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On December 20 2012 21:30 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 21:22 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On December 20 2012 21:11 HunterX11 wrote:On December 20 2012 20:47 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:UK has some of the strictest gun laws in the developed world yet has the highest violent crime rate per capita in Europe and also higher than the USA, Canada, Australia and even South Africa.Please stop pushing this hoax that banning guns will create a happy clappy utopia. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.htmlBy Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent 7:00AM BST 02 Jul 2009 Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power. The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. That's a pretty worthless statistic without a definition of what constitutes "violent crime" and indeed whether they are even using police reports or surveys etc. Last year, by the way, the UK had thirty-nine gun homicides. 39. For comparison, I live next to a Chicago neighborhood that has had at least 17 gun homicides this year, out of a population of just under 100,000. Saying that the UK is more violent than the US is farcical. edit: It is worth pointing out that Chicago has had some of the strictest gun control in the U.S., which obviously does little if anything. But that doesn't mean that gun control doesn't work in other places such as the U.K., because clearly it does. Well it obviously doesn't work as a deterrant for crime since the violent crime stats are so bad in the UK no? Chicago proves my point, gangs and other criminal elements will always get their hands on guns like they get their hands on illegal drugs.Especially in a country that already has 300 million guns, to call for a ban on guns in a country with that many guns is what is farcical. Anyway i have heard they are looking at restricting knife use in the UK more.Taking the lead from China where the odd crazy person sometimes goes on a killing rampage in a school too?
An attacker named Wu Huanming (吴环明), 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010
I agree that gun control can't do that much in the U.S., but it is hard to argue that it isn't effective in countries like the U.K. with not only lower gun crime rates but lower homicide rates.
Situation in the UK is still deteriorating.Gun crime up 35% in one year.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/12/11/gun-crime-soars-in-england-where-guns-are-banned-n1464528
The Government's latest crime figures were condemned as "truly terrible" by the Tories today as it emerged that gun crime in England and Wales soared by 35% last year.
Criminals used handguns in 46% more offences, Home Office statistics revealed.
Firearms were used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the 12 months to last April, up from 7,362.
It was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise and there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year than the previous peak in 1993.
Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.
Unadjusted figures showed overall recorded crime in the 12 months to last September rose 9.3%, but the Home Office stressed that new procedures had skewed the figures.
Shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin said: "These figures are truly terrible.
"Despite the street crime initiative, robbery is massively up. So are gun-related crimes, domestic burglary, retail burglary, and drug offenses.
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Low violent crime & gun incidents in Switzerland prove that guns themselves are not the problem but people with mental problems often on strong medications are.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm
Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.
The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.
In addition to the government-provided arms, there are few restrictions on buying weapons. Some cantons restrict the carrying of firearms - others do not.
The government even sells off surplus weaponry to the general public when new equipment is introduced.
Guns and shooting are popular national pastimes. More than 200,000 Swiss attend national annual marksmanship competitions.
But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare. There are only minimal controls at public buildings and politicians rarely have police protection.
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Yeah my apologies, not sure why that old news is being posted as new news everywhere.
![[image loading]](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/19/article-2039269-0DFCB08000000578-302_468x502.jpg)
USA : Murders down from 24,700 to 14,700 in 20 years since 1991 despite gun sales reaching new records the past five years.Why?
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stop trolling, you have already proven that you have no understanding of statistics whatsoever. Too many people post a gazillion of statistics without the ability of making valid conclusions from them.
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On December 20 2012 22:30 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Yeah my apologies, not sure why that old news is being posted as new news everywhere. USA : Murders down from 24,700 to 14,700 in 20 years since 1991 despite gun sales reaching new records the past five years.Why?
you do realize that you don't need a gun to kill some1 right? the statistics you post mean nothing without the percentage of those murders done with guns. Not to mention, you're linking something from the Daily Mail, hahaha.
NotSureIfTrollingOrJustStupid.jpg
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On December 20 2012 22:19 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Low violent crime & gun incidents in Switzerland prove that guns themselves are not the problem but people with mental problems often on strong medications are. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stmShow nested quote +Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.
The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.
In addition to the government-provided arms, there are few restrictions on buying weapons. Some cantons restrict the carrying of firearms - others do not.
The government even sells off surplus weaponry to the general public when new equipment is introduced.
Guns and shooting are popular national pastimes. More than 200,000 Swiss attend national annual marksmanship competitions.
But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare. There are only minimal controls at public buildings and politicians rarely have police protection.
On December 20 2012 22:19 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Low violent crime & gun incidents in Switzerland prove that guns themselves are not the problem but people with mental problems often on strong medications are. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stmShow nested quote +Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.
The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.
In addition to the government-provided arms, there are few restrictions on buying weapons. Some cantons restrict the carrying of firearms - others do not.
The government even sells off surplus weaponry to the general public when new equipment is introduced.
Guns and shooting are popular national pastimes. More than 200,000 Swiss attend national annual marksmanship competitions.
But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare. There are only minimal controls at public buildings and politicians rarely have police protection.
... meh ... I won't try to find statistics to refute you but just from my ~30 years "here"":
1: Switzerland has about 8 Mio. people atm. But the 6 Million could be "actual" Swiss, so ok.
2: Where the guns come from, to keep it simple:
Every Swiss male has to go to the military. ~2 - 2.5 Mio men of which actually about ~65% serve in the Military. That alone puts us roughly at ~1'200'000+++ Guns.
These 1.2 Mio+++. Rifles/Guns had, until very recently, to be kept at home after military duty WHITEOUT ammunition... Add hunting rifles on top of that and you get an absurdly high amount of guns per capita, most of them never ever fire a shot outside of mandatory military duties.
3: I have never even seen a pistol on a civilian in Switzerland.
4: The marksmanship competitions are more like big parties. Most people attending them aren't firing a single shot. I also wouldn't call shooting a "common" hobby... I actually know no one that does it often/seriously and I come from a pretty conservative canton.
No one I know would consider getting a gun for safety reasons. Alone the idea sounds totally absurd to me.
Well.. I also grew up in a house were at all times was at least 1 door open, i actuallly "learned" to take keys with me when i got my car, never needed one before...
We got robbed ones, when we were sleeping. They took what they saw in the first room they entered and left again... Because thats what thieves do... Grab stuff and vanish before it becomes dangerous... I would consider shooting them for that a little harsh (i'm fine with beating them up tho  )...
But well... I guess it's mainly a mentality thing. Make jokes about "neutrality" all you want but in general Swiss people just dislike conflict and we are a rather "introvert" society, people tend to keep to themselves and their friends/families, which leads, surprisingly , to less (bloody) conflicts/fights than in the US where the mentality seems to be very different.
It might also help that there is nearly no REAL poverty here, there are no "slums/ghettos"... In short: Social security actually grants REAL security.
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Ok.. read only a few post but got the gist..
Should people be allowed to own and carry guns... Yes and Yes.. Being from the United States, a resident of Texas, it's very important to have a firearm.. I live in an area where home invasions are a reality.. Now I bet it's swell to live in a place where you don't have to even give a thought about something like this, but I do but I wouldn't leave.
There is a saying,"Hope for the best, expect the worst." I hope I never have to shot another person, but I expect myself not to hesitate to defend the children under my care or my wife.. even though she carries herself. (She's not from the U.S.)
I find it troubling that the rest of the world has to hear the news that is selected by the media to make the U.S. seem like a nation riddled with crime and death. It's not. What you need to realize is that most of us here in the U.S. don't want to be like you. So quit trying to make everyone the same. See here if you don't agree with the way things are in your area you can move.. there are states where you can move to and not have to fear over someone walking around with a concealed gun. That's one of the best things about the U.S. If you don't like the local\state laws then you can move to an area where the laws suit your preference. So please stop trying to drag us into some global collective because the overwhelming majority will fight back kicking, screaming, and shooting.
The U.S. doesn't need it's guns removed.. it needs law enforcement to do their job and crack down on illegal gun and those who do illegal sales.. But do you really think they want to when they allowed 2k guns to be sold to cartels. To be honest, our gun laws don't need fixing.. our executive branch and law enforcement needs it.
Crime in down here.. that undeniable.. Why would the FBI lie about that? If there were 386 violent crimes per 100k people (in 2011).. and of that 1.2% were murders.. 67% of those involve firearms... that's like 3.5 people per 100k were murdered with a gun.. I can handle that number.
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Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs:
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php
There's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link.
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On December 20 2012 22:30 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Yeah my apologies, not sure why that old news is being posted as new news everywhere. USA : Murders down from 24,700 to 14,700 in 20 years since 1991 despite gun sales reaching new records the past five years.Why?
I read somewhere that number of gun owners actually steadily declines in US, just number of guns increases. That might also be part of the mechanism behind it.
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On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link.
That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one.
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On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one.
It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see.
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On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link.
It's not just drugs. There are some deeply imbedded American cultural issues as well.
I'm proud to be American, but I am ashamed that Americans are so used to dealing with symptoms, not the sickness
Bullies at school? Make organizations against bullying and possibly make bullies feel worse. Don't deal with family issues.
Kids can't concentrate? Give them pills. Don't try to find ways of engaging their interest -- which leads too...
Too many people hooked on drugs? Call it some kind of disease/disability. Don't try to actually find an effective rehabilitation process.
White collar workers committing fraud? Moar laws. Don't revamp the educational system and corporate culture, and I don't know... maybe the compensation system. (i.e. Icarus Paradox)
etc. etc.
Sadly, it's the American way.
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On December 21 2012 01:05 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. It's not just drugs. There are some deeply imbedded American cultural issues as well. I'm proud to be American, but I am ashamed that Americans are so used to dealing with symptoms, not the sickness Bullies at school? Make organizations against bullying and possibly make bullies feel worse. Don't deal with family issues. Kids can't concentrate? Give them pills. Don't try to find ways of engaging their interest -- which leads too... Too many people hooked on drugs? Call it some kind of disease/disability. Don't try to actually find an effective rehabilitation process. White collar workers committing fraud? Moar laws. Don't revamp the educational system and corporate culture, and I don't know... maybe the compensation system. etc. etc. Sadly, it's the American way.
The culture of putting everyone on drugs for some disability or problem or issue IS NOT AMERICAN CULTURE.
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On December 21 2012 01:08 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:05 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. It's not just drugs. There are some deeply imbedded American cultural issues as well. I'm proud to be American, but I am ashamed that Americans are so used to dealing with symptoms, not the sickness Bullies at school? Make organizations against bullying and possibly make bullies feel worse. Don't deal with family issues. Kids can't concentrate? Give them pills. Don't try to find ways of engaging their interest -- which leads too... Too many people hooked on drugs? Call it some kind of disease/disability. Don't try to actually find an effective rehabilitation process. White collar workers committing fraud? Moar laws. Don't revamp the educational system and corporate culture, and I don't know... maybe the compensation system. etc. etc. Sadly, it's the American way. The culture of putting everyone on drugs for some disability or problem or issue IS NOT AMERICAN CULTURE.
What would you describe it then? I'm really curious. Would you describe it as the "world's culture?" Or are you saying it's not a problem within American culture period?
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Guns are too rooted into the US culture to be removed right now, particuarly since if one government does, they will probably lose the next election and the new government will reinstate freedom to own and carry guns and they'll be back to the same problem. I fail to understand how people can be so blind. It's pretty obvious violent crimes with guns are related to the amount of people having a gun. In my countries not even criminals hold guns (at least most of them don't). They'll try to kill you with a knife or by beating you up, but they won't shoot you, and since the former options take a lot more effort and risk to actually get the kill, that logically results in less deaths by crimes. Crazy people here kill themselves, they don't go on murdering onslaughts, simply because without a gun you just can't do it, it's just not possible.
It's just how people in the US live apparently. I'm just happy I don't live there and have no reason to go there except for small periods of time, which I feel are vastly more dangerous than even the nastiest neighborhood in my country.
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On December 21 2012 00:52 AmericanNightmare wrote:
Ok.. read only a few post but got the gist..
Should people be allowed to own and carry guns... Yes and Yes.. Being from the United States, a resident of Texas, it's very important to have a firearm.. I live in an area where home invasions are a reality.. Now I bet it's swell to live in a place where you don't have to even give a thought about something like this, but I do but I wouldn't leave.
There is a saying,"Hope for the best, expect the worst." I hope I never have to shot another person, but I expect myself not to hesitate to defend the children under my care or my wife.. even though she carries herself. (She's not from the U.S.)
I find it troubling that the rest of the world has to hear the news that is selected by the media to make the U.S. seem like a nation riddled with crime and death. It's not. What you need to realize is that most of us here in the U.S. don't want to be like you. So quit trying to make everyone the same. See here if you don't agree with the way things are in your area you can move.. there are states where you can move to and not have to fear over someone walking around with a concealed gun. That's one of the best things about the U.S. If you don't like the local\state laws then you can move to an area where the laws suit your preference. So please stop trying to drag us into some global collective because the overwhelming majority will fight back kicking, screaming, and shooting.
The U.S. doesn't need it's guns removed.. it needs law enforcement to do their job and crack down on illegal gun and those who do illegal sales.. But do you really think they want to when they allowed 2k guns to be sold to cartels. To be honest, our gun laws don't need fixing.. our executive branch and law enforcement needs it.
Crime in down here.. that undeniable.. Why would the FBI lie about that? If there were 386 violent crimes per 100k people (in 2011).. and of that 1.2% were murders.. 67% of those involve firearms... that's like 3.5 people per 100k were murdered with a gun.. I can handle that number.
According to the same statistics US IS riddled with crime and death compared to other first world nations, there is no point in denying it. It is getting better and you are no Colombia or South Africa, but you are pretty dysfunctional society considering level of wealth of the country.
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On December 20 2012 22:19 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Low violent crime & gun incidents in Switzerland prove that guns themselves are not the problem but people with mental problems often on strong medications are. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stmShow nested quote +Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.
The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.
In addition to the government-provided arms, there are few restrictions on buying weapons. Some cantons restrict the carrying of firearms - others do not.
The government even sells off surplus weaponry to the general public when new equipment is introduced.
Guns and shooting are popular national pastimes. More than 200,000 Swiss attend national annual marksmanship competitions.
But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare. There are only minimal controls at public buildings and politicians rarely have police protection.
That story is nearly 12 years old...
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On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see.
Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex.
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