EPTone can tell
If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
one can tell | ||
|
heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On December 20 2012 14:28 Zaqwert wrote: Yeah seriously I just noticed that, I didn't even know there was a user like that much less posting in the same thread right around the time I did, freaky. You aint foolin us! | ||
|
Zaqwe
591 Posts
But your first post asked "who taught you to think like this?" | ||
|
binkman
Australia40 Posts
On December 20 2012 14:04 Zaqwe wrote: You're ignoring all the data other than the Luxembourg one, and the entire paper. Indeed, you haven't even read it, you just googled and found someone criticize the Luxembourg error and are regurgitating that as your only defense. Grasping at straws, I think is the term for it. There is nothing wrong with quoting a paper that has a single error in it but otherwise is accurate and still has valid conclusions. Nothing is perfect. So I am going to repeat this yet again: You still have to account for countries with high rates of gun ownership that have very low gun-murder rates -- or, conversely, low-income nations like Mexico that have quite stringent gun laws and a comparatively high incidence of gun-related violence. One typo aside, the statistical analyses conducted by Kates-Mauser remain unanswered. Feel free to try and actually address that. Or mention the Luxembourg again, I don't care. You're only embarrassing yourself. You supply an non-peer-reviewed "Harvard Study" which I show has errors in it, and draws conclusions based on that erroneous data, as an example: "For example, Luxembourg, where handguns are totally banned and ownership of any kind of gun is minimal, had a murder rate nine times higher than Germany in 2002." (This is actually false, Luxembourg had a lower homicide rate.) This is used again later as helping to establish that strict gun control actually serves to increase violent gun crime. Not only do they not realize the number is wrong, they use Luxembourg as an example of gun control leading to more crime. (Of course in the surrounding countries where the ownership numbers and homicide rates are both low, this is put down to the political situation.) I didn't need to finish all 46 pages to recognize a useless paper when I saw it. Moreover, why hasn't one of these two professionals felt the need to correct their own mistake, or at least acknowledge that it even exists. Relying on this study to illustrate your point, after admitting it contains bad data, is probably a better definition of grasping at straws. Moreover the Harvard firearm research page I linked to has a number of peer-reviewed papers, some of which actually suggest a positive correlation between gun control and reduction in murder/suicide rates. I did not ignore your point about Mexico's problems, or unnamed other countries (I am assuming Scandanavian countries) with 'high' (not compared to the USA) ownership rates but low gun homicide rates. I know these places exist, I am interested to know why it is that you think Americans feel the need to kill each other (regardless of how) so much more than other countries? There are plenty of places in Europe with socio-economic problems, but the homicide rates remain low in these countries. I think the problem with guns in the USA is a cultural one, unfortunately it will probably take a lot more incidents like those of the past few weeks before people start to see that the solution to gun violence doesn't involve more guns. | ||
|
Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On December 19 2012 22:35 Zaqwe wrote: A school shooting recently happened. 26 victims died because they were denied the ability to defend themselves. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388083 This is what happens when law abiding citizens are disarmed. After seeing how well gun control works in school zones how could anyone want to expand it? That's lunacy bordering on evil. Oh really? I thought that 26 victims died because a heavily armed, deranged lunatic shot them. Don't you read the news? Arguing that teachers and individuals are somehow responsible for their own personal safety in the face of a mass murderer is LESS American and MORE outrageous than people that argue to ban guns outright. It's a stupid and unserious basis for any discussion. If you think gun freedom and arming every person that works in a public solutions is some form of 'solution', than maybe you should consider moving to Somalia or some other third world country, where people have given up all hope of a civil society and where the amount of personal freedom and safety you have is defined by the amount of firepower you carry. Damn. | ||
|
Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
There was not a single adult male on the school premises when the shooting occurred. In this school of 450 students, a sizeable number of whom were undoubtedly 11- and 12-year-old boys (it was a K–6 school), all the personnel — the teachers, the principal, the assistant principal, the school psychologist, the “reading specialist” — were female. There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees. Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers. The principal, Dawn Hochsprung, seemed to have performed bravely. According to reports, she activated the school’s public-address system and also lunged at Lanza, before he shot her to death. Some of the teachers managed to save all or some of their charges by rushing them into closets or bathrooms. But in general, a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm. Male aggression can be a good thing, as in protecting the weak — but it has been forced out of the culture of elementary schools and the education schools that train their personnel. Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football, or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza. http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335996/newtown-answers-nro-symposium# LOL. I know what would have happened. There would have probably been two male teachers and several husky 12 year old boys added to the body count. Are there seriously still Americans out there that think the source of all of society's problems is a general lack of machismo? Shiiiiiiiiieeeeet. | ||
|
Keldrath
United States449 Posts
This is what it gets you. | ||
|
jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On December 20 2012 15:32 Keldrath wrote: I've got something new for you, this is aimed at all the people that have been advocating, more guns = safer. This is what it gets you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EccDw0hvgKs its about being in competent hands. the owner of that gun is obviously incompetent. | ||
|
Focuspants
Canada780 Posts
On December 20 2012 15:54 jinorazi wrote: its about being in competent hands. the owner of that gun is obviously incompetent. Ya, and incompetent people like this owner, are a dime a dozen, and they all have access to firearms. Thats a problem. | ||
|
Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On December 20 2012 16:12 Focuspants wrote: Ya, and incompetent people like this owner, are a dime a dozen, and they all have access to firearms. Thats a problem. If some people weren't dumb guns wouldn't be an issue ... or cars ... or alcohol ... or cigarettes ... or the zillion other things that are regulated to protect public health and safety. | ||
|
iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4338 Posts
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent 7:00AM BST 02 Jul 2009 Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power. The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. | ||
|
HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
| ||
|
HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:47 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: UK has some of the strictest gun laws in the developed world yet has the highest violent crime rate per capita in Europe and also higher than the USA, Canada, Australia and even South Africa.Please stop pushing this hoax that banning guns will create a happy clappy utopia. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent 7:00AM BST 02 Jul 2009 Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power. The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. That's a pretty worthless statistic without a definition of what constitutes "violent crime" and indeed whether they are even using police reports or surveys etc. Last year, by the way, the UK had thirty-nine gun homicides. 39. For comparison, I live next to a Chicago neighborhood that has had at least 17 gun homicides this year, out of a population of just under 100,000. Saying that the UK is more violent than the US is farcical. edit: It is worth pointing out that Chicago has had some of the strictest gun control in the U.S., which obviously does little if anything. But that doesn't mean that gun control doesn't work in other places such as the U.K., because clearly it does. | ||
|
iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4338 Posts
On December 20 2012 21:11 HunterX11 wrote: That's a pretty worthless statistic without a definition of what constitutes "violent crime" and indeed whether they are even using police reports or surveys etc. Last year, by the way, the UK had thirty-nine gun homicides. 39. For comparison, I live next to a Chicago neighborhood that has had at least 17 gun homicides this year, out of a population of just under 100,000. Saying that the UK is more violent than the US is farcical. edit: It is worth pointing out that Chicago has had some of the strictest gun control in the U.S., which obviously does little if anything. But that doesn't mean that gun control doesn't work in other places such as the U.K., because clearly it does. Well it obviously doesn't work as a deterrant for crime since the violent crime stats are so bad in the UK no? Chicago proves my point, gangs and other criminal elements will always get their hands on guns like they get their hands on illegal drugs.Especially in a country that already has 300 million guns, to call for a ban on guns in a country with that many guns is what is farcical. Anyway i have heard they are looking at restricting knife use in the UK more.Taking the lead from China where the odd crazy person sometimes goes on a killing rampage in a school too? An attacker named Wu Huanming (吴环明), 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010 | ||
|
HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On December 20 2012 21:22 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Well it obviously doesn't work as a deterrant for crime since the violent crime stats are so bad in the UK no? Chicago proves my point, gangs and other criminal elements will always get their hands on guns like they get their hands on illegal drugs.Especially in a country that already has 300 million guns, to call for a ban on guns in a country with that many guns is what is farcical. Anyway i have heard they are looking at restricting knife use in the UK more.Taking the lead from China where the odd crazy person sometimes goes on a killing rampage in a school too? I agree that gun control can't do that much in the U.S., but it is hard to argue that it isn't effective in countries like the U.K. with not only lower gun crime rates but lower homicide rates. | ||
|
FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:36 Defacer wrote: If some people weren't dumb guns wouldn't be an issue ... or cars ... or alcohol ... or cigarettes ... or the zillion other things that are regulated to protect public health and safety. But they are, so it is. | ||
|
diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:47 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: UK has some of the strictest gun laws in the developed world yet has the highest violent crime rate per capita in Europe and also higher than the USA, Canada, Australia and even South Africa.Please stop pushing this hoax that banning guns will create a happy clappy utopia. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent 7:00AM BST 02 Jul 2009 Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power. The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. so what, even if this study was 100% credible and not a mere link to a post from the telegraph, if anything it would support gun control. Lets say the article is accurate. Then we have a rate of violent crimes per capita five times higher than in the USA (2000 vs 400). At the same time though, the rate of intentional homicides per capita in the UK is 4 times lower than in the USA (1.2 vs 4.2) (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) Its quite curious to see that a nation with 5 times as many violent crimes than another still has 4 times less murders. Coming to the conclusion that the violent offenders had no easy access to guns in the UK while they had in the USA as the explanation in light of these numbers is obviously the most reasonable one. Every cultural or social argument falls short, because it ignores the fact that the total number of violent crimes in USA is actually five times lower than in the UK. That being said I think riding statistics to decide the matter of gun control is not the way to go. For me, its a simple matter of philosophy. I think strict gun control is needed for a nation to be a civilized nation. In order for a society to work, the people give up their power to the state who has the monopoly on violence. Allowing everyone to carry guns basically undermines the monopoly on violence the state must have. Read "The Leviathan" by Hobbes. Self-Defense is a moot point, because the state is there to carry out justice, killing burglars in your home is self-justice and element of anarchy, not of a civilized state. Of course one can argue that this is a disadvantage of disallowing guns. You have to rely on the state to help you and in some cases, the burglars cant be caught or the rapist rapes your girlfriend or whatever. But this is the price you pay in order to live in a civilized state. The price you pay for allowing people to carry guns is living in a state with anarchical elements where the homicide rate is 4 to 6 times higher than in other first world countries and the likelihood of your child being massacred in the classroom is probably even more than 6 times higher. Nothing is perfect, neither gun control nor allowing guns, but arguing against these severe disadvantages of allowing guns is just foolish. | ||
|
Scareb
Germany173 Posts
People should not feel the need to get a weapon to be safe! Like we do here in Germany or in the Netherlands or Spain or Belgium or GB or or or. I wish them all the luck in the world to achieve it! | ||
|
haffy
United Kingdom430 Posts
| ||
|
3Form
United Kingdom389 Posts
On December 20 2012 20:47 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: UK has some of the strictest gun laws in the developed world yet has the highest violent crime rate per capita in Europe and also higher than the USA, Canada, Australia and even South Africa.Please stop pushing this hoax that banning guns will create a happy clappy utopia. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent 7:00AM BST 02 Jul 2009 Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power. The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. This always gets brought up and time and time again people have to be reminded that the definition of "violent crime" is different in the UK than it is in the US. Isn't it understood that in the UK this includes assault and GBH, whereas in the US it doesnt? I feel perfectly safe in the UK, thank you very much. From the same fecking article, for god's sake read the stuff before you post it: Researchers admit that comparisons of crime data between countries must be viewed with caution because of differing criminal justice systems and how crimes are reported and measured. A Home Office spokesperson said: “These figures are misleading. Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime. “Violent crime in England and Wales has fallen by almost a half since a peak in 1995 but we are not complacent and know there is still work to do. “ | ||
| ||
