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Burning wood, dangerous? - Page 9

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ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12486 Posts
February 03 2012 16:46 GMT
#161
fireplace has been a strong part of culture and I mean come on, there are tonnes of things that everyone do commonly are more dangerous than "breathing wood smoke".
there is always risk with everything, going on a car ride is super dangerous and cause a lot of pollution and traffic jam, should we ban cars now and all switch to something else?
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
RoberP
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom101 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-03 17:00:27
February 03 2012 16:55 GMT
#162
Full .pdf of the paper referred to in his article - http://www.vtwoodsmoke.org/pdf/Woodsmoke-health.pdf It took me under 15 seconds to find this on google, and it's available to the public - so no excuses for not finding it!

Here's the conclusion as the paper is rather long
+ Show Spoiler +

Conclusions
Recognizing the limitations of current knowledge and need
for additional information, we nevertheless offer preliminary
answers to the questions raised in the introduction:
The hazards of woodsmoke as a mixture. Because
woodsmoke is made up of such a large mixture of different
chemicals, it is impossible at present to attempt to accurately
assess its health impacts by simply summing the potential effects of individual constituents. (Indeed, there are few if any
examples in which the effects of mixtures are fully reflected
by the summed toxic potentials.) Particularly in high-exposure
situations with fresh woodsmoke, as with occupational exposures or vegetation fire episodes, there may be a need to derive indices of exposure that take into account a range of toxic
endpoints due to woodsmoke, for example, including acuteacting as well as chronic toxicants, so that appropriate protective actions can be adequately taken. Use of fine particles or
any other single metric by itself may not be sufficient in these
circumstances.
Woodsmoke particles. Nevertheless, at the present time fine
particles may represent the best metric to characterize exposures
to smoke from residential wood combustion and from wildfire
smoke. There is no persuasive evidence that woodsmoke particles are significantly less dangerous for respiratory disease
than other major categories of combustion-derived particles in
the same size range. There is too little evidence available today, however, to make a judgment about the relative toxicity of
woodsmoke particles with respect to cardiovascular or cancer
outcomes.
Table 6 indicates that millions of people are exposed to
smoke from household combustion of wood and other sources
of biomass burning. Given the recent upward trend in the costs
of oil and natural gas, it is likely that residential biomass combustion will become even more widespread throughout both the
developed and developing world. More explicit efforts to reduce
emissions from small-scale biomass smoke sources are likely to
become even more important in the near future in order to meet
air quality goals set to protect health.
Finally, returning to the questions posed at the start, we conclude that although there is a large and growing body of evidence
linking exposure to wood/biomass smoke itself with both acute
and chronic illness, there is insufficient evidence at present to
support regulating it separately from its individual components,
especially fine particulate matter. In addition, there is insuffi-
cient evidence at present to conclude that woodsmoke particles
are significantly less or more damaging to health than general
ambient fine particles.
Nevertheless, given the importance of woodsmoke as a contributor to particle concentrations in many locations, strategies
to reduce woodsmoke emissions may be an effective means of
lowering particle exposures. In addition, given the weight of toxicologic evidence, additional epidemiologic studies are needed
to confirm our conclusions


However again it's missing the point. As the previous 6 comments have highlighted, it's the woeful inability of humanity to accept any evidence that disagrees with strongly held beliefs (I like fires, therefore it isn't bad for me?). If you want to comment on woodsmoke, read the paper, reach an informed decision. Any argument starting with the word "belief" is one I auto-ignore. Thank you university education! :D

EDIT: Although if your decision is that you acknowledge the risks (and your neighbors are ok with it) and do it anyway, then that's fine. But it needs basing in evidence! For instance I know the risks of cycling to work, drinking, eating meat yada yada yada but I do them anyway. But at least it was an informed decision.
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
February 03 2012 17:01 GMT
#163
On February 04 2012 00:12 Mazaire wrote:
I feel a little bit of nanny state happening here but remember guy here related the whole article back to how fundamentalists perceive people when they are told that their religion is wrong. Its actually a very interesting take on the whole atheism vs religion argument and is rather insightful.

All this having been said i am completely indifferent to the wood smoke argument, if its bad for me so be it.


EDIT:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2012 00:07 vGl-CoW wrote:
On February 03 2012 23:56 vasculaR wrote:
i think a few people missed the point...
lol


yeah, about ninety percent of them.. this thread is so depressing



well i read though the thread for the most part and... just... ergh..... come on guys i though starcraft players were smarter than this!

Have to... resist the... temptation......

222222222222222222222222222222222222222
^ Innocent pagebreaker here.

Honestly the OP did not help the matters by naming the thread this way. People have been primed already to expect certain information so they'll likely glean over other details as extraneous.


"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-03 17:15:48
February 03 2012 17:03 GMT
#164
SirKibbleX
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States479 Posts
February 03 2012 17:04 GMT
#165
I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.
Praemonitus, Praemunitus.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
February 03 2012 17:07 GMT
#166
environmental science has usually been ignored and even attacked by people who are lazy, incompetent, and willingly ignorant in the name of "freedom".
Tor
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada231 Posts
February 03 2012 17:08 GMT
#167
On February 03 2012 20:17 shizna wrote:
this is paranoia rubbish.

if someone want's to smoke a cigarette, you're being a buffoon if you attempt to stop them - in an attempt to 'break the habit'. they're more than aware of the risks, but they enjoy a smoke and probably aren't worried about living to 78 years old instead of into their 80's. if you're chubby, the smoker has a right to turn around and pinch your hamburger and claim that he's worried for your health.

on the subject of wood fires... gas central heating is faaaaaaaaaar moooooooore expensive than burning a coal fire. especially in a property with poor insulation or without double-glazing. my house gets to about 8-10 degrees celcius in winter, which is unbearably cold... the heating would have to be on 24/7 to raise that by a couple of degrees.

i have a fireplace in the other room that's currently burning with wood on it... the smoke goes up the chimney and away - i certainly can't smell or see any smoke outside - it seems to go right up into the air.

why is there wood on the fire? because last summer we had about 7-8 trees in the garden cut down because they were overgrown and interfering with telephone lines on the street... there is a pile of wood just lying there.


The bolded part is a perfect example of the articles intent to show how ignorant people can be when given scientific evidence. Keep in mind, the problem with cigarettes and the parallel drawn between them and fireplaces is not that you have a right to burn fires (you can legally smoke in most countries) it's the fact you don't have the right to subject others unwillingly to second hand smoke. In most of Canada you can't smoke in commercial or public property etc. because you infringe on the rights of those around you, the article suggests that burning fires in your home should have the same restrictions as smoking cigarettes (but since the smoke is far more widespread than smoking, the ban would effect private homes)
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
February 03 2012 17:15 GMT
#168
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote:
I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.

People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous.

Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead?
DreamChaser
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
1649 Posts
February 03 2012 17:19 GMT
#169
I don't breathe in firewood smoke or at least i try not to and besides i don't make a fire everyday so whatever.
Plays against every MU with nexus first.
Promises
Profile Joined February 2004
Netherlands1821 Posts
February 03 2012 17:24 GMT
#170
On February 04 2012 02:01 Hesmyrr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2012 00:12 Mazaire wrote:
I feel a little bit of nanny state happening here but remember guy here related the whole article back to how fundamentalists perceive people when they are told that their religion is wrong. Its actually a very interesting take on the whole atheism vs religion argument and is rather insightful.

All this having been said i am completely indifferent to the wood smoke argument, if its bad for me so be it.


EDIT:
On February 04 2012 00:07 vGl-CoW wrote:
On February 03 2012 23:56 vasculaR wrote:
i think a few people missed the point...
lol


yeah, about ninety percent of them.. this thread is so depressing



well i read though the thread for the most part and... just... ergh..... come on guys i though starcraft players were smarter than this!

Have to... resist the... temptation......

222222222222222222222222222222222222222
^ Innocent pagebreaker here.

Honestly the OP did not help the matters by naming the thread this way. People have been primed already to expect certain information so they'll likely glean over other details as extraneous.




That was partly the point tho =) As I explained in the opening post, my interest was in peoples initial reaction after reading the idea that burning wood might be dangerous. As I could've expected most people apparantly replied to the title alone without reading anything else and went OMG LOL there's more things out there bad for you who cares, but that missed the point by about a mile.
I'm a man of my word, and that word is "unreliable".
Promises
Profile Joined February 2004
Netherlands1821 Posts
February 03 2012 17:26 GMT
#171
On February 04 2012 02:15 liberal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote:
I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.

People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous.

Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead?


Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:


Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)


A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)
I'm a man of my word, and that word is "unreliable".
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-03 17:36:37
February 03 2012 17:32 GMT
#172
On February 04 2012 02:26 Promises wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2012 02:15 liberal wrote:
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote:
I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.

People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous.

Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead?


Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:

Show nested quote +

Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)


A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)

Congrats, you proved that people will respond in certain predictable ways to intentionally provocative statements. What a clever social experiment. -_-

The really funny thing to me is that I just said that people are often in denial in the evil 12 year old thread, and I got flamed by like 6 different people. I guess if I stated that I was only calling religious or anti-environmentalist people delusional then I wouldn't have been met with such anger and repeatedly called a delusional moron.
Demonhunter04
Profile Joined July 2011
1530 Posts
February 03 2012 17:32 GMT
#173
On February 03 2012 19:44 Agathon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2012 19:40 oGoZenob wrote:
How the hell did his atheism has anything to do with this ?


Yeah i don't get it either.


The article was meant to inspire in you the feelings that religious people feel when their beliefs are challenged or shown to be wrong in any way, and how they resist those ideas. If you accepted what Sam Harris said here, instead of denying it like most people would do, then the article wouldn't really help you in that regard..
"If you don't drop sweat today, you will drop tears tomorrow" - SlayerSMMA
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
February 03 2012 17:36 GMT
#174
On February 04 2012 02:26 Promises wrote:
Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:
Show nested quote +

Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)

A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)

It wasn't skipped over.

You're simply projecting the effect this blog post had on you (you resisted the facts) on us (who took a look at the facts, assessed them, and found them unremarkable).

I understand that the author of the blog post was trying to make a point about how people react when their irrational beliefs are questioned, but using the fact that fireplaces are dangerous (something society already takes seriously, as demonstrated by the regulations around them) is not the best way of making it.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-03 18:08:00
February 03 2012 17:37 GMT
#175
Why is atheism even mentioned in this article other than to butter up and pander to a specific audience with non-scientific fluff?

Anyways, about the actual scientific content of the article.. there's nothing really surprising in it other than the degree to which burning wood is bad (always thought it would be bad for you, inhaling smoke being a good thing is very unlikely, just wasn't aware it was worse than cigarettes).

I don't really think anyone competent would try to reject this with counterarguments he supposes, so he just wastes more time with unscientific fluff attacking bad religious arguments at the end.

This article isn't even primarily about burning wood or science, it's mostly about militant atheism. Did you copy+paste this from r/atheism or something? The article is so full of shit presupposing that anyone who disagrees with him is incompetent and irrational, I almost puked, especially when he goes about to attack the weakest and dumbest counter-arguments you could imagine in an attempt to confirm his point (another thing that is completely unscientific).

tl;dr: Thread title is misleading.
Starparty
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Sweden1963 Posts
February 03 2012 17:40 GMT
#176
On February 04 2012 02:26 Promises wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2012 02:15 liberal wrote:
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote:
I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.

People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous.

Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead?


Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:

Show nested quote +

Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)


A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)


Why? They wrote exactly what their first reaction was... Your current argument is not even about writing reactions about the contents of the topic, but more some kind of unnecessary social experiment to see how many people bother to read a wall of text before posting a reply and then fire up a debate over ... something ... noone really has a clue about. I dont get the point of the debates in some of these threads on TL. Its like people doesnt have any real person problems so you need to make some up online and yap yap about it in forums. Its not even about trying to prove points, its just about trying to be right about 'something' whatever it is.
The artist formerly known as Starparty
wunsun
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada622 Posts
February 03 2012 17:41 GMT
#177
How comfortable when the wind blows the smoke from the fire toward you. I don't mean a bit of the smoke, but when essentially, the entire smoke that is produced is blowing in your direction in a horizontal fashion. I don't find it comfortable, and I don't any of my friends find it comfortable either, as we move around the fire.

I think this information is basically similar to everything else with life, a little of something isn't bad, maybe even good. But a lot of something is where you run into problems.
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
February 03 2012 17:43 GMT
#178
I would not be surprised. The smoke from wood fires is some nasty stuff, and it smells and seems much more unrefined than tabacco smoke. It really seems like the smoke from a blunt. Now when you smoke, you burn small quantities, but with fireplaces the quantity is much higher, so while 1st hand smoke might be less, 2nd hand smoke is much higher. At least that's what I can logically reason from it, as I am no expert
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
GhoSt[shield]
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2131 Posts
February 03 2012 17:58 GMT
#179
Wow. Gone through the first page and it is damn clear no one has bothered to read the actual article.
This burning of wood is an analogy to confronting religious persons about their beliefs. The comparison between the two is made by people not wanting to give up burning wood recreationally [chimney, stove, campire etc) even when it has been proven scientifically and rationally that such behaviour is both detrimental to your health and those around you. Sam Harris' article is trying to give an analogy of what it is like as a person whose basis of thought it rationality to talk, convince or confront the stubbornness of religion.
Everyone else talking about the burning of wood and its harmful effects is breaking some TL rules. So many replies to the title of the OP it is fucking sad.

TLDR Sam Harris wrote an excellent piece of the frustrations of the non-religious when attempting to confront the religious about the scientific and rational dichotomy of their beliefs. He used the analogy of burning wood to show how people cling to what behaviours that comforts them (ie sight of a fire, religion) even when they know these behaviours to be harmful as opposed to be rational behaviours (burning gas instead of wood, confronting your own reservations about religion).

FFS TL step your game up and read before you write so you don't look retarded like page 1 of this thread.
Diks
Profile Joined January 2010
Belgium1880 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-03 18:07:46
February 03 2012 17:59 GMT
#180
OMG, we burned woods for thousands of years, but thanks now we know it's very dangerous to do so.
Man if only we knew it earlier ! So many peoples would have been saved !

I'm obviously kidding

Yeah inhalating smokes is bad and doing recreational fire is waste and stupid, but otherwise, wood is the easiest way to get a fire, and history told me that fire can be veeeeerrry usefull. getting warm and cook your meat in many conditions.

Don't misunderstand me, this study is very relevant but that doesn't mean burning wood should be illegal.
Who seriously thought that inhalating smoke from wood would be good for health ? It is like a common knowledge since ever. When there is massive fire in forest, this can become a pollution concern, but someone alimenting his chemney won't cause any arm in my opinion...

I just hope nobody will force stupid laws against burning some woods, because this is the heat for the poor, and what pollute more ? your radiator wich consume gas, mazhout or electricity or a regula chimney ? All of this will cause ecological damages but I don't know wich one is worse, I always thought woods wouldn't be....

EDIT : To the post above : Thank god TLers didn't read the full article, this thread would go into religious discussion in no time :p
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