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United States22883 Posts
On January 13 2014 03:34 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 22:42 yamato77 wrote:
If you believe that men and women should be treated equally, you're a feminist, it's as simple as that. How you want to go about making them equal, well, that's where the problems occur.
I'm glad to see most people can understand this concept. Why should believing in equality between the sexes be labeled "feminist" instead of something like "gender equality"?
Because of the history behind the movement and field and difficulty in changing a huge portion of philosophy and academia. Gender theory didn't exist before it. It's a misnomer but there's misnomers all over the place in academic fields.
There's tons of contemporary issues feminism has and y'all aren't hitting on any of them. It's just the same old mra neckbeard bullshit that's been spewed for 40 years.
You know who has the biggest qualms with modern mainstream feminism? Women of color. Not Anglo Saxon men.
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United States42531 Posts
On January 13 2014 05:05 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 03:34 Fencar wrote:On November 18 2013 22:42 yamato77 wrote:
If you believe that men and women should be treated equally, you're a feminist, it's as simple as that. How you want to go about making them equal, well, that's where the problems occur.
I'm glad to see most people can understand this concept. Why should believing in equality between the sexes be labeled "feminist" instead of something like "gender equality"? Because of the history behind the movement and field and difficulty in changing a huge portion of philosophy and academia. Gender theory didn't exist before it. It's a misnomer but there's misnomers all over the place in academic fields. There's tons of contemporary issues feminism has and y'all aren't hitting on any of them. It's just the same old mra neckbeard bullshit that's been spewed for 40 years. You know who has the biggest qualms with modern mainstream feminism? Women of color. Not Anglo Saxon men.
As exemplified by the Moran "I couldn't give a shit about representation of women of colour" fiasco.
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"Feminism" only works in developed countries as the stabilities of the infrastructure are almost all constructed by men. And by feminism I don't mean the "gender equality" party line stated by the organization by the media, I mean the unfair treatment of the organization's outsiders in a sense that the feminist would attempt to abuse their powers under the legislation. So only until you obtain a "safe" environment that the modern feminist can begin acting out of line. It is a privilege, not a right.
Sooner or later as the western infrastructure collapses in terms of economy, it will be men on the frontline repairing the problem, not women. Essentially, men can get the momentum swung the other way to their favor and women will revert back to how it was in the 60's.
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On January 13 2014 04:57 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 12:16 Sokrates wrote:
Feminism is a toxic ideology these days, they rotate around in unfalisfiable claims to justify their agenda.
Feminism these days is not about equal rights, they already got thIt is about demonizing men and taking advantage of todays progressive society.
The problem feminism has is that they are rotating in their ideology and the gradually accept the most extreme point of view within their group. This happened many time, alway the most extreme point of view will be accepted by the majoritiy of feminists. They also stick to people like adria richards that failed on so many levels, a healthy community would not do this. They would get rid of such persons and wouldnt stick up for them.
But i think people will realize this more and more. Right now there is a trend were people that once identified with this movement will abandon it since they realized there is nothing good left in it.
Everyone has to think critical about feminism and everyone has to do ones part to bring it down or bring it back to sanity. This is akin to saying Destiny represents most gamers. I don't think you've done much critical thinking of your own. Fuck, if everyone just read some basic mother fucking Foucault half the stupid arguments in this thread wouldn't exist. The way that society and culture are built is usually non overt and unintentional, but that doesn't make it harmless. That's what Sarkeesian has stressed in all her videos. Portraying only passive or expendable female characters is probably not malicious or intentionally sexist - rather it's a product of the designer's own influences and the work will go on to subtly influence future culture. It's the same shit that crafts ideas on "how to be a man" which are also damaging and hurtful.
1.Sarkeesian arguments are totally debunked, there are a million videos out there that prove her wrong.
2.Sarkeesian took 100k $ made a bunch of shitty videos that were mostly done by her boyfriend (for free) and she didnt even play the games.
3.Just because as time moves on people get more "progressive" doesnt mean you can apply your standards from today to the past. There is a quote of thomas sowell saying: "60years ago people would have called your a radical, 30years ago they would have called you a liberal and today they call you a racist."
4.If women do want to change something they should make their own games towards their own peer group. Nobody is hindering them. Sounds a bit dull? Yeah in a way it is but then again just whining about shit doesnt get shit changed. People do not make video games to make less profit, they make video games taylored to a group of people that will buy those games. Society doesnt change over night, so it is pretty ironic that these people want to apply their extreme point of view to all other regular people in a blink of an eye.
5.I m not saying all feminists are bad but from what i m seeing is that most feminists are not benevolent. They are mostly malicious and hatefull people. All they do is bitch about "white males" that are "evil" and "bad". So they are doing nothing else then shit on their very own beliefs, if they ever had such.
6.Where was the outcry of popular feminists or feminists about the adria richards thing? Not a single critical word was said. Do you know why? Because they all agree or at least tolerate this. Why didnt some popular feminists that have a lot of followers on their blogs or twitter say that adria richards is a malicious person and this stuff shouldnt be done by an upstanding feminist that whats society change to the better? Instead of telling her to go to hell, they rather stick up for her no matter how indefensible her position was.
So now you tell me WHY i should support this kind of movement that accepts the biggest bullshit just because someone calls him/herself a feminist. I also dont see any "modern" popular feminists that debunk the gender is soley a social construct fart. Nobody is speaking up against this. How come?
Actions do show intentions. Just because you write nice things on your flag doesnt mean you stand for them.
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On January 13 2014 03:34 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 22:42 yamato77 wrote:
If you believe that men and women should be treated equally, you're a feminist, it's as simple as that. How you want to go about making them equal, well, that's where the problems occur.
I'm glad to see most people can understand this concept. Why should believing in equality between the sexes be labeled "feminist" instead of something like "gender equality"?
Feminist would be a rather poor word for that, yes, and "believing in equality between the sexists" is a rather poor characterization of feminism. Feminism is activism for the expansion of female rights.
Frequently this does serve the cause of gender equality. Sometimes it doesn't. (It should be born in mind that 'gender equality' is not the be-all end-all. Improving conditions for Group A is always a good thing if it brings no harm to people who are not of Group A.)
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United States42531 Posts
On January 13 2014 06:17 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 03:34 Fencar wrote:On November 18 2013 22:42 yamato77 wrote:
If you believe that men and women should be treated equally, you're a feminist, it's as simple as that. How you want to go about making them equal, well, that's where the problems occur.
I'm glad to see most people can understand this concept. Why should believing in equality between the sexes be labeled "feminist" instead of something like "gender equality"? Feminist would be a rather poor word for that, yes, and "believing in equality between the sexists" is a rather poor characterization of feminism. Feminism is activism for the expansion of female rights. Frequently this does serve the cause of gender equality. Sometimes it doesn't. (It should be born in mind that 'gender equality' is not the be-all end-all. Improving conditions for Group A is always a good thing if it brings no harm to people who are not of Group A.)
Feminism has become much more intersectional than your characterisation of it.
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Gender equality is way different than thinking genders are the same. I'm with the first, feminist are in the second group.
Caring wether boys and girls play videogames, like barbies, dancing or lifting weights seems completely pointless to me.
What is important is that people in general are held to the same standards and equally against the law. Positive discrimination laws for woman (what feminist do) or in favor of any other group (blacks, white, latinos, etc) are detrimental for society and just another form of collectivism an unfairness towards the individual.
The same way current germans are not held accountable for Nazi war crimes, it is completely ridiculous to hold current white males responsible for the living condition of woman or blacks or wathever 100-500 years ago.
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On January 09 2014 18:22 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 09:16 almart wrote:On January 09 2014 05:30 Crushinator wrote:
I don't understand, aren't there a ton of strong female characters in video games? (including a whole bunch of lead characters) I would think the proportion is greater in video games than in other story driven media, which is quite impressive for an industry that has a very male consumer base. The female characters in video games are almost always there for a reason of their own, rather than in movies and books where the female characters much more often are just there to develop the male lead's character. What exactly makes you think that? Female characters for the most part in video games are actually always there just to drive the story ahead just like in movies/books. Of course there female leads in some games, but they seem to be an extreme minority. The whole criticism over video games seems to be over the fact that like you have stated it's male dominated, and why do you think that is exactly? It's not like males are just born to love video games over females there is clearly something more to it. I don't agree that there is a lack of strong female characters in videogames, the blizzard and mass effect universes have plenty for example, as does almost every other RPG universe, and they also almost always allow you to pick gender. And I do think the disparity in numbers between male and female gamers in video games can largely be explained by inherent differences in average preferences, and I certainly don't think a lack of female characters has anything to do with the difference.
How do you not agree that there is a lack of female characters? It's just a basic fact must be considered. I have already stated that there are examples of female characters in video games, but it is still highly male dominated.
"According to data gathered by Electronic Entertainment Design and Research (EEDAR), few video games have exclusively female heroes. This is in part because, according to EEDAR, "there's a sense in the industry that games with female heroes won’t sell", which Penny Arcade attributed in part to these games receiving much less marketing budget as games with male heroes"
Also, you say that the disparity between female and male gamers can just be attributed to the differences in average preferences, but how do you exactly think these preferences are created? Our society pushes these preferences at a young age through the form of media and traditional culture. We teach boys and girls how they should act in society and define what is masculine and feminine for them. Going against the standards made by our society usually lands people as a social outcast. Whether you like it or not video games in our society are attributed as a masculine activity which is why it is so male dominated. It's certainly a hard truth to swallow, but it is just ignorant to think that we live in a perfect society and video games or any form of entertainment aren't biased.
"Women continuously exposed to extreme versions of the modern "ideal woman” (large breasted and slender, with longer-than-normal legs and breasts that defy gravity) are reported to have increased levels of body dissatisfaction, negative moods and depression, and lower levels of self-esteem and self-worth"
"Males are affected by media images as well. Men who view images of “the ideal male” (muscular with very little body fat) have been reported to have more negative body images and are more likely to try to gain weight/muscle mass or use steroids, as well as, more recently, increased risk of suffering from eating disorders"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games
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On January 13 2014 09:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
Gender equality is way different than thinking genders are the same. I'm with the first, feminist are in the second group.
Caring wether boys and girls play videogames, like barbies, dancing or lifting weights seems completely pointless to me.
What is important is that people in general are held to the same standards and equally against the law. Positive discrimination laws for woman (what feminist do) or in favor of any other group (blacks, white, latinos, etc) are detrimental for society and just another form of collectivism an unfairness towards the individual.
The same way current germans are not held accountable for Nazi war crimes, it is completely ridiculous to hold current white males responsible for the living condition of woman or blacks or wathever 100-500 years ago.
What on earth is a positive discrimination law? Nobody is holding anyone responsible, people are just simply taking note on how in our society some groups have an advantage compared to others. You act as if all racism and sexism has simply ended and there is nothing to worry about anymore. There is countless evidence of modern discrimination (for women and minorities) in the workforce and in daily life. Also, just because you don't care about gender roles and how our society pushes it on everyone doesn't mean that it isn't a problem that needs to be solved.
Edit: Positive discrimination is called affirmative action in US
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On January 13 2014 09:51 almart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 18:22 Crushinator wrote:On January 09 2014 09:16 almart wrote:On January 09 2014 05:30 Crushinator wrote:
I don't understand, aren't there a ton of strong female characters in video games? (including a whole bunch of lead characters) I would think the proportion is greater in video games than in other story driven media, which is quite impressive for an industry that has a very male consumer base. The female characters in video games are almost always there for a reason of their own, rather than in movies and books where the female characters much more often are just there to develop the male lead's character. What exactly makes you think that? Female characters for the most part in video games are actually always there just to drive the story ahead just like in movies/books. Of course there female leads in some games, but they seem to be an extreme minority. The whole criticism over video games seems to be over the fact that like you have stated it's male dominated, and why do you think that is exactly? It's not like males are just born to love video games over females there is clearly something more to it. I don't agree that there is a lack of strong female characters in videogames, the blizzard and mass effect universes have plenty for example, as does almost every other RPG universe, and they also almost always allow you to pick gender. And I do think the disparity in numbers between male and female gamers in video games can largely be explained by inherent differences in average preferences, and I certainly don't think a lack of female characters has anything to do with the difference. How do you not agree that there is a lack of female characters? It's just a basic fact must be considered. I have already stated that there are examples of female characters in video games, but it is still highly male dominated. "According to data gathered by Electronic Entertainment Design and Research (EEDAR), few video games have exclusively female heroes. This is in part because, according to EEDAR, "there's a sense in the industry that games with female heroes won’t sell", which Penny Arcade attributed in part to these games receiving much less marketing budget as games with male heroes" Also, you say that the disparity between female and male gamers can just be attributed to the differences in average preferences, but how do you exactly think these preferences are created? Our society pushes these preferences at a young age through the form of media and traditional culture. We teach boys and girls how they should act in society and define what is masculine and feminine for them. Going against the standards made by our society usually lands people as a social outcast. Whether you like it or not video games in our society are attributed as a masculine activity which is why it is so male dominated. It's certainly a hard truth to swallow, but it is just ignorant to think that we live in a perfect society and video games or any form of entertainment aren't biased. "Women continuously exposed to extreme versions of the modern "ideal woman” (large breasted and slender, with longer-than-normal legs and breasts that defy gravity) are reported to have increased levels of body dissatisfaction, negative moods and depression, and lower levels of self-esteem and self-worth" "Males are affected by media images as well. Men who view images of “the ideal male” (muscular with very little body fat) have been reported to have more negative body images and are more likely to try to gain weight/muscle mass or use steroids, as well as, more recently, increased risk of suffering from eating disorders" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games
Oh no superheros that do things no living human being is able to do and they look unnatural. What a critical statement. We better stop making superhero movies and games because people will have less selfconfidence.
Human nature will never be fair, there will always be people that look better, are taller and more intelligent than others. Just deal with it. The next thing is that movies use beautiful people as actors, we better get ugly actors so nonone feels bad about themselves.
Life is not fair and you do not make it better when everything people create or do is being viewed as wrong just because you said so.
People see discrimination, racism and sexism in the most petty shit, it never stops. Do you think it is more healthy when everybody puts every word on a scale and judge if this was "racist" or "sexist". Do you really think that makes a better society when everybody has to watch out what one says or does because other people might get "offended". God i really hate that shit when somebody comes up with "i m offended", i always precieve them as immature childs. And i m not talking about extreme words here.
And also: No men and women are not the same, they will never be the same no matter how much you try to bend society in your ideal world patterns. That will never happen and it only creates stress on men and women alike. More than those video game characters.
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On January 13 2014 09:59 almart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 09:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
Gender equality is way different than thinking genders are the same. I'm with the first, feminist are in the second group.
Caring wether boys and girls play videogames, like barbies, dancing or lifting weights seems completely pointless to me.
What is important is that people in general are held to the same standards and equally against the law. Positive discrimination laws for woman (what feminist do) or in favor of any other group (blacks, white, latinos, etc) are detrimental for society and just another form of collectivism an unfairness towards the individual.
The same way current germans are not held accountable for Nazi war crimes, it is completely ridiculous to hold current white males responsible for the living condition of woman or blacks or wathever 100-500 years ago. What on earth is a positive discrimination law? Nobody is holding anyone responsible, people are just simply taking note on how in our society some groups have an advantage compared to others. You act as if all racism and sexism has simply ended and there is nothing to worry about anymore. There is countless evidence of modern discrimination (for women and minorities) in the workforce and in daily life. Also, just because you don't care about gender roles and how our society pushes it on everyone doesn't mean that it isn't a problem that needs to be solved. Edit: Positive discrimination is called affirmative action in US
Did not know, I'm against positive discrimination. I don't think it is fair that X% of managers/employees/etc have to be woman/black etc.
First, it is unfair for the individual that does not gets hired because of some arbitrary law someone else less qualified got the job.
Second, it is impossible to construct fair laws because of the million hidden correlations. Say, X% of managers have to be woman. How do we determine X? how does X vary per industry? How do we adjust for time in the workforce? Population in the country, state or area?
My problem with gender role thing is that it is almost impossible to tell with any degree of certainty wether gender roles on any activity is dictated by biology or because of society standards.
Men prefer weight lifting because they have higher testosterone levels or because society push them to it?
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On January 12 2014 13:14 Djzapz wrote:
Women don't have equal rights in practice. You're right in that part of the feminist movement is garbage but there are still issues.
Can you name me an example in a western country where women have less rights than men? I can't. However, I could name a few examples where the opposite is true. This is hardly any news though. White males are discriminated against in most western government. The reason we accept it is because we have bought into the feminist idea of white male privilege. I used to buy into some of that stuff too, but then I educated myself.
Anyway, I was watching TV yesterday, and on one of the channels, the Swedish Left Party (4th largest party, at ca 10%) had a live congress meeting where the elected members of the party all across the country were present. And anyone who had anything to say about any political matter would take the stand and speak their mind. I'm interested in politics, so I was curious and decided to listen to them for a while. After only a few minutes, a guy went up to speak, and guess what he said?
He started out by complaining about the lack of conflict, and that he saw the discussions as somewhat of a waste of time, since everybody agreed and seemed to talk about the same things. I suppose this made sense. However, then he finished with this line:
"so, I encourage all the white men present to NOT take the stand." (in order to save time)
He was basically saying that white men are expendable, and that their time to express ideas would have to be sacrificed, to make sure that the non-whites and the women got their chance to speak.
When he said those words, I was shocked, and I remember looking at the other party members for a reaction, but noone seemed to care. And guess what? This guy was white himself. Their way of saving time, is to suppress the ideas of those who represent the wrong gender and cultural background. This party is expected to win the 2014 election, as a minor party in a coalition government. The other 2 parties that would be part of that coalition are a bit larger and not as extreme, but they too have feminism high up on their agenda.
These discussions about what a real feminist stands for is just irrelevant. Yes, there are saintly feminists who wouldn't hurt a fly, but unless they hold any power in society, they're irrelevant. Look at the feminist politicians, and look at the influential feminist organizations, and also look at the schools and what feminist ideas they're educating us about. The kind of feminism that you find in these areas. That's the feminism that has an impact on society, so it's that feminism that you need to examine thoroughly, not the feminism of the girl next door.
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This thread makes me really sad. Do you guys who say feminism is a bad thing really think all is well in Western countries with gender roles, objectification, oversexing, etc?
Heck, never mind that, do you not understand the "equal rights under the law" you think are evidence of equality are the product of feminist agitation? What is your ideal world? 60's gender roles? The West today? Wahhabist Saudi Arabia?
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On January 13 2014 10:30 L1ghtning wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 13:14 Djzapz wrote:
Women don't have equal rights in practice. You're right in that part of the feminist movement is garbage but there are still issues. Can you name me an example in a western country where women have less rights than men? I can't. However, I could name a few examples where the opposite is true.
They have equal rights on paper. In practice they're still discriminated against and oftentimes are paid less for the same work, among other things. I can also name examples where men are discriminated against, namely when children are involved, and that's a problem too.
The problem has nothing to do with the laws, it's all about the social problems and gender discrimination that still exist to a varying extent in some parts of society. Denying their existence is ridiculous.
That said, I'm also the kind of guy who sighs at almost everything I hear from feminists because they're doing fucking everything wrong. At this point, the ones who have a voice in the media and online are batshit crazy. And the women who fight against discrimination can't get a voice amid the sea of bullshit.
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On January 13 2014 10:48 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 10:30 L1ghtning wrote:On January 12 2014 13:14 Djzapz wrote:
Women don't have equal rights in practice. You're right in that part of the feminist movement is garbage but there are still issues. Can you name me an example in a western country where women have less rights than men? I can't. However, I could name a few examples where the opposite is true. They have equal rights on paper. In practice they're still discriminated against and oftentimes are paid less for the same work, among other things. I can also name examples where men are discriminated against, namely when children are involved, and that's a problem too. The problem has nothing to do with the laws, it's all about the social problems and gender discrimination that still exist to a varying extent in some parts of society. Denying their existence is ridiculous. That said, I'm also the kind of guy who sighs at almost everything I hear from feminists because they're doing fucking everything wrong. At this point, the ones who have a voice in the media and online are batshit crazy. And the women who fight against discrimination can't get a voice amid the sea of bullshit.
The pay gap is a myth that has been proven false many times. The problem is that feminists keeps bringing up studies where crucial factors hasn't been accounted for. Of course men makes more money on average. That's because we work longer hours, are less likely to take a break from work, we're better educated, and because we are more likely to pick the high wage occupations. That's just a few of the factors. Feminists acts like these factors doesn't exist when they conduct their studies.
I made a good comparison earlier, with cheap chinese labour replacing western labour, where I showed that businessmen can't afford to discriminate. Businesses are only interested in money, and if women were cheaper than men, the salaries of men would have to be pushed down, or they wouldn't be able to get jobs. Once again, this is simple supply and demand.
You can't even name a valid example of where women are discriminated against.
On January 13 2014 10:46 Yoav wrote:
This thread makes me really sad. Do you guys who say feminism is a bad thing really think all is well in Western countries with gender roles, objectification, oversexing, etc?
Heck, never mind that, do you not understand the "equal rights under the law" you think are evidence of equality are the product of feminist agitation? What is your ideal world? 60's gender roles? The West today? Wahhabist Saudi Arabia?
The idea that feminism is necessary because "feminism created the equality we have today" is ridiculous. The statement itself is highly debatable, and also, it's exactly like saying that we need Christianity because of what Jesus Christ accomplished (assuming his story is true). Even if Jesus Christ is legit, that doesn't make "his" church true. Which church has the true faith? Which version of feminism today is the true version?
You're being very naive. Capitalism values exactly what the masses value. This is why objectification of the female sex sells. It's the same thing with men. I'm not sure if it's to the same extent, but if not, it's just a result of a lack of demand. Maybe men are just more interested in sex than women are? Maybe having that huge abundance of testosterone does affect us after all?
Anyway, it's funny that you mentioned gender roles, since feminism tries to force gender neutral gender roles upon all of us, even those who prefer more traditional roles. I definately support flexible gender roles. That's just another reason why I can't support feminism.
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On January 14 2014 00:23 L1ghtning wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 10:48 Djzapz wrote:On January 13 2014 10:30 L1ghtning wrote:On January 12 2014 13:14 Djzapz wrote:
Women don't have equal rights in practice. You're right in that part of the feminist movement is garbage but there are still issues. Can you name me an example in a western country where women have less rights than men? I can't. However, I could name a few examples where the opposite is true. They have equal rights on paper. In practice they're still discriminated against and oftentimes are paid less for the same work, among other things. I can also name examples where men are discriminated against, namely when children are involved, and that's a problem too. The problem has nothing to do with the laws, it's all about the social problems and gender discrimination that still exist to a varying extent in some parts of society. Denying their existence is ridiculous. That said, I'm also the kind of guy who sighs at almost everything I hear from feminists because they're doing fucking everything wrong. At this point, the ones who have a voice in the media and online are batshit crazy. And the women who fight against discrimination can't get a voice amid the sea of bullshit. The pay gap is a myth that has been proven false many times. The problem is that feminists keeps bringing up studies where crucial factors hasn't been accounted for. Of course men makes more money on average. That's because we work longer hours, are less likely to take a break from work, we're better educated, and because we are more likely to pick the high wage occupations. That's just a few of the factors. Feminists acts like these factors doesn't exist when they conduct their studies. I made a good comparison earlier, with cheap chinese labour replacing western labour, where I showed that businessmen can't afford to discriminate. Businesses are only interested in money, and if women were cheaper than men, the salaries of men would have to be pushed down, or they wouldn't be able to get jobs. Once again, this is simple supply and demand. You can't even name a valid example of where women are discriminated against.
I'm in class and I think you're very biased so I don't intend to reason with you too long. That said, I know many employers who don't hire women because they get pregnant. My cousin is a partner at an engineering firm. His brother's wife works there, and she was lined up for a partnership with the firm. She lost it when she get knocked up.
Supply and demand is great if you assume it to be right like the dumb sheeple you appear to be, but the free market left to its own devices is filth.
As for your denial that there are social problems that make women's lives harder in the plethora of social problems which fuck with everybody, I'm forced to assume that you're disingenuous too. There's still social and cultural prejudice existing in varying degrees even in our countries which prevent (SOME) women from doing what they want, or discourages them from doing it.
As for the income thing, I know that.
Lastly, your blind faith in the market and capitalism is laughable and despicable. And yes, feminism did play a huge role in getting women equal rights (at least on paper). You say it's highly debatable, but women taking to the streets did change the world. It's a direct result. It could have happened another way but history is not written in 'if's'. You can't just dismiss historical facts just because they're compatible with your bullshit ideology.
PS: Again, I'm highly critical of feminism most of the time, but I firmly believe that you have a biased, unreasonable position.
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Talking to most people about feminism is like talking to nooby RTS players who theorycrafts all day and refuse to do even the most basic research. They do nothing but listen to themselves and create their own reality about the topic they are engaging in and always find excuses for things that contradict the fantasy world they live in.
Perhaps another way of explaining this is that such people spend more time arguing against their deranged constructions.
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On January 14 2014 00:54 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:23 L1ghtning wrote:On January 13 2014 10:48 Djzapz wrote:On January 13 2014 10:30 L1ghtning wrote:On January 12 2014 13:14 Djzapz wrote:
Women don't have equal rights in practice. You're right in that part of the feminist movement is garbage but there are still issues. Can you name me an example in a western country where women have less rights than men? I can't. However, I could name a few examples where the opposite is true. They have equal rights on paper. In practice they're still discriminated against and oftentimes are paid less for the same work, among other things. I can also name examples where men are discriminated against, namely when children are involved, and that's a problem too. The problem has nothing to do with the laws, it's all about the social problems and gender discrimination that still exist to a varying extent in some parts of society. Denying their existence is ridiculous. That said, I'm also the kind of guy who sighs at almost everything I hear from feminists because they're doing fucking everything wrong. At this point, the ones who have a voice in the media and online are batshit crazy. And the women who fight against discrimination can't get a voice amid the sea of bullshit. The pay gap is a myth that has been proven false many times. The problem is that feminists keeps bringing up studies where crucial factors hasn't been accounted for. Of course men makes more money on average. That's because we work longer hours, are less likely to take a break from work, we're better educated, and because we are more likely to pick the high wage occupations. That's just a few of the factors. Feminists acts like these factors doesn't exist when they conduct their studies. I made a good comparison earlier, with cheap chinese labour replacing western labour, where I showed that businessmen can't afford to discriminate. Businesses are only interested in money, and if women were cheaper than men, the salaries of men would have to be pushed down, or they wouldn't be able to get jobs. Once again, this is simple supply and demand. You can't even name a valid example of where women are discriminated against. I'm in class and I think you're very biased so I don't intend to reason with you too long. That said, I know many employers who don't hire women because they get pregnant. My cousin is a partner at an engineering firm. His brother's wife works there, and she was lined up for a partnership with the firm. She lost it when she get knocked up. Supply and demand is great if you assume it to be right like the dumb sheeple you appear to be, but the free market left to its own devices is filth. As for your denial that there are social problems that make women's lives harder in the plethora of social problems which fuck with everybody, I'm forced to assume that you're disingenuous too. There's still social and cultural prejudice existing in varying degrees even in our countries which prevent (SOME) women from doing what they want, or discourages them from doing it. As for the income thing, I know that. Lastly, your blind faith in the market and capitalism is laughable and despicable. And yes, feminism did play a huge role in getting women equal rights (at least on paper). You say it's highly debatable, but women taking to the streets did change the world. It's a direct result. It could have happened another way but history is not written in 'if's'. You can't just dismiss historical facts just because they're compatible with your bullshit ideology. PS: Again, I'm highly critical of feminism most of the time, but I firmly believe that you have a biased, unreasonable position.
I think i can agree to a lot of what you said in this post.
I still think there is a bias towards men and women in general, i dont think one should argue about that. But taking the other side and saying all is about bias instead of denial of any bias isnt the right way either.
What cracks me up about such people is the lack for a healthy middle ground, people always take it to the extremes. Extremes do not make sense, not everything is black and white. Especially this discussion has many shades of grey (no phun intended :D).
Every movement or party that thinks in the extremes will fail over time, and i will see this happening to feminism. Modern feminism, if it continues going down this road will ultimately alienate people from it taking the oppostion and will only leave very few delusional people. So in the end such people and the current path they are choosing to go will result in failure, they are hurting their goals.
Also the "hivemind" mentallity will not help either. People that have a healthy approach to this topic (feminists or not) have to speak up against bullshit. You cannot ignore it because you think people will exclude you and say "if you say that you are not a feminist", they also have to distance themselves from malicous persons instead of enouraging them or tolerate their actions.
But sadly as everywhere the most unintelligent have the biggest voice.
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On January 14 2014 04:29 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:54 Djzapz wrote:On January 14 2014 00:23 L1ghtning wrote:On January 13 2014 10:48 Djzapz wrote:On January 13 2014 10:30 L1ghtning wrote:On January 12 2014 13:14 Djzapz wrote:
Women don't have equal rights in practice. You're right in that part of the feminist movement is garbage but there are still issues. Can you name me an example in a western country where women have less rights than men? I can't. However, I could name a few examples where the opposite is true. They have equal rights on paper. In practice they're still discriminated against and oftentimes are paid less for the same work, among other things. I can also name examples where men are discriminated against, namely when children are involved, and that's a problem too. The problem has nothing to do with the laws, it's all about the social problems and gender discrimination that still exist to a varying extent in some parts of society. Denying their existence is ridiculous. That said, I'm also the kind of guy who sighs at almost everything I hear from feminists because they're doing fucking everything wrong. At this point, the ones who have a voice in the media and online are batshit crazy. And the women who fight against discrimination can't get a voice amid the sea of bullshit. The pay gap is a myth that has been proven false many times. The problem is that feminists keeps bringing up studies where crucial factors hasn't been accounted for. Of course men makes more money on average. That's because we work longer hours, are less likely to take a break from work, we're better educated, and because we are more likely to pick the high wage occupations. That's just a few of the factors. Feminists acts like these factors doesn't exist when they conduct their studies. I made a good comparison earlier, with cheap chinese labour replacing western labour, where I showed that businessmen can't afford to discriminate. Businesses are only interested in money, and if women were cheaper than men, the salaries of men would have to be pushed down, or they wouldn't be able to get jobs. Once again, this is simple supply and demand. You can't even name a valid example of where women are discriminated against. I'm in class and I think you're very biased so I don't intend to reason with you too long. That said, I know many employers who don't hire women because they get pregnant. My cousin is a partner at an engineering firm. His brother's wife works there, and she was lined up for a partnership with the firm. She lost it when she get knocked up. Supply and demand is great if you assume it to be right like the dumb sheeple you appear to be, but the free market left to its own devices is filth. As for your denial that there are social problems that make women's lives harder in the plethora of social problems which fuck with everybody, I'm forced to assume that you're disingenuous too. There's still social and cultural prejudice existing in varying degrees even in our countries which prevent (SOME) women from doing what they want, or discourages them from doing it. As for the income thing, I know that. Lastly, your blind faith in the market and capitalism is laughable and despicable. And yes, feminism did play a huge role in getting women equal rights (at least on paper). You say it's highly debatable, but women taking to the streets did change the world. It's a direct result. It could have happened another way but history is not written in 'if's'. You can't just dismiss historical facts just because they're compatible with your bullshit ideology. PS: Again, I'm highly critical of feminism most of the time, but I firmly believe that you have a biased, unreasonable position. What cracks me up about such people is the lack for a healthy middle ground, people always take it to the extremes. Extremes do not make sense, not everything is black and white. Especially this discussion has many shades of grey (no phun intended :D).
Yeah, although I obviously can't have perfect objectivity (being human and all), I think I'm capable of having a fairly nuanced view in most things. In most arguments, I find myself arguing with both sides of the argument at the same time. In this debate, I think that most arguments made by feminists are ridiculous, and I'm also annoyed at people who outright deny the existence of sexual discrimination and other such social issues.
I believe that a rational feminism still has its place in society. And like you said, only the stupid ones seem to have a voice now. Anita Sarkeesian is not doing anyone any good with her BS, for instance. But that doesn't mean that feminism is obsolete.
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Well, Sweden does have some of the most pro-female laws in the whole world, so I guess that's also a part of why Lightning is so outspoken on this matter. I've read about some of the Swedish laws concerning divorce and alimony and that stuff and I thought they were quite harsh on men actually.
I also want to chime in on the "sexualization of society" bit. I think that both men and women are getting disadvantages of it, not just the women.
And as a last thing, please let kids play with whatever toys they want and don't sue toy companies because they made a commercial with a girl playing with barbies and a boy playing with race cars.
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EPT
