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On December 21 2012 01:11 mordk wrote:
Guns are too rooted into the US culture to be removed right now, particuarly since if one government does, they will probably lose the next election and the new government will reinstate freedom to own and carry guns and the they'll be back to the same problem. I fail to understand how people can be so blind. It's pretty obvious violent crimes with guns are related to the amount of people having a gun. In my countries not even criminals hold guns. They'll try to kill you with a knife or by beating you up, but they won't shoot you, and since the former options take a lot more effort and risk to actually get the kill, that logically results in less deaths by crimes. Crazy people here kill themselves, they don't go on murdering onslaughts, simply because without a gun you just can't do it, it's just not possible.
It's just how people in the US live apparently. I'm just happy I don't live there and have no reason to go there except for small periods of time, which I feel are vastly more dangerous than even the nastiest neighborhood in my country.
Whatttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt? Crazy things happen everywhere in the world.
Also, I find it amusing you think that. I like to think I'm pretty well-traveled and I don't feel safe in any country but the US. And, I moved here from another country.
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On December 21 2012 01:10 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:05 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. It's not just drugs. There are some deeply imbedded American cultural issues as well. I'm proud to be American, but I am ashamed that Americans are so used to dealing with symptoms, not the sickness Bullies at school? Make organizations against bullying and possibly make bullies feel worse. Don't deal with family issues. Kids can't concentrate? Give them pills. Don't try to find ways of engaging their interest -- which leads too... Too many people hooked on drugs? Call it some kind of disease/disability. Don't try to actually find an effective rehabilitation process. White collar workers committing fraud? Moar laws. Don't revamp the educational system and corporate culture, and I don't know... maybe the compensation system. etc. etc. Sadly, it's the American way. The culture of putting everyone on drugs for some disability or problem or issue IS NOT AMERICAN CULTURE. What would you describe it then? I'm really curious. Would you describe it as the "world's culture?" Or are you saying it's not a problem within American culture period?
It's a big problem, but I meant that it was never true American culture to be drugging everyone over every little issue or problem. I swear they have drugs that they could find an excuse to put anyone on.
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On December 21 2012 01:14 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:11 mordk wrote:
Guns are too rooted into the US culture to be removed right now, particuarly since if one government does, they will probably lose the next election and the new government will reinstate freedom to own and carry guns and the they'll be back to the same problem. I fail to understand how people can be so blind. It's pretty obvious violent crimes with guns are related to the amount of people having a gun. In my countries not even criminals hold guns. They'll try to kill you with a knife or by beating you up, but they won't shoot you, and since the former options take a lot more effort and risk to actually get the kill, that logically results in less deaths by crimes. Crazy people here kill themselves, they don't go on murdering onslaughts, simply because without a gun you just can't do it, it's just not possible.
It's just how people in the US live apparently. I'm just happy I don't live there and have no reason to go there except for small periods of time, which I feel are vastly more dangerous than even the nastiest neighborhood in my country. Whatttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt? Crazy things happen everywhere in the world. Also, I find it amusing you think that. I like to think I'm pretty well-traveled and I don't feel safe in any country but the US. And, I moved here from another country.
I don't remember a single, just one, ONE thing like that in my country. The worst crimes here involve crazy people killing their wife/girlfriend/couple, but never in my life have I heard about any person shooting lots of people in my country, never. They just can't. because there are no guns.
There are crazy people of course, they just can't go on a rampage.
Basically, if a crazy people has:
Nothing - He will punch people, or hang himself.
Forks, Brooms, Rakes, Whatever - He will attack someone with them
Knives - He will knife someone, or himself.
Guns - He will shoot one or more people, then shoot himself
Fire - He will burn his house, preferably with others inside
Explosives - He will blow something up
So no guns, means he can't shoot people, it's that simple
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On December 21 2012 01:14 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:11 mordk wrote:
Guns are too rooted into the US culture to be removed right now, particuarly since if one government does, they will probably lose the next election and the new government will reinstate freedom to own and carry guns and the they'll be back to the same problem. I fail to understand how people can be so blind. It's pretty obvious violent crimes with guns are related to the amount of people having a gun. In my countries not even criminals hold guns. They'll try to kill you with a knife or by beating you up, but they won't shoot you, and since the former options take a lot more effort and risk to actually get the kill, that logically results in less deaths by crimes. Crazy people here kill themselves, they don't go on murdering onslaughts, simply because without a gun you just can't do it, it's just not possible.
It's just how people in the US live apparently. I'm just happy I don't live there and have no reason to go there except for small periods of time, which I feel are vastly more dangerous than even the nastiest neighborhood in my country. Whatttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt? Crazy things happen everywhere in the world. Also, I find it amusing you think that. I like to think I'm pretty well-traveled and I don't feel safe in any country but the US. And, I moved here from another country.
The only country in EU I would be similarly afraid as in US would be UK, specifically some parts of London and some areas in France. Of course this is generalized statement, there are plenty of areas in US where you can be reasonably safe. So I am interested where did you move to US from and what countries did you travel ?
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On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex.
So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2.
What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes.
Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not.
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On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not.
You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US.
Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here).
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On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here).
Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong.
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides
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On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not.
Not having guns will make most criminals engage in less dangerous crimes, probably resulting in less deaths. Here, if they mug you in the street, you just get punched, maybe take a big hit and need to go to a hospital. If that same criminal has a gun, it's a high chance you're dead.
Even in my country, whenever any type of crime involves someone with a gun, there's just a higher chance of someone ending up dead or severely injured.
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On December 21 2012 01:38 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here). Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong. http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides
Suicide is another interesting topic. People who own guns are more likely to die in a suicide (because they are more likely successful), there was a study linked in this thread I think. Whether that's good or bad or not that bad is again a bit difficult to decide.
Your links to ssristories do not show anything if you do not have a complete list of all incidents (with and without drug or suicide).
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On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not.
People in Switzerland also eat more cheese and produce more watches. Your grasp of statistical evidence and causality vs correlation is non-existent.
People who use guns to murder others are sometimes crazy and sometimes not. So no, your first assumption is already wrong. Your other inferences are similarly wrong. There are plenty of multiple murderers that are not on drugs or drugs have absolutely no impact on their murders and are not mentally insane.
What I am arguing is that blaming the difference in violence in US compared to let's say Switzerland solely (or even mostly) on drugs is simplistic and there is absolutely no proof that it is like that. Other than nonsensical correlations like my example with cheese and watches.
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You cant always detect if people have mental disorders. Most of the people that go on these rampages are "law-abiding citizens who have done nothing wrong" up until they actually commit their heinous rampage. I think you are grossly oversimplifying the "solution" to this problem. It isnt a single thing that needs to change. There are many steps that need to be taken. Some things related to drug use and availability need to change, identifying people with mental and personality disorders needs to become more important, there needs to be a much stricter and more in depth screening process before selling a firearm, there needs to be better training. Extremely deadly weapons with large magazines capable of mowing down many people in an instant need to be removed from society. There are a ton of steps that need to be taken in order to start dealing with this problem. Its not as easy as blaming one thing for all of it like you think.
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On December 21 2012 01:45 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. People in Switzerland also eat more cheese and produce more watches. Your grasp of statistical evidence and causality vs correlation is non-existent. People who use guns to murder others are sometimes crazy and sometimes not. So no, your first assumption is already wrong. Your other inferences are similarly wrong. There are plenty of multiple murderers that are not on drugs or drugs have absolutely no impact on their murders and are not mentally insane. What I am arguing is that blaming the difference in violence in US compared to let's say Switzerland solely (or even mostly) on drugs is simplistic and there is absolutely no proof that it is like that. Other than nonsensical correlations like my example with cheese and watches.
If you're a moron and think cheese and watches have an impact on violence then you can. You just posted that murderers are "sometimes insane, sometimes not." At this point I'm not even taking you seriously anymore. Murder is insanity, unlawful killing of someone is insane. How is murder not insane? Killing in self defense is different.
If you want to put silly things like cheese and watches on the same scale of drugs, clearly, you have no idea what the effects of drugs are:
"The Physicians' Desk Reference lists the following adverse reactions (side effects) to antidepressants among a host of other physical and neuropsychiatric effects. None of these adverse reactions (side effects) is listed as Rare. They are all listed as either Frequent or as Infrequent:"
Manic Reaction (Mania, e.g., Kleptomania, Pyromania, Dipsomania, Nymphomania)
Hypomania (e.g., poor judgment, over spending, impulsivity, etc.)
Abnormal Thinking
Hallucinations
Personality Disorder
Amnesia
Agitation
Psychosis
Abnormal Dreams
Emotional Lability (Or Instability)
Alcohol Abuse and/or Craving
Hostility
Paranoid Reactions
Confusion
Delusions
Sleep Disorders
Akathisia (Severe Inner Restlessness)
Discontinuation (Withdrawal) Syndrome
Impulsivity
http://www.ssristories.com/index.html
I don't believe "Cheese and watch making" have any bad side effects. Please stop being stupid and compare the side effects of drugs to cheese and watch making.
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On December 21 2012 01:16 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:10 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 01:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:05 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. It's not just drugs. There are some deeply imbedded American cultural issues as well. I'm proud to be American, but I am ashamed that Americans are so used to dealing with symptoms, not the sickness Bullies at school? Make organizations against bullying and possibly make bullies feel worse. Don't deal with family issues. Kids can't concentrate? Give them pills. Don't try to find ways of engaging their interest -- which leads too... Too many people hooked on drugs? Call it some kind of disease/disability. Don't try to actually find an effective rehabilitation process. White collar workers committing fraud? Moar laws. Don't revamp the educational system and corporate culture, and I don't know... maybe the compensation system. etc. etc. Sadly, it's the American way. The culture of putting everyone on drugs for some disability or problem or issue IS NOT AMERICAN CULTURE. What would you describe it then? I'm really curious. Would you describe it as the "world's culture?" Or are you saying it's not a problem within American culture period? It's a big problem, but I meant that it was never true American culture to be drugging everyone over every little issue or problem. I swear they have drugs that they could find an excuse to put anyone on.
I'm not sure I follow. It seems you agree that there are drugs that exist as excuses to put on anyone. But if we do that as a country, how is it not in our culture? I'm genuinely confused, maybe it's a matter of semantics. But in my experience (having ample exposure to education personally and professionally) as well as having a majority of my family in the medical field, I would consider it a cultural problem.
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On December 21 2012 01:45 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:38 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here). Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong. http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides Suicide is another interesting topic. People who own guns are more likely to die in a suicide (because they are more likely successful), there was a study linked in this thread I think. Whether that's good or bad or not that bad is again a bit difficult to decide. Your links to ssristories do not show anything if you do not have a complete list of all incidents (with and without drug or suicide).
People die from suicide 3-4 times more than they do from firearms. If I find a statistic that shows how many people who commit suicide are on drugs or psychiatric drugs I will post it.
If someone wants to commit suicide, they will do so with or without a gun.
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On December 21 2012 02:01 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:45 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:38 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here). Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong. http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides Suicide is another interesting topic. People who own guns are more likely to die in a suicide (because they are more likely successful), there was a study linked in this thread I think. Whether that's good or bad or not that bad is again a bit difficult to decide. Your links to ssristories do not show anything if you do not have a complete list of all incidents (with and without drug or suicide). People die from suicide 3-4 times more than they do from firearms. If I find a statistic that shows how many people who commit suicide are on drugs or psychiatric drugs I will post it. If someone wants to commit suicide, they will do so with or without a gun.
"The Harvard School of Mental Health just published the results of a study that examined the relationship between household firearms ownership and the rate of suicide. According to the study suicide among people 45 years of age and younger suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States. Among the 50 states in the United States, those with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of suicide among children, women and men.
It is important to understand, according to the study, that the higher rates of suicide among those who own guns has to do with the fact that guns are much more lethal than other methods of attempting suicide. What is troubling about this is that suicide attempts are viewed as a desperate call for help among those who are depressed or mentally ill with a psychotic illness. The rate of successful suicide completions is far less for people who use other methods than using a gun. For example, 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs. These people are found alive 97% of the time. Those who succeed in using drugs to attempt suicide are successful only 3% of the time. By contrast, more than 90% of all suicide attempts by use of firearms are successful. The bottom line is that anyone using a gun to commit suicide is not likely to have their call for help heard and responded to before its too late."
That is all you need to know. There is a chance to receive help if you survive. You dont survive if you use a gun. It is a waste of a potentially salvageable life.
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On December 21 2012 02:01 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:16 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:10 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 01:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:05 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. It's not just drugs. There are some deeply imbedded American cultural issues as well. I'm proud to be American, but I am ashamed that Americans are so used to dealing with symptoms, not the sickness Bullies at school? Make organizations against bullying and possibly make bullies feel worse. Don't deal with family issues. Kids can't concentrate? Give them pills. Don't try to find ways of engaging their interest -- which leads too... Too many people hooked on drugs? Call it some kind of disease/disability. Don't try to actually find an effective rehabilitation process. White collar workers committing fraud? Moar laws. Don't revamp the educational system and corporate culture, and I don't know... maybe the compensation system. etc. etc. Sadly, it's the American way. The culture of putting everyone on drugs for some disability or problem or issue IS NOT AMERICAN CULTURE. What would you describe it then? I'm really curious. Would you describe it as the "world's culture?" Or are you saying it's not a problem within American culture period? It's a big problem, but I meant that it was never true American culture to be drugging everyone over every little issue or problem. I swear they have drugs that they could find an excuse to put anyone on. I'm not sure I follow. It seems you agree that there are drugs that exist as excuses to put on anyone. But if we do that as a country, how is it not in our culture? I'm genuinely confused, maybe it's a matter of semantics. But in my experience (having ample exposure to education personally and professionally) as well as having a majority of my family in the medical field, I would consider it a cultural problem.
I just mean it wasn't traditionally American. You are right though, it is currently a cultural problem, worldwide not just in the US. In schools they are drugging kids while making up random "mental illnesses" as an excuse and it's getting worse.
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On December 21 2012 01:19 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 01:14 jacosajh wrote:On December 21 2012 01:11 mordk wrote:
Guns are too rooted into the US culture to be removed right now, particuarly since if one government does, they will probably lose the next election and the new government will reinstate freedom to own and carry guns and the they'll be back to the same problem. I fail to understand how people can be so blind. It's pretty obvious violent crimes with guns are related to the amount of people having a gun. In my countries not even criminals hold guns. They'll try to kill you with a knife or by beating you up, but they won't shoot you, and since the former options take a lot more effort and risk to actually get the kill, that logically results in less deaths by crimes. Crazy people here kill themselves, they don't go on murdering onslaughts, simply because without a gun you just can't do it, it's just not possible.
It's just how people in the US live apparently. I'm just happy I don't live there and have no reason to go there except for small periods of time, which I feel are vastly more dangerous than even the nastiest neighborhood in my country. Whatttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt? Crazy things happen everywhere in the world. Also, I find it amusing you think that. I like to think I'm pretty well-traveled and I don't feel safe in any country but the US. And, I moved here from another country. I don't remember a single, just one, ONE thing like that in my country. The worst crimes here involve crazy people killing their wife/girlfriend/couple, but never in my life have I heard about any person shooting lots of people in my country, never. They just can't. because there are no guns. There are crazy people of course, they just can't go on a rampage. Basically, if a crazy people has: Nothing - He will punch people, or hang himself. Forks, Brooms, Rakes, Whatever - He will attack someone with them Knives - He will knife someone, or himself. Guns - He will shoot one or more people, then shoot himself Fire - He will burn his house, preferably with others inside Explosives - He will blow something up So no guns, means he can't shoot people, it's that simple
I think you are generalizing "crazy" people too much. There are some crazy people who kill for satisfaction (a la serial killer) and some people who go on a rampage (a la Conn. shooting). There is a reason why authorities have classifications for these, and even sub-classifications of sub-classifications.
Also, this might come across as smartass-ish, but of course there are no shootings in your country if there are no guns...? If your country also so happens to be a country that doesn't have a very large military, that makes sense. And of course, that's how things spin. A country that has a large military, but doesn't allow its citizens to have arms might be considered oppressive. I'm not saying I believe that, but that's why this whole thing is not that simple.
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On December 21 2012 02:04 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:01 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:45 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:38 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here). Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong. http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides Suicide is another interesting topic. People who own guns are more likely to die in a suicide (because they are more likely successful), there was a study linked in this thread I think. Whether that's good or bad or not that bad is again a bit difficult to decide. Your links to ssristories do not show anything if you do not have a complete list of all incidents (with and without drug or suicide). People die from suicide 3-4 times more than they do from firearms. If I find a statistic that shows how many people who commit suicide are on drugs or psychiatric drugs I will post it. If someone wants to commit suicide, they will do so with or without a gun. "The Harvard School of Mental Health just published the results of a study that examined the relationship between household firearms ownership and the rate of suicide. According to the study suicide among people 45 years of age and younger suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States. Among the 50 states in the United States, those with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of suicide among children, women and men. It is important to understand, according to the study, that the higher rates of suicide among those who own guns has to do with the fact that guns are much more lethal than other methods of attempting suicide. What is troubling about this is that suicide attempts are viewed as a desperate call for help among those who are depressed or mentally ill with a psychotic illness. The rate of successful suicide completions is far less for people who use other methods than using a gun. For example, 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs. These people are found alive 97% of the time. Those who succeed in using drugs to attempt suicide are successful only 3% of the time. By contrast, more than 90% of all suicide attempts by use of firearms are successful. The bottom line is that anyone using a gun to commit suicide is not likely to have their call for help heard and responded to before its too late." That is all you need to know. There is a chance to receive help if you survive. You dont survive if you use a gun. It is a waste of a potentially salvageable life.
Right. But what you have to handle is the root of the problem, what causes someone to want to kill themselves. Blaming guns will not handle the problem, people will attempt suicide through other means.
You can also lock people up who try to commit suicide or tie them down 24/7 so they can't. Less people will kill themselves but is that really a solution?
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On December 21 2012 02:04 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 02:01 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:45 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:38 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:35 silynxer wrote:On December 21 2012 01:28 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 01:14 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 01:02 Esk23 wrote:On December 21 2012 00:55 mcc wrote:On December 21 2012 00:53 Esk23 wrote:Here you go guys, proof it's the drugs that cause this violence. Here is a list of shootings, all connected to psychiatric drugs: http://www.ssristories.com/index.phpThere's a reason why Switzerland has a gun in every household there yet gun violence is so, so low. The difference is that 1 in 5 Americans are on psychiatric drugs, the US uses %80 of the world's painkillers while being only %4 of the world's population. US has a major drug problem as I stated before, check the link. That is no proof. It is as simplistic explanation as saying that gun prevalence alone is the case. It might be some factor, but limited one. It's clear proof. Sorry that you're disappointed it's not the guns. Some people have the "I have to be right" issue I see. Are you dense ? In the post you respond to I am saying it is also not guns alone. You seem to be the one with kneejerk reactions and ideological attitude. "It is the guns" is as simplistic and stupid explanation as "It is the drugs". God forbid social phenomena are actually complex. So let's see. People who use guns to murder (or any other method) others are crazy yes? %99.99 of gun owners and an even higher pecentage of people in the US DO NOT murder. What do people who do mass shootings or even multiple murders have in common? Drugs. What's the difference between law-abiding citizens who own guns who DON'T use their guns to murder have with criminals who do use them for murder? The difference is the latter is either 1) mentally insane or 2) is on some type of drug, specifically psychiatric drug or 3) both of 1 and 2. What are you even arguing? That taking every single gun out of the US will reduce gun related violence? Probably. Will it stop the crazy people on drugs from continuing to find ways to murder people? No. Will it stop criminals from committing crime? No. Will it make law abiding citizens safer? No. Will it make criminals safer? Yes. Will it be easier for criminals to commit crimes knowing their victims don't have guns? Yes. Again, Switzerland has a gun in almost every single household yet they have a very low crime rate and gun related violence or homicide rate. A clear big difference between the US and Switzerland is that one of them has 1 out of 5 of their citizens on psychiatric drugs and uses %80 of the world's pain killers while being %4 of the world's population. US has a MAJOR drug abuse problem while Switzerland does not. You could go back one page and read what a guy from Switzerland wrote about the gun situation in his country and how it is a bit different from the US. Btw you can use the same argument like above about people who use drugs or are mentally ill, a really high percentage of them does not kill anyone, but those who manage to do so are likely to own guns (I will not make that argument because it's simplistic and stupid and perhaps not even true, I just try to show you that the situation might be somewhat more complex than you are painting here). Or maybe because most of the people on those drugs commit suicide rather than go on shooting sprees. I agree that we need to make sure we have ways to keep guns out of mentally insane or psychiatrically drugged people, BUT this has to be done without infringing upon law-abiding citizens rights to own guns who have done nothing wrong. http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=suicides Suicide is another interesting topic. People who own guns are more likely to die in a suicide (because they are more likely successful), there was a study linked in this thread I think. Whether that's good or bad or not that bad is again a bit difficult to decide. Your links to ssristories do not show anything if you do not have a complete list of all incidents (with and without drug or suicide). People die from suicide 3-4 times more than they do from firearms. If I find a statistic that shows how many people who commit suicide are on drugs or psychiatric drugs I will post it. If someone wants to commit suicide, they will do so with or without a gun. "The Harvard School of Mental Health just published the results of a study that examined the relationship between household firearms ownership and the rate of suicide. According to the study suicide among people 45 years of age and younger suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States. Among the 50 states in the United States, those with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of suicide among children, women and men. It is important to understand, according to the study, that the higher rates of suicide among those who own guns has to do with the fact that guns are much more lethal than other methods of attempting suicide. What is troubling about this is that suicide attempts are viewed as a desperate call for help among those who are depressed or mentally ill with a psychotic illness. The rate of successful suicide completions is far less for people who use other methods than using a gun. For example, 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs. These people are found alive 97% of the time. Those who succeed in using drugs to attempt suicide are successful only 3% of the time. By contrast, more than 90% of all suicide attempts by use of firearms are successful. The bottom line is that anyone using a gun to commit suicide is not likely to have their call for help heard and responded to before its too late." That is all you need to know. There is a chance to receive help if you survive. You don't survive if you use a gun. It is a waste of a potentially salvageable life.
Again, you are wanting to deal with the symptom, not the cause. Taking away guns would decrease the amount of total successful suicides? But what about dealing with why people want to commit suicides? Unless you think there is no issue there -- suicide attempts will happen no matter what you do and there is no value in trying to deal with this issue?
So basically we end up with a lot more of people, who probably happen to have mental issues, but of no way with trying to cope with this? So we just assign someone to watch them 24/7? Or hope that the 3% chance of success decreases or holds up over infinity time?
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Why not treat both, symptoms and causes? Furthermore, guns are causes of successful suicides as seen in the study (while suicides are unrelated to the existence of guns I'd assume).
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EPT
