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Interesting series of documentaries about feminism - Page 7

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Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
November 19 2013 05:23 GMT
#121
On November 19 2013 09:23 Zealos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2013 08:30 jcroisdale wrote:
feminist like racist 100 years ago. In time people will realize they were ignorant and actually were fighting against equality.

What does this even mean? o.O


It actually sounded like some kind of caveman syntax
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25050 Posts
November 19 2013 16:57 GMT
#122
On November 19 2013 13:25 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2013 10:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
On November 19 2013 10:09 Xiphos wrote:
Women are better at some things while men are better at others.

Its a synergic system we have crafted long ago.

You can't be awesome at everything, there must be tradeoff.

/close thread.

Seriously you guys are writing paragraph long essay when everything is just so simple that it hurts.

What are women better at, and men better at, inherently?

Men are naturally physically stronger on average.
Everything else could be social constructs as far as I know.

Some people argue that we're intellectually exactly the same in every way and it's society that shapes us to be the way we are. As far as I can tell, that would be a curious and incredible coincidence. There probably are some potentially marginal and irrelevant differences on average where one sex is better than the other - yet there's no real way to test for it until we raise hundreds if not thousands children in a controlled environment for the sake of testing their cognitive capacities over the course of their life...

Meh! It's just that whole nature vs. nurture debate that we'll never get rid off. The thing is especially annoying to discuss because you have die hard supporters of both sides who refuse to understand that different people have different innate faculties AND their environment shapes them also.

It's a complex issue, or at least something difficult to prove without large-scale unethical experiments.

Going to make a real big push to become planetary overlord so I can settle this once and for all.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
November 19 2013 17:12 GMT
#123
On November 19 2013 10:09 Xiphos wrote:
Women are better at some things while men are better at others.

Its a synergic system we have crafted long ago.

You can't be awesome at everything, there must be tradeoff.

/close thread.

Seriously you guys are writing paragraph long essay when everything is just so simple that it hurts.


Really? I must be missing something because I actually thought it was a rather complex issue. Glad to hear you have solved this shit though, maybe you can enlighten the rest of us with your superior understanding.
jacevedo
Profile Blog Joined November 2013
31 Posts
November 19 2013 17:30 GMT
#124
On November 20 2013 01:57 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2013 13:25 Djzapz wrote:
On November 19 2013 10:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
On November 19 2013 10:09 Xiphos wrote:
Women are better at some things while men are better at others.

Its a synergic system we have crafted long ago.

You can't be awesome at everything, there must be tradeoff.

/close thread.

Seriously you guys are writing paragraph long essay when everything is just so simple that it hurts.

What are women better at, and men better at, inherently?

Men are naturally physically stronger on average.
Everything else could be social constructs as far as I know.

Some people argue that we're intellectually exactly the same in every way and it's society that shapes us to be the way we are. As far as I can tell, that would be a curious and incredible coincidence. There probably are some potentially marginal and irrelevant differences on average where one sex is better than the other - yet there's no real way to test for it until we raise hundreds if not thousands children in a controlled environment for the sake of testing their cognitive capacities over the course of their life...

Meh! It's just that whole nature vs. nurture debate that we'll never get rid off. The thing is especially annoying to discuss because you have die hard supporters of both sides who refuse to understand that different people have different innate faculties AND their environment shapes them also.

It's a complex issue, or at least something difficult to prove without large-scale unethical experiments.

Going to make a real big push to become planetary overlord so I can settle this once and for all.

We don't need unethical experiments. We already have a decent enough control group: babies. And the experiments with babies have already been done. Those experiments have strongly suggested there are in fact significant biological differences between the sexes.

Obviously the nature/nurture debate is stupid because it's clearly both, but I think it's fair to say that most experiments today have supported the Nature side of the debate where academia previously pushed Nurture, and biology is progressing in that direction. Unfortunately most people don't hear about these findings so much, because they are terribly inconvenient premises for the sociologists and other potential architects of utopia.
"Freedom is overrated anyway." -Kwark
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-19 22:07:12
November 19 2013 22:04 GMT
#125
--- Nuked ---
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
November 21 2013 16:10 GMT
#126
On November 20 2013 07:04 Barrin wrote:
When I was younger (not long ago really) I would take pride in being "chivalrous"; I didn't like the idea that "chivalry is dead." For whatever reasons I had a kind of fantasy where I would rescue some "damsel in distress" along with performing some severe act of "retribution". I would take offense when people were condescending towards "white knights" and immediately assumed they were culprits of "chauvinism".

I now know that I was being extremely naive. I now hope that I am never unfortunate enough to be in a situation where it would be up to me to enact "justice" with immediate violence (not that I purposely avoid it). If I ever find myself there I hope I will do what is necessary, damsel or not. I wish feminism was about equality for everyone, but I'm afraid that might not be the case in a lot of circles.

---

What really started to change my mind was this middle-aged female YouTuber who takes a stance against misandry. You can find her channel here, but there is a higher concentration of videos I've seen if you type "girlwriteswhat" into the YouTube search box. Unfortunately she is long-winded, but she is quite knowledgeable on the subject and very rational, and frankly listening to a woman bash misandry/"feminism" is distinctly convincing.

I am afraid one risks becoming misogynistic when consuming too much of www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill, but there are many great examples of modern misandry posted within. If you frequent this place, a good dose of The Art of Manliness can help you from becoming an asshole and getting stuck in the Alpha/Beta paradigm.

The nature of http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights makes it decidedly biased (and not without misogyny), but if you're still on the fence about whether or not men have gender-specific issues then it's worth checking out.

---

In my other/first post in this thread, I mentioned that I don't think freedoms should be denied (or even discouraged in society) based on sex or gender. I want to clarify that and say that I believe in meritocracy, where the people who are most qualified for a certain job should always get the job over someone less qualified. (This also means that I lean against Affirmative Action, but that's a different story.)

In an attempt to counteract any pro-male bias above, let me reiterate the fact that in our "patriarchal society" (U.S.), women tend to make significantly less than men even for the same jobs.[1], [2], [3] (<- all PDF).

edit: 'misandry' to 'misandry/"feminism"'

Or you can read http://manboobz.com/ which looks at something horrible and toxic like the red pill and turns it into mocking comedy to allow people to cope with such things existing in the world. Or if you want to read comments about how girlwriteswhat is a total idiot that doesn't know what she's talking about.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17971 Posts
December 11 2013 17:57 GMT
#127
In a widely-read study, business school students were given a case assignment on Heidi, a real-life successful entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. But there was a catch. Half of the class randomly received their case with one teensy tiny change made: The name "Heidi" was changed to "Howard." Afterward, the students were surveyed, and though Heidi and Howard were found equally competent (as they should have been because they are the same person), the students found Howard much more likeable. The following ad pretty much sums up why.




Source
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 13 2013 00:38 GMT
#128
On December 12 2013 02:57 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
In a widely-read study, business school students were given a case assignment on Heidi, a real-life successful entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. But there was a catch. Half of the class randomly received their case with one teensy tiny change made: The name "Heidi" was changed to "Howard." Afterward, the students were surveyed, and though Heidi and Howard were found equally competent (as they should have been because they are the same person), the students found Howard much more likeable. The following ad pretty much sums up why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kOjNcZvwjxI


Source

All of our deep-seated hatred of women is instilled at a young age. We must reverse this trend before students grow to be of business school age! Forward march!
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-13 00:53:36
December 13 2013 00:46 GMT
#129
On December 12 2013 02:57 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
In a widely-read study, business school students were given a case assignment on Heidi, a real-life successful entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. But there was a catch. Half of the class randomly received their case with one teensy tiny change made: The name "Heidi" was changed to "Howard." Afterward, the students were surveyed, and though Heidi and Howard were found equally competent (as they should have been because they are the same person), the students found Howard much more likeable. The following ad pretty much sums up why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kOjNcZvwjxI


Source

How many business school students and why are business school students representative of widespread social issues? I would argue, and I mean no offense to individual business school students, that the scum of the earth misogynists are probably over-represented in that area of study.

Also this video is a bit annoying. It does bring up valid points in such a clumsy way...
Boss -> Bossy. Everybody complains that their Boss is bossy, male or female.
Persuasive -> Pushy. Those are completely different things that can clearly be about both men and women.
Dedicated -> Selfish. This might be a thing for the people who think women should be limited to their "motherly duties" or whatever.
Neat -> Vain. I'm frankly more likely to mock guys who do this. It's bad of me but this one is complete bullshit.
Smooth -> Show-off. That never happened in the history of the last 20 years, what the fuck.

Prejudice is omnipresents with women being discriminated against in many if not most areas of life. I'm not surprised that Pantene would only come up with a bullshit 1 minute clip on "labels" that don't actually exist in society.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
dark0dave
Profile Joined November 2010
179 Posts
January 07 2014 01:49 GMT
#130
On November 15 2013 23:09 Zealos wrote:
That was some of the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever heard. Please just post it on the MRA reddit, where men like to complain about how hard they have it, instead of leaving it sitting on a forum that I read regularly.
The interview video is good though ^^

Hear hear, however there are issues for the male community. That being said sexism against women is still rampent. If you doubt this, look for any strong female characters in video games.
What is dead may never die. BW forever.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5531 Posts
January 07 2014 09:02 GMT
#131
Why should a survey of fantasy game characters be the first thing you go to when characterizing the problems between the sexes?
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
hummingbird23
Profile Joined September 2011
Norway359 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-07 09:16:10
January 07 2014 09:10 GMT
#132
On January 07 2014 18:02 oBlade wrote:
Why should a survey of fantasy game characters be the first thing you go to when characterizing the problems between the sexes?


Because it's a facet of culture. The same way that one might characterize say, common themes and tropes in Hollywood action films. To use the word "first" is misleading, it's one of many things that can be analyzed. People write what they think, unconsciously. And also, especially in video game culture (and virtually everything else), it's not just "problems between the sexes", but rather "problems about the portrayal of both sexes".
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
January 07 2014 13:40 GMT
#133
I hate arguing or even considering arguing about the merits of feminism. In its modest, broad and most reasonable incarnation, feminism is so plainly rational and necessary in a modern society that it hurts my brain to even countenance not accepting it. However, I am interested in the debate which seems to have popped its head above the parapet in thispage, after the standard back and forth about the more prosaic topics died out; about whether RPG characters should have any difference in their base stats depending on their gender. I'll just consider strength here because it's the most argued about (in my experience).

My conclusion after having pondered it for a while is that there should be no difference - the people in any imagined (but ultimately similar to our) world who are going to grow up to become, for example, 'fighters', are not usual, standard people. Those standard people are doing the farming and the fishing. In whatever circumstance a woman or man could become something like a fighter, they would almost certainly have to have a certain strength and ability about them. Games, like movies, are all about creating a character whose story can be as unique as it needs to be to have them be the protagonist - for that reason, despite the fact that it might be rarer in today's society or any other society to find a woman who is as strong as a *strong* man, there's no reason why our protagonist in question can't be that rare person.

I should also point out that in a fantasy context, the strength and body structure required to fight handily with swords and shields is fairly unique. It takes a certain type of body control and endurance rather than simply muscle mass, and in terms of being effective with weapons, it can be closer to golf than it can to, say, chopping wood. I have a friend who is a reenactor who also fights with real, blunted weapons, who has told me several of the women in his company are as tough a task as any of the men to defeat.

A final point is that the term 'strength' covers so much that it would be a little ridiculous to cut down women's as standard. Strength often goes into 'chance to hit' which is clearly bizarre to give women a penalty in. Carrying weight - seeing as this isn't about making a one-time push but literally carrying things around - it's heavily based on endurance and mental tolerance, and I don't see how there is any sense in arguing that all women should start off at a disadvantage to men in that aspect. Damage done to enemy when they hit - to be honest, you are never going to be swinging at your maximum strength in a fight. You put in what you need to do to get your sharp, heavy blade to slice or stab your opponent - which isn't much. It's more about timing and accuracy. Even wielding a warhammer or battleaxe requires a lot more craft than just bashing your opponent - and even when considering this, you will mostly be letting the weight of the weapon do the 'talking'.

I'm sorry if this is wildly off topic for the purists...just felt like picking up a topic that hasn't already been beaten to death and is still something of a 'hot point' in video game culture.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5281 Posts
January 07 2014 14:24 GMT
#134
On December 13 2013 09:46 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2013 02:57 Acrofales wrote:
In a widely-read study, business school students were given a case assignment on Heidi, a real-life successful entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. But there was a catch. Half of the class randomly received their case with one teensy tiny change made: The name "Heidi" was changed to "Howard." Afterward, the students were surveyed, and though Heidi and Howard were found equally competent (as they should have been because they are the same person), the students found Howard much more likeable. The following ad pretty much sums up why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kOjNcZvwjxI


Source

How many business school students and why are business school students representative of widespread social issues? I would argue, and I mean no offense to individual business school students, that the scum of the earth misogynists are probably over-represented in that area of study.

Also this video is a bit annoying. It does bring up valid points in such a clumsy way...
Boss -> Bossy. Everybody complains that their Boss is bossy, male or female.
Persuasive -> Pushy. Those are completely different things that can clearly be about both men and women.
Dedicated -> Selfish. This might be a thing for the people who think women should be limited to their "motherly duties" or whatever.
Neat -> Vain. I'm frankly more likely to mock guys who do this. It's bad of me but this one is complete bullshit.
Smooth -> Show-off. That never happened in the history of the last 20 years, what the fuck.

Prejudice is omnipresents with women being discriminated against in many if not most areas of life. I'm not surprised that Pantene would only come up with a bullshit 1 minute clip on "labels" that don't actually exist in society.

it is actually way simpler: men are perceived as good while women perceived as evil.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
rezoacken
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2719 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-07 20:16:01
January 07 2014 19:54 GMT
#135
On January 07 2014 10:49 dark0dave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2013 23:09 Zealos wrote:
That was some of the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever heard. Please just post it on the MRA reddit, where men like to complain about how hard they have it, instead of leaving it sitting on a forum that I read regularly.
The interview video is good though ^^

Hear hear, however there are issues for the male community. That being said sexism against women is still rampent. If you doubt this, look for any strong female characters in video games.


If you call that sexism then it goes both way. When the primary audience for a media is women, they paint men the way it pleases them (songs, women magazines, some movies/TV-shows). When the primary audience is men, they paint women the way it pleases them (car magazines, video games).

But to begin with, I don't even agree this is a problem. If you want to argue sexism, which I think exists (both ways), pick a subject that really matters like jobs, education, rights etc.

Edit: And I'm annoyed I cannot access the study in question (a few posts above) without having to pay the PDF.
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
Dark_Chill
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada3353 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-07 20:57:56
January 07 2014 20:57 GMT
#136
Alright, so, this thread has had a large number of opinions clashing. Still, one thing that really interested me was discussions on the job market and the general split in the sexes. Someone brought up the idea that in a capitalist society, this can't happen because the businesses hiring the superior workers would win out should women be superior workers held back by their sex. I'd like to slightly go against this statement.

For most companies you'd need a tremendous difference in skill or intelligence to really see one company dominate others. It's possible that going into a somewhat untapped employee pool would bring a new perspective which might help a company/business, but that really shouldn't be the case. It is entirely possible that men are being considered more for certain high position jobs and a higher percent female workforce would not give one company an edge over the other. You can, however, still argue that female individuals who are far more competent than other male individuals aren't getting the job due to sexism, but I find that's a really strange argument to make (employers in large companies I'd guess like money more than they like to make their workforce primarily male). So I do believe it's possible that sexism may be a final decider for two equally skilled or similarly skilled employees. A mandatory 50/50 split should make sense (AS LONG AS THERE ARE AN EQUAL NUMBER OF APPLICANTS. IF THERE AREN'T, THEN A SPLIT BASED ON THE APPLICANT POOLS SIZE IS MORE APPROPRIATE).

Someone else brought up the idea that if sexism wasn't around (loose summary), then you'd expect to see a natural 50/50 split. If you didn't, then biological reasons should account for the difference. Makes sense. So then the argument follows that this possible biological difference can influence the situation while social biases are present. Neurochemical and biological differences certainly say it's possible, but from what I understand, the degree of differences shouldn't be that big in abilities. Physique-wise, a woman working out to the same degree as a man won't be incredibly far behind the man in terms of strength, which is why saying the average woman is weaker than the average man by a good degree is pretty stupid to chock up to biology. Men tend to work out more than women on average, and casually going to the gym or even taking gym classes more seriously in school is not that uncommon, whereas less importance is placed on physical fitness for women (past a certain extent, of course). The reason for this whole paragraph of text is to say that there may be a reason for women not being represented well in job requiring physical labor outside of biology, and takes much more from a social aspect. The reason this is important is because despite this, there isn't any mandatory 50/50 split for service individuals in companies requiring good amounts of physical fitness. So, the 50/50 rule isn't applied evenly to all professions.

And last comment, the point of that last paragraph or so was to say that I agree that the 50/50 rule for employment is relatively stupid, as it doesn't actually try to make society equal. It makes whichever jobs people feel are important more equal.
CUTE MAKES RIGHT
Yuljan
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
2196 Posts
January 08 2014 00:45 GMT
#137
On December 12 2013 02:57 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
In a widely-read study, business school students were given a case assignment on Heidi, a real-life successful entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. But there was a catch. Half of the class randomly received their case with one teensy tiny change made: The name "Heidi" was changed to "Howard." Afterward, the students were surveyed, and though Heidi and Howard were found equally competent (as they should have been because they are the same person), the students found Howard much more likeable. The following ad pretty much sums up why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kOjNcZvwjxI


Source


not significant. The name Heidi is clearly of german origin and a negative attitude towards germans might have changed the results considerably.
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-08 03:29:29
January 08 2014 03:11 GMT
#138
On January 08 2014 09:45 Yuljan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2013 02:57 Acrofales wrote:
In a widely-read study, business school students were given a case assignment on Heidi, a real-life successful entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. But there was a catch. Half of the class randomly received their case with one teensy tiny change made: The name "Heidi" was changed to "Howard." Afterward, the students were surveyed, and though Heidi and Howard were found equally competent (as they should have been because they are the same person), the students found Howard much more likeable. The following ad pretty much sums up why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kOjNcZvwjxI


Source


not significant. The name Heidi is clearly of german origin and a negative attitude towards germans might have changed the results considerably.

Seriously? The entire world is not Greece.

However, that commercial was disgusting. It basically took a legitimate issue, in this case women's rights and tried to use it to sell a product . Buy Pantene to show that you are against labels concerning the sexes. But something does tell me that most people did not notice this was a commercial for a shiny hair product.
AnachronisticAnarchy
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States2957 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-08 04:15:32
January 08 2014 04:13 GMT
#139
On January 07 2014 10:49 dark0dave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2013 23:09 Zealos wrote:
That was some of the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever heard. Please just post it on the MRA reddit, where men like to complain about how hard they have it, instead of leaving it sitting on a forum that I read regularly.
The interview video is good though ^^

Hear hear, however there are issues for the male community. That being said sexism against women is still rampent. If you doubt this, look for any strong female characters in video games.

Indirect evidence of the issue is usually bad for making a point, especially when citing information from a industry that has good reason to design games for men: they make up most of the consumer base, especially for the less casual products. As a guy who is almost incapable of things like sexism and racism, I never really cared about the lack of strong female characters. Just didn't give a shit until some people got uppity and said that if there aren't tons girls in games, the games are sexist and they turn the guys playing them into sexists, at which point I got uppity because they're fucking with my games.
Perhaps a better way to make your point would be to cite the flame Anita Sarkeesian got. No matter your opinion about her video series, people got really pissed and they really crossed too many lines.
"How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain."
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
January 08 2014 20:30 GMT
#140
I don't understand, aren't there a ton of strong female characters in video games? (including a whole bunch of lead characters) I would think the proportion is greater in video games than in other story driven media, which is quite impressive for an industry that has a very male consumer base. The female characters in video games are almost always there for a reason of their own, rather than in movies and books where the female characters much more often are just there to develop the male lead's character.
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