there is always risk with everything, going on a car ride is super dangerous and cause a lot of pollution and traffic jam, should we ban cars now and all switch to something else?
Burning wood, dangerous? - Page 9
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ETisME
12486 Posts
there is always risk with everything, going on a car ride is super dangerous and cause a lot of pollution and traffic jam, should we ban cars now and all switch to something else? | ||
RoberP
United Kingdom101 Posts
Here's the conclusion as the paper is rather long + Show Spoiler + Conclusions Recognizing the limitations of current knowledge and need for additional information, we nevertheless offer preliminary answers to the questions raised in the introduction: The hazards of woodsmoke as a mixture. Because woodsmoke is made up of such a large mixture of different chemicals, it is impossible at present to attempt to accurately assess its health impacts by simply summing the potential effects of individual constituents. (Indeed, there are few if any examples in which the effects of mixtures are fully reflected by the summed toxic potentials.) Particularly in high-exposure situations with fresh woodsmoke, as with occupational exposures or vegetation fire episodes, there may be a need to derive indices of exposure that take into account a range of toxic endpoints due to woodsmoke, for example, including acuteacting as well as chronic toxicants, so that appropriate protective actions can be adequately taken. Use of fine particles or any other single metric by itself may not be sufficient in these circumstances. Woodsmoke particles. Nevertheless, at the present time fine particles may represent the best metric to characterize exposures to smoke from residential wood combustion and from wildfire smoke. There is no persuasive evidence that woodsmoke particles are significantly less dangerous for respiratory disease than other major categories of combustion-derived particles in the same size range. There is too little evidence available today, however, to make a judgment about the relative toxicity of woodsmoke particles with respect to cardiovascular or cancer outcomes. Table 6 indicates that millions of people are exposed to smoke from household combustion of wood and other sources of biomass burning. Given the recent upward trend in the costs of oil and natural gas, it is likely that residential biomass combustion will become even more widespread throughout both the developed and developing world. More explicit efforts to reduce emissions from small-scale biomass smoke sources are likely to become even more important in the near future in order to meet air quality goals set to protect health. Finally, returning to the questions posed at the start, we conclude that although there is a large and growing body of evidence linking exposure to wood/biomass smoke itself with both acute and chronic illness, there is insufficient evidence at present to support regulating it separately from its individual components, especially fine particulate matter. In addition, there is insuffi- cient evidence at present to conclude that woodsmoke particles are significantly less or more damaging to health than general ambient fine particles. Nevertheless, given the importance of woodsmoke as a contributor to particle concentrations in many locations, strategies to reduce woodsmoke emissions may be an effective means of lowering particle exposures. In addition, given the weight of toxicologic evidence, additional epidemiologic studies are needed to confirm our conclusions However again it's missing the point. As the previous 6 comments have highlighted, it's the woeful inability of humanity to accept any evidence that disagrees with strongly held beliefs (I like fires, therefore it isn't bad for me?). If you want to comment on woodsmoke, read the paper, reach an informed decision. Any argument starting with the word "belief" is one I auto-ignore. Thank you university education! :D EDIT: Although if your decision is that you acknowledge the risks (and your neighbors are ok with it) and do it anyway, then that's fine. But it needs basing in evidence! For instance I know the risks of cycling to work, drinking, eating meat yada yada yada but I do them anyway. But at least it was an informed decision. | ||
Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
On February 04 2012 00:12 Mazaire wrote: I feel a little bit of nanny state happening here but remember guy here related the whole article back to how fundamentalists perceive people when they are told that their religion is wrong. Its actually a very interesting take on the whole atheism vs religion argument and is rather insightful. All this having been said i am completely indifferent to the wood smoke argument, if its bad for me so be it. EDIT: well i read though the thread for the most part and... just... ergh..... come on guys i though starcraft players were smarter than this! Have to... resist the... temptation...... 222222222222222222222222222222222222222 ^ Innocent pagebreaker here. Honestly the OP did not help the matters by naming the thread this way. People have been primed already to expect certain information so they'll likely glean over other details as extraneous. | ||
liberal
1116 Posts
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
On February 03 2012 20:17 shizna wrote: this is paranoia rubbish. if someone want's to smoke a cigarette, you're being a buffoon if you attempt to stop them - in an attempt to 'break the habit'. they're more than aware of the risks, but they enjoy a smoke and probably aren't worried about living to 78 years old instead of into their 80's. if you're chubby, the smoker has a right to turn around and pinch your hamburger and claim that he's worried for your health. on the subject of wood fires... gas central heating is faaaaaaaaaar moooooooore expensive than burning a coal fire. especially in a property with poor insulation or without double-glazing. my house gets to about 8-10 degrees celcius in winter, which is unbearably cold... the heating would have to be on 24/7 to raise that by a couple of degrees. i have a fireplace in the other room that's currently burning with wood on it... the smoke goes up the chimney and away - i certainly can't smell or see any smoke outside - it seems to go right up into the air. why is there wood on the fire? because last summer we had about 7-8 trees in the garden cut down because they were overgrown and interfering with telephone lines on the street... there is a pile of wood just lying there. The bolded part is a perfect example of the articles intent to show how ignorant people can be when given scientific evidence. Keep in mind, the problem with cigarettes and the parallel drawn between them and fireplaces is not that you have a right to burn fires (you can legally smoke in most countries) it's the fact you don't have the right to subject others unwillingly to second hand smoke. In most of Canada you can't smoke in commercial or public property etc. because you infringe on the rights of those around you, the article suggests that burning fires in your home should have the same restrictions as smoking cigarettes (but since the smoke is far more widespread than smoking, the ban would effect private homes) | ||
liberal
1116 Posts
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote: I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it. People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous. Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead? | ||
DreamChaser
1649 Posts
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
On February 04 2012 02:01 Hesmyrr wrote: Have to... resist the... temptation...... 222222222222222222222222222222222222222 ^ Innocent pagebreaker here. Honestly the OP did not help the matters by naming the thread this way. People have been primed already to expect certain information so they'll likely glean over other details as extraneous. That was partly the point tho =) As I explained in the opening post, my interest was in peoples initial reaction after reading the idea that burning wood might be dangerous. As I could've expected most people apparantly replied to the title alone without reading anything else and went OMG LOL there's more things out there bad for you who cares, but that missed the point by about a mile. | ||
Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
On February 04 2012 02:15 liberal wrote: People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous. Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead? Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said: Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =) A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =) | ||
liberal
1116 Posts
On February 04 2012 02:26 Promises wrote: Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said: A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =) Congrats, you proved that people will respond in certain predictable ways to intentionally provocative statements. What a clever social experiment. -_- The really funny thing to me is that I just said that people are often in denial in the evil 12 year old thread, and I got flamed by like 6 different people. I guess if I stated that I was only calling religious or anti-environmentalist people delusional then I wouldn't have been met with such anger and repeatedly called a delusional moron. | ||
Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
The article was meant to inspire in you the feelings that religious people feel when their beliefs are challenged or shown to be wrong in any way, and how they resist those ideas. If you accepted what Sam Harris said here, instead of denying it like most people would do, then the article wouldn't really help you in that regard.. | ||
bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
On February 04 2012 02:26 Promises wrote: Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said: A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =) It wasn't skipped over. You're simply projecting the effect this blog post had on you (you resisted the facts) on us (who took a look at the facts, assessed them, and found them unremarkable). I understand that the author of the blog post was trying to make a point about how people react when their irrational beliefs are questioned, but using the fact that fireplaces are dangerous (something society already takes seriously, as demonstrated by the regulations around them) is not the best way of making it. | ||
GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
Anyways, about the actual scientific content of the article.. there's nothing really surprising in it other than the degree to which burning wood is bad (always thought it would be bad for you, inhaling smoke being a good thing is very unlikely, just wasn't aware it was worse than cigarettes). I don't really think anyone competent would try to reject this with counterarguments he supposes, so he just wastes more time with unscientific fluff attacking bad religious arguments at the end. This article isn't even primarily about burning wood or science, it's mostly about militant atheism. Did you copy+paste this from r/atheism or something? The article is so full of shit presupposing that anyone who disagrees with him is incompetent and irrational, I almost puked, especially when he goes about to attack the weakest and dumbest counter-arguments you could imagine in an attempt to confirm his point (another thing that is completely unscientific). tl;dr: Thread title is misleading. | ||
Starparty
Sweden1963 Posts
On February 04 2012 02:26 Promises wrote: Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said: A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =) Why? They wrote exactly what their first reaction was... Your current argument is not even about writing reactions about the contents of the topic, but more some kind of unnecessary social experiment to see how many people bother to read a wall of text before posting a reply and then fire up a debate over ... something ... noone really has a clue about. I dont get the point of the debates in some of these threads on TL. Its like people doesnt have any real person problems so you need to make some up online and yap yap about it in forums. Its not even about trying to prove points, its just about trying to be right about 'something' whatever it is. | ||
wunsun
Canada622 Posts
I think this information is basically similar to everything else with life, a little of something isn't bad, maybe even good. But a lot of something is where you run into problems. | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
This burning of wood is an analogy to confronting religious persons about their beliefs. The comparison between the two is made by people not wanting to give up burning wood recreationally [chimney, stove, campire etc) even when it has been proven scientifically and rationally that such behaviour is both detrimental to your health and those around you. Sam Harris' article is trying to give an analogy of what it is like as a person whose basis of thought it rationality to talk, convince or confront the stubbornness of religion. Everyone else talking about the burning of wood and its harmful effects is breaking some TL rules. So many replies to the title of the OP it is fucking sad. TLDR Sam Harris wrote an excellent piece of the frustrations of the non-religious when attempting to confront the religious about the scientific and rational dichotomy of their beliefs. He used the analogy of burning wood to show how people cling to what behaviours that comforts them (ie sight of a fire, religion) even when they know these behaviours to be harmful as opposed to be rational behaviours (burning gas instead of wood, confronting your own reservations about religion). FFS TL step your game up and read before you write so you don't look retarded like page 1 of this thread. | ||
Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
Man if only we knew it earlier ! So many peoples would have been saved ! I'm obviously kidding ![]() Yeah inhalating smokes is bad and doing recreational fire is waste and stupid, but otherwise, wood is the easiest way to get a fire, and history told me that fire can be veeeeerrry usefull. getting warm and cook your meat in many conditions. Don't misunderstand me, this study is very relevant but that doesn't mean burning wood should be illegal. Who seriously thought that inhalating smoke from wood would be good for health ? It is like a common knowledge since ever. When there is massive fire in forest, this can become a pollution concern, but someone alimenting his chemney won't cause any arm in my opinion... I just hope nobody will force stupid laws against burning some woods, because this is the heat for the poor, and what pollute more ? your radiator wich consume gas, mazhout or electricity or a regula chimney ? All of this will cause ecological damages but I don't know wich one is worse, I always thought woods wouldn't be.... EDIT : To the post above : Thank god TLers didn't read the full article, this thread would go into religious discussion in no time :p | ||
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