believe I didn't think about this sooner), not all suicide attempts are based on wanting a quick painless out. In fact, a lot of people committing suicide seem to want to "savor" in some twisted way I don't understand, passing from this life.
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On December 21 2012 02:15 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 02:04 Focuspants wrote:On December 21 2012 02:01 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:45 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:38 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:
[quote]
It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here). Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong. http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides Suicide is another interesting topic. People who own guns are more likely to die in a suicide (because they are more likely successful), there was a study linked in this thread I think. Whether that's good or bad or not that bad is again a bit difficult to decide. Your links to ssristories do not show anything if you do not have a complete list of all incidents (with and without drug or suicide). People die from suicide 3-4 times more than they do from firearms. If I find a statistic that shows how many people who commit suicide are on drugs or psychiatric drugs I will post it. If someone wants to commit suicide, they will do so with or without a gun. "The Harvard School of Mental Health just published the results of a study that examined the relationship between household firearms ownership and the rate of suicide. According to the study suicide among people 45 years of age and younger suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States. Among the 50 states in the United States, those with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of suicide among children, women and men. It is important to understand, according to the study, that the higher rates of suicide among those who own guns has to do with the fact that guns are much more lethal than other methods of attempting suicide. What is troubling about this is that suicide attempts are viewed as a desperate call for help among those who are depressed or mentally ill with a psychotic illness. The rate of successful suicide completions is far less for people who use other methods than using a gun. For example, 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs. These people are found alive 97% of the time. Those who succeed in using drugs to attempt suicide are successful only 3% of the time. By contrast, more than 90% of all suicide attempts by use of firearms are successful. The bottom line is that anyone using a gun to commit suicide is not likely to have their call for help heard and responded to before its too late." That is all you need to know. There is a chance to receive help if you survive. You dont survive if you use a gun. It is a waste of a potentially salvageable life. Right. But what you have to handle is the root of the problem, what causes someone to want to kill themselves. Blaming guns will not handle the problem, people will attempt suicide through other means. The only thing this proves is that we need laws that keep guns out of the hands of mentally insane without infringing on others' rights. But in the end, they will commit suicide anyways with or without a gun. You can also lock people up who try to commit suicide or tie them down 24/7 so they can't. Less people will kill themselves but is that really a solution? Again you are way oversimplifying this. Depression and anxiety are problems that TONS of people have to deal with. Chances are, if you picked 20 of your friends, a bunch of them had to deal with one or both of these issues at some point. Some people deal with it better than others. I suffered from depression for 4 years, and nobody but myself could even tell. I am well adjusted, I put on a brave face when I went out or was around friends and family, there wasnt a person that knew me that could have known. If my family and closest friends couldnt tell, how would some storekeeper at a gun store know? I was never to the point where I would want to hurt myself, but I can understand what causes people to get to that point. Having a firearm around means you have a quick, painless, and "easy" way out. If you have to actually cut yourself, or throw yourself off a bridge or something, there is a level of pain or greater fear that you need to deal with. That is also why overdosing is the most used method. You black out and you either wake up or you dont. Thankfully, almost all do wake up, and then even if the problem wasnt visible on the surface prior, people now know they need help. You really have a lack of understanding on this issue, im sorry. You are more than grossly oversimplifying it.
You basically just posted the same thing over again, but in greater detail. I know what fcking "suicide" is and that guns can make it easier for someone to kill themselves with who want to. The point is removing guns is not a solution for curing someone who wants to kill themselves. People hang themselves, drug overdose, jump off bridges, etc.
What is your point really? Do you think EVERYONE including law abiding citizens should lose their rights because some people want to kill themselves with guns? So if we get guns out of peoples' hands who want to commit suicide (which is not really possible) what's going to stop them from hanging themselves or jumping off a building. Take Japan for example:
"Japan Suicide Rate Still Among The World's Highest Due To Low Job Prospects "
"TOKYO -- The number of Japanese who committed suicide declined last year, but remained above 30,000 for the 13th straight year with a sharp jump in deaths by those citing grim job prospects, a government report said Thursday."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/04/japan-suicide-rate-still-_n_831430.html
Japan, as we know, have complete gun bans for citizens.
This is why you look completely silly. By not addressing the cause or the root of the problem, people will lose rights and the actual problem itself will not be handled.
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On December 21 2012 02:06 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:19 mordk wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 01:11 mordk wrote:
Guns are too rooted into the US culture to be removed right now, particuarly since if one government does, they will probably lose the next election and the new government will reinstate freedom to own and carry guns and the they'll be back to the same problem. I fail to understand how people can be so blind. It's pretty obvious violent crimes with guns are related to the amount of people having a gun. In my countries not even criminals hold guns. They'll try to kill you with a knife or by beating you up, but they won't shoot you, and since the former options take a lot more effort and risk to actually get the kill, that logically results in less deaths by crimes. Crazy people here kill themselves, they don't go on murdering onslaughts, simply because without a gun you just can't do it, it's just not possible.
It's just how people in the US live apparently. I'm just happy I don't live there and have no reason to go there except for small periods of time, which I feel are vastly more dangerous than even the nastiest neighborhood in my country. Whatttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt? Crazy things happen everywhere in the world. Also, I find it amusing you think that. I like to think I'm pretty well-traveled and I don't feel safe in any country but the US. And, I moved here from another country. I don't remember a single, just one, ONE thing like that in my country. The worst crimes here involve crazy people killing their wife/girlfriend/couple, but never in my life have I heard about any person shooting lots of people in my country, never. They just can't. because there are no guns. There are crazy people of course, they just can't go on a rampage. Basically, if a crazy people has: Nothing - He will punch people, or hang himself. Forks, Brooms, Rakes, Whatever - He will attack someone with them Knives - He will knife someone, or himself. Guns - He will shoot one or more people, then shoot himself Fire - He will burn his house, preferably with others inside Explosives - He will blow something up So no guns, means he can't shoot people, it's that simple I think you are generalizing "crazy" people too much. There are some crazy people who kill for satisfaction (a la serial killer) and some people who go on a rampage (a la Conn. shooting). There is a reason why authorities have classifications for these, and even sub-classifications of sub-classifications. Also, this might come across as smartass-ish, but of course there are no shootings in your country if there are no guns...? If your country also so happens to be a country that doesn't have a very large military, that makes sense. And of course, that's how things spin. A country that has a large military, but doesn't allow its citizens to have arms might be considered oppressive. I'm not saying I believe that, but that's why this whole thing is not that simple.
That's the idea, if people don't have guns, then there's no shootings, and thus people don't die. This assuming of course the military doesn't turn on the people.
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On December 21 2012 02:24 jacosajh wrote:
Also (and I can't believe I didn't think about this sooner), not all suicide attempts are based on wanting a quick painless out. In fact, a lot of people committing suicide seem to want to "savor" in some twisted way I don't understand, passing from this life.
I understand there are many steps between being stressed out, and wanting to shoot up a school. My point is, that regardless of where people are on the spectrum, they can disguise it. You dont know what they are thinking. What do you hear from the people that knew the killer in almost all of these cases?
"He was a nice person, he was polite, I cant believe he did this" etc....
If you think its easy to identify these people, I dont know what to say to you. Its much easier to put the pieces together after they exhibit their behaviour, and there is a full, in depth investigation done. Its not so easy to identify prior to that.
Edit* And Esk, you are really starting to get on my nerves. YOU are the one arguing that there is 1 factor in gun crimes, and it is that mental people get guns. I am the one saying that is only 1 issue amongst a whole other list of issues, some of which I pointed out. I am saying in all of my posts that you need to look at every angle, not just one. Yes, it would be great to remove factorss that lead people to committing suicide, I never said it isnt. Nor did I say removing guns will make suicide go away. You are throwing out arguments I am not making.
My point is, identifying people that may be capable of committing murder, and not selling them a gun is NOT an all encompassing solution for solving gun crime. You will only ever identify a few of them, and most of them will still acquire firearms as they do now. You need to change many other things also.
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Ok TL, time to be realistic. Should Americans be able to buy fully automatic rifles at Wal Mart? No, obviously not. But what exactly is the plan of all of you liberals that despise Americas gun culture?
Do you plan to make ammo cost a fortune? The killer will max out his credit card, whats he got to lose. Plan on confiscating all weapons? Yeah, your Democratic party can literally kiss its ass goodbye(the American moderate will jump back to the Republicans).
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On December 21 2012 02:30 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:24 jacosajh wrote:
Also (and I can't believe I didn't think about this sooner), not all suicide attempts are based on wanting a quick painless out. In fact, a lot of people committing suicide seem to want to "savor" in some twisted way I don't understand, passing from this life. I understand there are many steps between being stressed out, and wanting to shoot up a school. My point is, that regardless of where people are on the spectrum, they can disguise it. You dont know what they are thinking. What do you hear from the people that knew the killer in almost all of these cases? "He was a nice person, he was polite, I cant believe he did this" etc.... If you think its easy to identify these people, I dont know what to say to you. Its much easier to put the pieces together after they exhibit their behaviour, and there is a full, in depth investigation done. Its not so easy to identify prior to that. Edit* And Esk, you are really starting to get on my nerves. YOU are the one arguing that there is 1 factor in gun crimes, and it is that mental people get guns. I am the one saying that is only 1 issue amongst a whole other list of issues, some of which I pointed out. I am saying in all of my posts that you need to look at every angle, not just one. Yes, it would be great to remove factorss that lead people to committing suicide, I never said it isnt. Nor did I say removing guns will make suicide go away. You are throwing out arguments I am not making. My point is, identifying people that may be capable of committing murder, and not selling them a gun is NOT an all encompassing solution for solving gun crime. You will only ever identify a few of them, and most of them will still acquire firearms as they do now. You need to change many other things also.
And that's why I think the focus needs to be on fixing cultural issues. So we don't have the "oh my jimmy was so nice i can't believe it" while he stocked up thousands of bullets, gas masks and smoke bombs, etc. I agree, identifying those types of people in current culture will be close to impossible. But, there might not be a need for it if we just raised our children properly. And we all need to be doing that, whether you're a teacher, police man, candy store guy, etc. Whether you have children of your own or not, you are contributing to the future of your society in one way, shape, or form.
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On December 21 2012 02:36 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:30 Focuspants wrote:On December 21 2012 02:24 jacosajh wrote:
Also (and I can't believe I didn't think about this sooner), not all suicide attempts are based on wanting a quick painless out. In fact, a lot of people committing suicide seem to want to "savor" in some twisted way I don't understand, passing from this life. I understand there are many steps between being stressed out, and wanting to shoot up a school. My point is, that regardless of where people are on the spectrum, they can disguise it. You dont know what they are thinking. What do you hear from the people that knew the killer in almost all of these cases? "He was a nice person, he was polite, I cant believe he did this" etc.... If you think its easy to identify these people, I dont know what to say to you. Its much easier to put the pieces together after they exhibit their behaviour, and there is a full, in depth investigation done. Its not so easy to identify prior to that. Edit* And Esk, you are really starting to get on my nerves. YOU are the one arguing that there is 1 factor in gun crimes, and it is that mental people get guns. I am the one saying that is only 1 issue amongst a whole other list of issues, some of which I pointed out. I am saying in all of my posts that you need to look at every angle, not just one. Yes, it would be great to remove factorss that lead people to committing suicide, I never said it isnt. Nor did I say removing guns will make suicide go away. You are throwing out arguments I am not making. My point is, identifying people that may be capable of committing murder, and not selling them a gun is NOT an all encompassing solution for solving gun crime. You will only ever identify a few of them, and most of them will still acquire firearms as they do now. You need to change many other things also. And that's why I think the focus needs to be on fixing cultural issues. So we don't have the "oh my jimmy was so nice i can't believe it" while he stocked up thousands of bullets, gas masks and smoke bombs, etc. I agree, identifying those types of people in current culture will be close to impossible. But, there might not be a need for it if we just raised our children properly. And we all need to be doing that, whether you're a teacher, police man, candy store guy, etc. Whether you have children of your own or not, you are contributing to the future of your society in one way, shape, or form.
I think you and I agree on most things related to this issue, my argument is with Esk, who thinks he solved the problem infront of his computer today, and that everyone else is dumb and blind to how easy it is to fix gun violence in America.
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On December 21 2012 02:39 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:36 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 02:30 Focuspants wrote:On December 21 2012 02:24 jacosajh wrote:
Also (and I can't believe I didn't think about this sooner), not all suicide attempts are based on wanting a quick painless out. In fact, a lot of people committing suicide seem to want to "savor" in some twisted way I don't understand, passing from this life. I understand there are many steps between being stressed out, and wanting to shoot up a school. My point is, that regardless of where people are on the spectrum, they can disguise it. You dont know what they are thinking. What do you hear from the people that knew the killer in almost all of these cases? "He was a nice person, he was polite, I cant believe he did this" etc.... If you think its easy to identify these people, I dont know what to say to you. Its much easier to put the pieces together after they exhibit their behaviour, and there is a full, in depth investigation done. Its not so easy to identify prior to that. Edit* And Esk, you are really starting to get on my nerves. YOU are the one arguing that there is 1 factor in gun crimes, and it is that mental people get guns. I am the one saying that is only 1 issue amongst a whole other list of issues, some of which I pointed out. I am saying in all of my posts that you need to look at every angle, not just one. Yes, it would be great to remove factorss that lead people to committing suicide, I never said it isnt. Nor did I say removing guns will make suicide go away. You are throwing out arguments I am not making. My point is, identifying people that may be capable of committing murder, and not selling them a gun is NOT an all encompassing solution for solving gun crime. You will only ever identify a few of them, and most of them will still acquire firearms as they do now. You need to change many other things also. And that's why I think the focus needs to be on fixing cultural issues. So we don't have the "oh my jimmy was so nice i can't believe it" while he stocked up thousands of bullets, gas masks and smoke bombs, etc. I agree, identifying those types of people in current culture will be close to impossible. But, there might not be a need for it if we just raised our children properly. And we all need to be doing that, whether you're a teacher, police man, candy store guy, etc. Whether you have children of your own or not, you are contributing to the future of your society in one way, shape, or form. I think you and I agree on most things related to this issue, my argument is with Esk, who thinks he solved the problem infront of his computer today, and that everyone else is dumb and blind to how easy it is to fix gun violence in America.
I'm actually giving a valid cause for all the violence, drugs. You on the other hand think the solution is to take the rights of more and more people away. If you base your thinking on "most people are bad" then of course these "solutions" seem valid to yourself. I go by the realization that most people are GOOD, crime and violence is committed by a very few in comparison to the majority, so why would I think up solutions that punish the majority when it's the few who are causing the problems.
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On December 21 2012 02:47 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:39 Focuspants wrote:On December 21 2012 02:36 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 02:30 Focuspants wrote:On December 21 2012 02:24 jacosajh wrote:
Also (and I can't believe I didn't think about this sooner), not all suicide attempts are based on wanting a quick painless out. In fact, a lot of people committing suicide seem to want to "savor" in some twisted way I don't understand, passing from this life. I understand there are many steps between being stressed out, and wanting to shoot up a school. My point is, that regardless of where people are on the spectrum, they can disguise it. You dont know what they are thinking. What do you hear from the people that knew the killer in almost all of these cases? "He was a nice person, he was polite, I cant believe he did this" etc.... If you think its easy to identify these people, I dont know what to say to you. Its much easier to put the pieces together after they exhibit their behaviour, and there is a full, in depth investigation done. Its not so easy to identify prior to that. Edit* And Esk, you are really starting to get on my nerves. YOU are the one arguing that there is 1 factor in gun crimes, and it is that mental people get guns. I am the one saying that is only 1 issue amongst a whole other list of issues, some of which I pointed out. I am saying in all of my posts that you need to look at every angle, not just one. Yes, it would be great to remove factorss that lead people to committing suicide, I never said it isnt. Nor did I say removing guns will make suicide go away. You are throwing out arguments I am not making. My point is, identifying people that may be capable of committing murder, and not selling them a gun is NOT an all encompassing solution for solving gun crime. You will only ever identify a few of them, and most of them will still acquire firearms as they do now. You need to change many other things also. And that's why I think the focus needs to be on fixing cultural issues. So we don't have the "oh my jimmy was so nice i can't believe it" while he stocked up thousands of bullets, gas masks and smoke bombs, etc. I agree, identifying those types of people in current culture will be close to impossible. But, there might not be a need for it if we just raised our children properly. And we all need to be doing that, whether you're a teacher, police man, candy store guy, etc. Whether you have children of your own or not, you are contributing to the future of your society in one way, shape, or form. I think you and I agree on most things related to this issue, my argument is with Esk, who thinks he solved the problem infront of his computer today, and that everyone else is dumb and blind to how easy it is to fix gun violence in America. I'm actually giving a valid cause for all the violence, drugs. You on the other hand think the solution is to take the rights of more and more people away. If you base your thinking on "most people are bad" then of course these "solutions" seem valid to yourself. I go by the realization that most people are GOOD, crime and violence is committed by a very few in comparison to the majority, so why would I think up solutions that punish the majority when it's the few who are causing the problems.
Because a lot of the "bad guys" emerge from the majority. Most people dont go buying a gun specifically to commit a crime with. Many people may have a gun they intended to use only for self defense, or hunting, or collecting, etc... There is almost always an event that triggers someone to do the bad things they do. A man who kills his wife and kids then takes his own life with a firearm, likely bought the gun to defend them, but turned it on them when his wife cheated on him, filed for a divorce, and is threatening to take his kids.
Do you get what I am saying. You cant look at each person thats buying a gun, and see that they are going to commit a crime with it and not sell it to them. You dont know if they are or arent on drugs, do or dont have a mental or personal disorder. You dont know if an event that would trigger them to do harm to others will occur in their life. Why even bother with the risk of this? Guns are not worth the lives they take. They hurt more people than they protect. If you want to allow guns, but minimize the bad that comes of that (because we all know some bad will come of it), then you need to be extremely harsh, rigid and thorough with the laws and circumstances surrounding their accessibility. The fact of the matter is, thats not the case in the US, and you feel the effects of that.
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So I have to ask Focuspants, whats your solution?
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On December 21 2012 03:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
So I have to ask Focuspants, whats your solution?
Well first off, we cut down illegal distributions (which happen with frightful frequency, just google "illegal firearm sales") and the incredibly "loose" handling of firearm sales at events like gun shows. There is an excellent place to start.
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On December 21 2012 01:12 mcc wrote:
According to the same statistics US IS riddled with crime and death compared to other first world nations, there is no point in denying it. It is getting better and you are no Colombia or South Africa, but you are pretty dysfunctional society considering level of wealth of the country.
Riddled with crime and death... come on Mr Sensational.. I'm told that I should worry for my safety should I travel to the CR.. my government tells me your country is "riddled" with crime towards tourist.. After reading the Department of States CR information it will be a place I won't ever be going..
On December 21 2012 02:34 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
Ok TL, time to be realistic. Should Americans be able to buy fully automatic rifles at Wal Mart? No, obviously not.
Why not? If I want to spend my hard earned money on a weapon that can fire 900 rounds in under a minute why shouldn't I be allowed to? I have done nothing ever in my life time to show I shouldn't have such a weapon. Do I have a practical use for a weapon like that? Nope.. but I don't see the practical use for people to have 5 cars in a household of 3... or for 1 family to have houses all around the country..
I should be able to buy any gun I wish as long as I have proven that I'm not a risk... And saying I might be a risk in the future doesn't cut it because it can't be proven.. If I can legally buy a sound suppressor then why can't I buy a modern automatic rifle?
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On December 21 2012 03:04 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
So I have to ask Focuspants, whats your solution? Well first off, we cut down illegal distributions (which happen with frightful frequency, just google "illegal firearm sales") and the incredibly "loose" handling of firearm sales at events like gun shows. There is an excellent place to start.
I see, but whats your endgame? Take away all weapons eventually? Is there no moderation?
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On December 21 2012 03:05 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:04 farvacola wrote:On December 21 2012 03:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
So I have to ask Focuspants, whats your solution? Well first off, we cut down illegal distributions (which happen with frightful frequency, just google "illegal firearm sales") and the incredibly "loose" handling of firearm sales at events like gun shows. There is an excellent place to start. I see, but whats your endgame? Take away all weapons eventually? Is there no moderation?
lol, read the thread if you want to put words in peoples mouth dude, I amongst many others have made it clear that removing all weapons is not a reasonable opinion, not within the scope of the next few decades at least. In the meantime, there are tons of things we can do to cut down on the pervasion of firearms, gun show regulation and refunding community gun turn ins being merely two of them.
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On December 21 2012 03:08 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:05 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:On December 21 2012 03:04 farvacola wrote:On December 21 2012 03:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
So I have to ask Focuspants, whats your solution? Well first off, we cut down illegal distributions (which happen with frightful frequency, just google "illegal firearm sales") and the incredibly "loose" handling of firearm sales at events like gun shows. There is an excellent place to start. I see, but whats your endgame? Take away all weapons eventually? Is there no moderation? lol, read the thread if you want to put words in peoples mouth dude, I amongst many others have made it clear that removing all weapons is not a reasonable opinion, not within the scope of the next few decades at least. In the meantime, there are tons of things we can do to cut down on the pervasion of firearms, gun show regulation and refunding community gun turn ins being merely two of them.
Read your post mate. "Not within the next few decades at least. In the meantime..."
So your endgame is to get rid of all weapons eventually? Good luck with that.
AmericanNIghtmare, I see your point, but I also see the other sides with some amount of moderation and limits on fully auto weapons
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On December 21 2012 03:10 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:08 farvacola wrote:On December 21 2012 03:05 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:On December 21 2012 03:04 farvacola wrote:On December 21 2012 03:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
So I have to ask Focuspants, whats your solution? Well first off, we cut down illegal distributions (which happen with frightful frequency, just google "illegal firearm sales") and the incredibly "loose" handling of firearm sales at events like gun shows. There is an excellent place to start. I see, but whats your endgame? Take away all weapons eventually? Is there no moderation? lol, read the thread if you want to put words in peoples mouth dude, I amongst many others have made it clear that removing all weapons is not a reasonable opinion, not within the scope of the next few decades at least. In the meantime, there are tons of things we can do to cut down on the pervasion of firearms, gun show regulation and refunding community gun turn ins being merely two of them. Read your post mate. "Not within the next few decades at least. In the meantime..." So your endgame is to get rid of all weapons eventually? Good luck with that. AmericanNIghtmare, I see your point, but I also see the other sides with some amount of moderation and limits on fully auto weapons
Excellent comprehension, mate, but you've missed the part where I simply said that the opinion of removing firearms might be reasonable in a few decades. Again, read the thread your posting in.
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On December 21 2012 03:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:10 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:On December 21 2012 03:08 farvacola wrote:On December 21 2012 03:05 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:On December 21 2012 03:04 farvacola wrote:On December 21 2012 03:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
So I have to ask Focuspants, whats your solution? Well first off, we cut down illegal distributions (which happen with frightful frequency, just google "illegal firearm sales") and the incredibly "loose" handling of firearm sales at events like gun shows. There is an excellent place to start. I see, but whats your endgame? Take away all weapons eventually? Is there no moderation? lol, read the thread if you want to put words in peoples mouth dude, I amongst many others have made it clear that removing all weapons is not a reasonable opinion, not within the scope of the next few decades at least. In the meantime, there are tons of things we can do to cut down on the pervasion of firearms, gun show regulation and refunding community gun turn ins being merely two of them. Read your post mate. "Not within the next few decades at least. In the meantime..." So your endgame is to get rid of all weapons eventually? Good luck with that. AmericanNIghtmare, I see your point, but I also see the other sides with some amount of moderation and limits on fully auto weapons Excellent comprehension, mate, but you've missed the part where I simply said that the opinion of removing firearms might be reasonable in a few decades. Again, read the thread your posting in.
Well that makes more sense then. Forgive me for not digging through 288 pages to get caught up on everyones opinion on the matter
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EPT
