I just found out today about a certain site that allows you to do people's homework for cost. I'm still trying to wrap my head around just how big this is (One user made 35000 in 400 days doing other people's homework) but it really, really bothers me on an ethical standpoint. I work at a University and am working on a PhD at said university as well. So what ethical problems?
Firstly, the most obvious one is that people are cheating. This, oddly enough, is not the most important ethical issue at hand here. People cheat and in the long run it comes back to get them usually (if they do it a lot). This one is not so bothersome. Besides, this stuff happened before a mainstream site acted as a middleman and really popularized it.
The second issue is this advocacy for cheating. This is what trips me up. If someone can make a decent sum of money on the side for doing the odd assignment for students then the incentive is just ridiculous. What I mean is, financially, it would be hard for many professionals to resist making 300$ to write a paper for some kid. Of course the underlying issue there is wages for teachers and professors.
And finally I really find it as a disturbing social commentary on the way the education system works and is seen. The whole point of going to school is to learn these things yourself. I think it's also interesting as another service completely unavailable for poorer people. Someone with money can pay a professor to do all of the coursework for them and get all A's.
Yes, I have huge issues about this. First of all, they are graduating with an inflated mark. If the school has a bellcurve, not only are they getting a degree which you don't deserve, they are harming those who deserve higher marks by skewing the bellcurve.
More importantly, they have not learned the skills you needed to learn in school, and will completely screw over every employer over. Many people not graduating without the proper skills (and these people are usually lazy) leads to terrible productivity at work.
In terms of doing homework for money, its really sad that there are not enough jobs out there that so many people are resorting to doing these things. Even if they're very lucrative, it's just ethically wrong.
As you said, it does usually come back to bite them. Either way, I go to college where I know a good amount of people who have tutors who do their work for them or just use the internet to get their work done for them, the latter costing nothing at all. i at least like the former a bit more because the people cheating are having an immediate cost apply to them. People who are less rich than others will usually have less opportunities and advantages than others. That in itself is really hard to change. Still, in this situation the less privileged end up winning. Not only are the rich spending more money, they are learning less and have no real idea how to do their work, while the less privileged put more work in for better end results. The method described above is not something really approve of, but I at least acknowledge it as being better than others, as the person who helps to get the work done is being rewarded fairly.
With all the free resources out there to write a paper (i.e. your own brain power and research) I don't understand the point of it. As far as homework outside of papers goes, I partake in using sites like Cramster as a great asset to learning, and being as its free and has almost every solution worked out and explained, I don't see a problem. The theory behind homework is to help the student reinforce what is being taught to them. If they are passing the exams/final with ease and "cheating" on their homework, I fail to see the issue. Personally, I still don't do homework and I'm in my 4th semester of college and I have no issues when it comes to the exams/finals as an engineering student. The homework that I do turn in is usually copy and pasted off of WolframAlpha or Cramster.
Edit: I do not find cheating on homework ethically wrong, no. But mostly because I have never, NEVER found homework useful in MY learning. Tests/exams/finals are about "testing" how well you can memorize information and apply it. I do have issues with cheating here because this is what determines how well you grasp what you are supposed to have learned.
A huge problem in universities is just how grading/tests are done. Your degree is important, not your grades (few exceptions). And for many people, unless your degree is highly, highly applicable to your job; then the skills/knowledge you acquired will largely be unneeded. Obviously, some fields more so than others have a higher carry-over rate for applied concepts.
Am I OK w/ it? Not really. But I'm less OK with how grading on the whole is done for most university courses.
On January 10 2012 00:09 peidongyang wrote: Yes, I have huge issues about this. First of all, they are graduating with an inflated mark. If the school has a bellcurve, not only are they getting a degree which you don't deserve, they are harming those who deserve higher marks by skewing the bellcurve.
More importantly, they have not learned the skills you needed to learn in school, and will completely screw over every employer over. Many people not graduating without the proper skills (and these people are usually lazy) leads to terrible productivity at work.
In terms of doing homework for money, its really sad that there are not enough jobs out there that so many people are resorting to doing these things. Even if they're very lucrative, it's just ethically wrong.
Hmm, I didn't think about the consequences it'll bring onto other people. in things where the class average is used as an indicator, I could see how it could affect the rest of the people, especially when you have your work done by people who really know what they're doing. In later life however, I'd hope that employers are a bit better at filtering out people who don't really know their profession. Still, there exist other, more ethically wrong methods of cheating, which is why I'd rather this than just going up on something like wolfram and having it do your work.
I'm sure there are situations where this is acceptable though. Surely if a person feels that they are more than capable of doing the work, but find it to be a tedious waste of time, paying someone else to do it (assuming they have plenty of money of course) would be reasonable?
Its not like schools always get it right for each individual student. As long as its not being advertised to students who are too young to understand the importance of learning things for their future career (you didn't give a lot of details about the age bracket but it sounds like you're talking about university/college), I think its alright for people to make their own educated decision about these things. Its not like they can also pay someone else to write their exams, so it still holds these students to account in terms of earning their diploma/degree. Let alone all of the oral presentations and practical lab work students have no choice but to do themselves.
It might be disturbing but I find it informative. If people really do pay for this, then that should be an indicator that people aren't enjoying what they're learning and there needs to be more work done in helping students find a field that they have a true interest in. If I love physics I'm not going to ask anyone to do my work for me!
edit: Oh well I guess the last point isn't that accurate. There are probably tedious aspects to every job. But I think homework assignments should really be considered optional. If the student is smart enough to get perfect on the test, its really up to him/her. Thats mainly why I think its ok in the long run, as long as there are still exams, presentations, etc. to demonstrate each students' knowledge
There's probably a good chance that the teacher will be able to discern your level of writing from that of the student's in-class garbage essay. Plus, as someone already in acadamia, if you get caught helping students cheat, good luck getting a job elsewhere.
I'd look for easy money doing something a bit different. Tutor them instead
On January 10 2012 00:03 bonifaceviii wrote: The majority of people who use essay-writing services and homework services are foreign students whose level of English is too low.
On January 10 2012 00:09 peidongyang wrote: Yes, I have huge issues about this. First of all, they are graduating with an inflated mark. If the school has a bellcurve, not only are they getting a degree which you don't deserve, they are harming those who deserve higher marks by skewing the bellcurve.
More importantly, they have not learned the skills you needed to learn in school, and will completely screw over every employer over. Many people not graduating without the proper skills (and these people are usually lazy) leads to terrible productivity at work.
In terms of doing homework for money, its really sad that there are not enough jobs out there that so many people are resorting to doing these things. Even if they're very lucrative, it's just ethically wrong.
By your logic curving by a bell curve or any form of curving at all also provides people with degrees they don't deserve since curving differentiates within a single school, let alone across all Universities in the world.
The people who use this service don't give a shit about their education and there's really nothing you're goign to do to make them care, so if some people are willing to capatalize on this by selling their time to do some other people's homework, congrats to them.
The problem: Students are not proving that they are deserving of their degree. Solution 1: Former student earns degree, gets a job, and proves incompetent. Person is fired. Solution 2: Former student earns degree, gets a job, proves competent and continues on with their life.
Conclusion: It doesn't make a difference. You either prove that the homework wasn't really a true test of the knowledge required, or you get what you deserve for being lazy. From the view-point of universities and employers, this shouldn't be a concern.
On January 10 2012 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's probably a good chance that the teacher will be able to discern your level of writing from that of the student's in-class garbage essay. Plus, as someone already in acadamia, if you get caught helping students cheat, good luck getting a job elsewhere.
I'd look for easy money doing something a bit different. Tutor them instead
On January 10 2012 00:03 bonifaceviii wrote: The majority of people who use essay-writing services and homework services are foreign students whose level of English is too low.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this?
If you go to a University with a lot of international students you will see it. Most of them have a difficult time writing children stories for their ESL class, how else will they get a good grade on a comprehensive research paper?
I think it's fine for undergraduate. For masters and PhD, it is shady.
I am doing a phd in political science, and have written 3-4 page (doublespace) essays for about 10 people for about $15 per page last year, for a total of around $600 in 3 months. They were like engineering students who were forced by the university to take courses in humanities, reading stuff like homer, plato, hobbes etc. I was also offered a good deal of money to write 1-2 chapters of a masters thesis, and I declined.
I guess my moral of the story is: if it's something they have no fucking clue about and that they will never use what they learn in their lives, i'm fine with it.
On January 10 2012 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's probably a good chance that the teacher will be able to discern your level of writing from that of the student's in-class garbage essay. Plus, as someone already in acadamia, if you get caught helping students cheat, good luck getting a job elsewhere.
I'd look for easy money doing something a bit different. Tutor them instead
On January 10 2012 00:03 bonifaceviii wrote: The majority of people who use essay-writing services and homework services are foreign students whose level of English is too low.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this?
If you go to a University with a lot of international students you will see it. Most of them have a difficult time writing children stories for their ESL class, how else will they get a good grade on a comprehensive research paper?
Actually, from my experience I have noticed that ESL students have a larger vocabulary and a more grammatically correct forms of writing...
On January 10 2012 00:27 Derrida wrote: I think it's fine for undergraduate. For masters an PhD, it is shady.
There are people on this site willing to do masters and phd work for high prices. Now of course when you have to go defend your thesis...
That is something I would never do. The only justification I can think of for people using this service is because they had to take courses that do not help their major at all... But at PHD level, I would never risk this.
On January 10 2012 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's probably a good chance that the teacher will be able to discern your level of writing from that of the student's in-class garbage essay. Plus, as someone already in acadamia, if you get caught helping students cheat, good luck getting a job elsewhere.
I'd look for easy money doing something a bit different. Tutor them instead
On January 10 2012 00:03 bonifaceviii wrote: The majority of people who use essay-writing services and homework services are foreign students whose level of English is too low.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this?
If you go to a University with a lot of international students you will see it. Most of them have a difficult time writing children stories for their ESL class, how else will they get a good grade on a comprehensive research paper?
Oh I don't know... maybe by actually learning the language, getting a tutor, getting help from the teacher/ professor, reading their textbook, looking online for extra assistance, or using something like Rosetta Stone?
If they have the money to cheat and ask people to write papers for them (in which they don't learn anything from the experience), they have the money to commit to their education, in one way or the other.
And while I haven't talked to many international students, I've also heard that any lazy, rich, white kid who thinks he can get away with it will just as easily try something stupid like this... so I was wondering if there were actual statistics to back up these claims, or if it was just anecdotes.
On January 10 2012 00:14 Snettik wrote: Well if he doesn't learn the stuff he will fail the uncheatable tests. If he learns without writing esseys himself what is the problem?
wrong, there's no such thing as uncheatable tests.
i study mechanical engineering in university of toronto, and all sorts of cheating occurs; bringing in slips of notes unnoticed, storing formulas on unallowed calculators, and most prominently there are a group of persians in my class who, in every test and exam talk to eachother at the back of the class in persian. sometimes the TA, professors notice the persians talking but nothing ever happens to them.
anyhow, i have never had my homework done for me by anyone else, but im not overly pissed off about the issue. most people just want the certificate of graduation and the degree, and really, the education from a lot of courses can't be applied to a lot of jobs after graduation. doing the homework/assignments/essays/reports is not entirely useless however; people like me do it because it helps to practice time management and report writing which will be beneficial in the future.
On January 10 2012 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's probably a good chance that the teacher will be able to discern your level of writing from that of the student's in-class garbage essay. Plus, as someone already in acadamia, if you get caught helping students cheat, good luck getting a job elsewhere.
I'd look for easy money doing something a bit different. Tutor them instead
On January 10 2012 00:03 bonifaceviii wrote: The majority of people who use essay-writing services and homework services are foreign students whose level of English is too low.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this?
If you go to a University with a lot of international students you will see it. Most of them have a difficult time writing children stories for their ESL class, how else will they get a good grade on a comprehensive research paper?
i know 2 international students who suck at english, are too lazy to improve, and have friends in english majors to write their essays for them. i also know even more international students who do their own work, and while they have difficulties in verbal communication, they excel in writing (only using translation dictionaries for words they dont know). on second thought maybe my example is not very good since the english level here is pretty high
but anyhow, out of around 200 people in my class, there are probably only 50 who stayed more than 5 years in toronto, and i would say only 10were born here. thats a pretty international class. out of the international people i know, the people who want to STAY in canada work on their english. a LOT. i know quite a few people who know for sure that they will return to their home country (china, korea) after graduation, only still, only 2-3 of them dont try to improve their english.
On January 10 2012 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's probably a good chance that the teacher will be able to discern your level of writing from that of the student's in-class garbage essay. Plus, as someone already in acadamia, if you get caught helping students cheat, good luck getting a job elsewhere.
I'd look for easy money doing something a bit different. Tutor them instead
On January 10 2012 00:03 bonifaceviii wrote: The majority of people who use essay-writing services and homework services are foreign students whose level of English is too low.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this?
My University would be a prime source. My uni has a half to more than half Asian student body, and A LOT of them can barely speak the language (even though they are supposed to pass an English competency test, but bribes are effective study methods, not kidding either, the guys in charge got fired and I believe fined some amount last year for getting caught).
Just saying from experience it happens a lot more than you would imagine depending on the type of institution your at.
Its not worth it to pay other people to do work for you. First off with the most obvious one, if you get caught then it means instant expulsion and there goes your money. Other places will ask why you got expelled then you get screwed.
Second, you won't gain the experience necessary for outside the school situation that you COULD have gained.
eg (where x = subject) 1. you pass x on a assignment that someone wrote for you 2. you fail x on the exam portion but still pass the exam 3. workplace requires x skill and asks you to demonstrate your skill 4. your screwed
or
2. you fail x on the exam portion 3. brings you below compulsory requirement on exam (ie 40% is the minimal requirement on exam to pass course) 4. you lose money and time
Of course, when it comes to higher levels like masters and phd, you really don't deserve to be there at all if you have to cheat like this. Also, if you get caught get ready to lose your entire career and credit at that point.
I can see how this is wrong, but I think that if people can do this and they can still get a career afterwards and perform well in said career, then there is a major flaw with the education system they were using. It would literally mean that the education they were supposed to receive was a waste of money seeing as how they could've done well with without it. If that isn't the case and they were unable to get a job or do it well because they lacked the proper knowledge and skills, then (hopefully) they'll lose that job to somebody who is actually qualified (didn't cheat) and all is well.
Will, I had two friends who had to take a geometry class over a website, and they did not want to do it. I did it for them in a week, while it would normally take them a month or so. I dont see the big deal really.
On January 10 2012 01:01 Kybuar wrote: Will, I had two friends who had to take a geometry class over a website, and they did not want to do it. I did it for them in a week, while it would normally take them a month or so. I dont see the big deal really.
What if geometry was a prerequisite for a higher-level math class, and they needed that knowledge to perform well in the next course? They're screwed.
Even if it was a general education requirement and not for the students' major, colleges ask for those to be taken so that students become well-rounded individuals. Even if a class isn't necessarily practical in a future job, that doesn't exempt a person from taking it.
That's why some people might consider you excusing another student from their necessary education a "big deal". You're not a dean of that school. So whether you think it's okay or not think it's okay, at least recognize why people may have the other opinion.
On January 10 2012 01:01 kef wrote: I can see how this is wrong, but I think that if people can do this and they can still get a career afterwards and perform well in said career, then there is a major flaw with the education system they were using. It would literally mean that the education they were supposed to receive was a waste of money seeing as how they could've done well with without it. If that isn't the case and they were unable to get a job or do it well because they lacked the proper knowledge and skills, then (hopefully) they'll lose that job to somebody who is actually qualified (didn't cheat) and all is well.
you have to realize that the international people who cheat are more than often rich, have parents who are company executives, and are pretty much guarenteed a job after graduation. disregarding my university, i know 2-3 students who got their masters degree not because they need it for their job, but mostly because it looks good on their resume/profile. high qualifications on profiles, after all, helps to convince clients, investors, partners etc that this person is capable
On January 10 2012 01:18 AceTenRyu wrote: The person that does the homework for some1 else is just as bad as the person who didn't do his own homework. For a bit of money? wtf...
i disagree. the person that does the homework for someone else gets money, and also gets more practice.
but anyhow, i've indirectly done reports for someone many times. for group projects, we always get a slacker who does nothing, and when we force him to do work he gives us shit. does that mean we dont work on the stuff that hes supposed to do but didnt do? after all, its a group project and even if we have to carry the slacker up by doing his work, we cant risk our own grades.
I think this is absolutely disgusting and I don't distinguish between those who use this "service" and those who provide it. People are paying tuition fees and sometimes going into debt and working hard for their degrees and other people are abusing their financial privilege to screw the former over, or getting paid for screwing these people over. Education is supposed to be one of the channels of social mobility.
It does however cast a shadow on how relevant some of the things in university are. If someone can jump through flaming hoops and get awarded a degree with zero bearing on their job prospects and without getting fired, I wonder what is really wrong with the system. This doesn't absolve the moral culpability on both user and provider.
In any case, I hope the legal system finds a way to bring down absolute flaming hell on these people. Jail time would not be too harsh.
On January 10 2012 01:01 kef wrote: I can see how this is wrong, but I think that if people can do this and they can still get a career afterwards and perform well in said career, then there is a major flaw with the education system they were using. It would literally mean that the education they were supposed to receive was a waste of money seeing as how they could've done well with without it. If that isn't the case and they were unable to get a job or do it well because they lacked the proper knowledge and skills, then (hopefully) they'll lose that job to somebody who is actually qualified (didn't cheat) and all is well.
Obtaining a career is only one of multiple reasons why you get an education. My career is in math education, and I don't need any knowledge that my history classes provided me (to teach math), but that doesn't justify cheating (or not taking those classes).
Another reason why you get an education is to become a functioning and well-rounded member of society. That's why colleges have general education requirements. Another reason is to give you options- that's especially why you take multiple academic subjects at primary and secondary levels. It gives you a taste of everything, and the experiences can help you make your future choices. But it's wrong to say that since you don't directly use a course in your job, you never need the knowledge or could have cheated in it. It's useful for other things.
Well, I understand people who provide their services at these sites. Most of them are probably PhD students living at a very low scholarship while working their asses off on producing original research. It is not surprising that they use that opportunity to earn easy money.
These services won't disappear as long as there are monetary incentives for the providers and as long as there is demand for them. If PhD students were paid more they wouldn't spend time doing it. Believe me, they are busy enough so they do it only to repair their budget.
I would definitely say that there are pros and cons to this, even if it is undeniably unethical. The greatest fear I have is that people who start using this services early in their education will become dependent on them and will be less careful about using them in their last year. If I were someone who didn't have english as a native language, but went to a foreign school for math then I would see why I would want to use this to pass the humanities courses and get out. If an ESL (English as a second language) used this to pass english, then there's a problem. The trick is figuring out whether the gray area between is acceptable or not. I don't like the idea of paying someone to do your research for example.
I dont think that this is a big problem, there are probably not that many students that would actully pay someone to get their homeworks done. This is of course a very unfair way of going through school compared to the ones that actually fight and study! But someone that does this is stupid and will be stupid no matter how good his homework's are. And a good teacher should be able to see the lack of performance and commitment by the student during class.
On January 10 2012 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's probably a good chance that the teacher will be able to discern your level of writing from that of the student's in-class garbage essay. Plus, as someone already in acadamia, if you get caught helping students cheat, good luck getting a job elsewhere.
I'd look for easy money doing something a bit different. Tutor them instead
On January 10 2012 00:03 bonifaceviii wrote: The majority of people who use essay-writing services and homework services are foreign students whose level of English is too low.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this?
If you go to a University with a lot of international students you will see it. Most of them have a difficult time writing children stories for their ESL class, how else will they get a good grade on a comprehensive research paper?
Oh I don't know... maybe by actually learning the language, getting a tutor, getting help from the teacher/ professor, reading their textbook, looking online for extra assistance, or using something like Rosetta Stone?
If they have the money to cheat and ask people to write papers for them (in which they don't learn anything from the experience), they have the money to commit to their education, in one way or the other.
And while I haven't talked to many international students, I've also heard that any lazy, rich, white kid who thinks he can get away with it will just as easily try something stupid like this... so I was wondering if there were actual statistics to back up these claims, or if it was just anecdotes.
Learning a language isn't as easy as you think. Maybe some people can learn English using the ways you suggested, but for a lot of international students they've worked their ass off to just get to America and will do whatever they can to stay - their English might not be top notch yet, because they just arrived here to study and all they have so far is whatever English they learned in their home country, which may not be enough.
On January 10 2012 01:01 Kybuar wrote: Will, I had two friends who had to take a geometry class over a website, and they did not want to do it. I did it for them in a week, while it would normally take them a month or so. I dont see the big deal really.
What if geometry was a prerequisite for a higher-level math class, and they needed that knowledge to perform well in the next course? They're screwed.
Even if it was a general education requirement and not for the students' major, colleges ask for those to be taken so that students become well-rounded individuals. Even if a class isn't necessarily practical in a future job, that doesn't exempt a person from taking it.
That's why some people might consider you excusing another student from their necessary education a "big deal". You're not a dean of that school. So whether you think it's okay or not think it's okay, at least recognize why people may have the other opinion.
What if they didn't need that knowledge for a higher level math class? If you're studying to become something like a psychologist or something, you don't really need that geometry class. It might be extremely hard for some people, and if they did it themselves, it would leave a dent on their GPA for something that doesn't really matter to them. If they devote a lot of time to trying to do well in that class, it takes out time from studying the things that are actually relevant to their future. It's great to be well-rounded, but most people aren't well-rounded. How long do you think an engineering major is going to retain the philosophy that he doesn't care about that he learned from a course he was forced to take?
On January 10 2012 01:37 Lebesgue wrote: Well, I understand people who provide their services at these sites. Most of them are probably PhD students living at a very low scholarship while working their asses off on producing original research. It is not surprising that they use that opportunity to earn easy money.
These services won't disappear as long as there are monetary incentives for the providers and as long as there is demand for them. If PhD students were paid more they wouldn't spend time doing it. Believe me, they are busy enough so they do it only to repair their budget.
The excuse of being poor only goes so far though. IMO, anyone who gets caught doing this should be booted right off the PhD program, since they apparently don't understand academic ethics. It's a separate question as to why the PhD students are so poor that they have to do this, and it should also be addressed.
This is one of the many reasons that I've always felt grades should be 100% determined by TESTS. Those actually determine what you LEARNED, not how much mindless spam work you put in. Are we trying to actually educate kids, or to make them little worker bees for society?
Part of this belief of mine is a selfish desire, because in school I always did very well in the classes based on tests, and poorly in the classes based on how many stupid assignments you could turn in.
On January 10 2012 01:46 liberal wrote: This is one of the many reasons that I've always felt grades should be 100% determined by TESTS. Those actually determine what you LEARNED, not how much mindless spam work you put in. Are we trying to actually educate kids, or to make them little worker bees for society?
Part of this belief of mine is a selfish desire, because in school I always did very well in the classes based on tests, and poorly in the classes based on how many stupid assignments you could turn in.
The problem with test based assessment is that it's difficult to be creative about assessments. For quite a few things, even open book tests don't capture the skills well enough. There are a lot of things that a term paper can tell you about what a person has learned that a test cannot.
Students are the only part of society not abiding by the first rule of economics: They're the only group trying to get as less as possible for their money 0_0
On January 10 2012 01:54 Timestreamer wrote: Interesting.
I just realized something.
Students are the only part of society not abiding by the first rule of economics: They're the only group trying to get as less as possible for their money 0_0
Or maybe they realize that (for them) the main value of going through university isn't learning new things. It's the degree and for some the "experience".
On January 10 2012 01:46 liberal wrote: This is one of the many reasons that I've always felt grades should be 100% determined by TESTS. Those actually determine what you LEARNED, not how much mindless spam work you put in. Are we trying to actually educate kids, or to make them little worker bees for society?
Part of this belief of mine is a selfish desire, because in school I always did very well in the classes based on tests, and poorly in the classes based on how many stupid assignments you could turn in.
Tests are cheatable too. Programmable calculators and a simple picture to display an erased screen overcome this for any math/science major (though my Vector Calculus and Differential Equations class don't allow anything beyond TI-30 so they kind of throw that ability out the window). I do agree that homework is weighted too much though. My dynamics teacher actually gave up this semester on homework, he just assigns practice problems for us and posts the solutions and steps online (probably because we all admitted to using Cramster to complete our Statics homework...spending 5 hours working out the equilibrium of a truss is not fun).
I do NOT condone cheating, but I also do not view homework as something you can cheat on. If you learn nothing from class or homework, well you fail the course. If you already understand the material from previous classes or even from the lecture and feel comfortable that you could pass the test, I don't see the point in spending time on the homework (though I did notice, if I mastered the homework, it almost took longer to use Cramster to find an answer unless the problem was super tedious).
The moral question of the situation is pretty meh as far as I'm concerned. The more important issue is examining why people are increasingly looking to having someone else write their papers. The real answer is that a large portion of classwork and papers are useless busy-work.
I've already finished my BS and most of my MS and I can say that of all the papers I ever wrote for college, very few were actually worth doing. One of my first MS courses had a small ~3 page paper where I ended up writing about solid-state drives. Who cares? I learn nothing relevant from doing this. Meanwhile, I had one BS course where every assignment was some form of coding project, which is the class I learned the most in and enjoyed the most.
Stop assigning so many stupid/useless papers and maybe students will actually spend the time to do them.
I wrote all my own papers, but as an engineering major, the longest paper I had to write was maybe three pages? And it took me maybe twenty minutes? I don't understand why people would pay for something so easy. If you aren't going for a major that requires a lot of writing, you can realistically get away with Wikipedia and go to the links of Wikipedia's sources and write your paper. It probably takes more time to find a reliable source to write a paper, pay for the paper, and arrange contact with the person doing it.
Grading rubrics vary so much from class to class that I've had to accept that there is no such thing as cheating in school as far as it affects your ability to learn the material. I have had many classes where you were actually encouraged to bring in grad students or professionals and any books you want to help on the tests, but group testing is more common than not in my experience anyway.
So the only way it is 'cheating' is that you have an advantage other people don't have, well, that's always going to be the case anyway, best to get used to it and learn how to be successful than complain about it not being fair.
On January 10 2012 01:46 liberal wrote: This is one of the many reasons that I've always felt grades should be 100% determined by TESTS. Those actually determine what you LEARNED, not how much mindless spam work you put in. Are we trying to actually educate kids, or to make them little worker bees for society?
Part of this belief of mine is a selfish desire, because in school I always did very well in the classes based on tests, and poorly in the classes based on how many stupid assignments you could turn in.
Tests are cheatable too. Programmable calculators and a simple picture to display an erased screen overcome this for any math/science major (though my Vector Calculus and Differential Equations class don't allow anything beyond TI-30 so they kind of throw that ability out the window). I do agree that homework is weighted too much though. My dynamics teacher actually gave up this semester on homework, he just assigns practice problems for us and posts the solutions and steps online (probably because we all admitted to using Cramster to complete our Statics homework...spending 5 hours working out the equilibrium of a truss is not fun).
I do NOT condone cheating, but I also do not view homework as something you can cheat on. If you learn nothing from class or homework, well you fail the course. If you already understand the material from previous classes or even from the lecture and feel comfortable that you could pass the test, I don't see the point in spending time on the homework (though I did notice, if I mastered the homework, it almost took longer to use Cramster to find an answer unless the problem was super tedious).
Some people also just dont thrive in test taking conditions as well as others, while they may be very diligent and knowledgeable in the actual course material. I can totally see the problem with there being to much weight on homework, but as a student I can also share experiences wherein its just not your day to take a test. Didn't catch enough sleep, dog died the night before, you feel sick, whatever you know? Definitively not the best day to decide 80% of your final grade or whatever.
I would be interested to find out whether the proprietor of this unethical, but likely profitable web-site was, him or herself, a cheater.
In high school, I was involved with a highly organized cheating ring for a statistics class. At the time, we justified it by the fact that the teacher was incompetent (had no mastery of the material herself), and the assignments were overly long. We cheated on the homework and found ways to steal the tests. There was no question then or now that the cheating was wrong, but I do not feel guilty, really -- I tell the story in detail sometimes, because we went to some crazy lengths to steal those tests -- certainly spent more time scheming and planning, than it would have taken to do the homework.
That said, I did not cheat in college or post-grad, and I got really angry with those that did, especially in curve classes. Cheating hurts the cheater and everyone competing with the cheater. In post-grad, a few people got expelled for cheating. I remember thinking, "Good, get rid of that garbage." Then, "Oh shit, I have really changed from high school -- I hate high school me."
On January 10 2012 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's probably a good chance that the teacher will be able to discern your level of writing from that of the student's in-class garbage essay. Plus, as someone already in acadamia, if you get caught helping students cheat, good luck getting a job elsewhere.
I'd look for easy money doing something a bit different. Tutor them instead
On January 10 2012 00:03 bonifaceviii wrote: The majority of people who use essay-writing services and homework services are foreign students whose level of English is too low.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this?
If you go to a University with a lot of international students you will see it. Most of them have a difficult time writing children stories for their ESL class, how else will they get a good grade on a comprehensive research paper?
Oh I don't know... maybe by actually learning the language, getting a tutor, getting help from the teacher/ professor, reading their textbook, looking online for extra assistance, or using something like Rosetta Stone?
If they have the money to cheat and ask people to write papers for them (in which they don't learn anything from the experience), they have the money to commit to their education, in one way or the other.
And while I haven't talked to many international students, I've also heard that any lazy, rich, white kid who thinks he can get away with it will just as easily try something stupid like this... so I was wondering if there were actual statistics to back up these claims, or if it was just anecdotes.
Learning a language isn't as easy as you think. Maybe some people can learn English using the ways you suggested, but for a lot of international students they've worked their ass off to just get to America and will do whatever they can to stay - their English might not be top notch yet, because they just arrived here to study and all they have so far is whatever English they learned in their home country, which may not be enough.
On January 10 2012 01:01 Kybuar wrote: Will, I had two friends who had to take a geometry class over a website, and they did not want to do it. I did it for them in a week, while it would normally take them a month or so. I dont see the big deal really.
What if geometry was a prerequisite for a higher-level math class, and they needed that knowledge to perform well in the next course? They're screwed.
Even if it was a general education requirement and not for the students' major, colleges ask for those to be taken so that students become well-rounded individuals. Even if a class isn't necessarily practical in a future job, that doesn't exempt a person from taking it.
That's why some people might consider you excusing another student from their necessary education a "big deal". You're not a dean of that school. So whether you think it's okay or not think it's okay, at least recognize why people may have the other opinion.
What if they didn't need that knowledge for a higher level math class? If you're studying to become something like a psychologist or something, you don't really need that geometry class. It might be extremely hard for some people, and if they did it themselves, it would leave a dent on their GPA for something that doesn't really matter to them. If they devote a lot of time to trying to do well in that class, it takes out time from studying the things that are actually relevant to their future. It's great to be well-rounded, but most people aren't well-rounded. How long do you think an engineering major is going to retain the philosophy that he doesn't care about that he learned from a course he was forced to take?
1. If their current English isn't enough, then they go learn English using the multitude of suggestions I gave (or anyone with common sense could give). It's not like they're being asked to write PhD-level English papers. They're going to be placed into some sort of basic skills English course if they don't know much English. And then they actually learn! To advocate someone else writing a whole paper for them (rather than getting a tutor or any other guide) not only stops them from *ever* learning more English, but the professor doesn't even know if the international student even did the research required for the paper (whether it's science or math or anything else).
2. I already explained that not all courses are pre-requisites, and exactly gave reasons why other courses you're taking shouldn't be cheated in anyway.
On January 10 2012 00:14 Snettik wrote: Well if he doesn't learn the stuff he will fail the uncheatable tests. If he learns without writing esseys himself what is the problem?
THIS^^ I Totally agree. (not that I have paid for getting my homework done)
On January 10 2012 00:14 Snettik wrote: Well if he doesn't learn the stuff he will fail the uncheatable tests. If he learns without writing esseys himself what is the problem?
THIS^^ I Totally agree. (not that I have paid for getting my homework done)
+ paying is better than beating up the nerd to do your homework i guess
First of all most general colleges/universities make you take tons of dumb classes you don't want to do/learn.
Secondly, people with money have always been able to obtain degrees with relatively little effort compared to their peers if desired, with enough money you can obtain anything right?
finally, most homework assignments don't really teach you anything. I mean, they give you a chance to prove you know something, but if you feel like you know it anyway why bother jumping through the hoop if you don't have to?
just playing devil's advocate, I probably wouldn't use this service myself
shit i bet over the course of my high school career i could have made a few grand from all my friends who cheated off of me. pretty much in my accounting class half of the class would copy off of my test (would pass mine to my friend, he would copy, then i'd turn mine in and everyone would copy off of his).
ah high school i miss you so much, so easy, barely went and got all A's. haha
Paying someone to do your thesis from scratch with no input from yourself = wrong without a doubt.
Paying someone to write your children's story assignment in ESL class so you can concentrate on your graduate level math/physics/economics/other science paper that requires little English aside from a few short paragraphs that can be fixed by your roommate proofreading it = possibly unfair to all the hard working domestic students that are paying a fraction of what you are to do a degree you already did before in your home country but got rejected here cause your home country isn't on friendly terms with this country.
As a german Oberstufen pupil I think its fine, cuz here homework counts about ~20% for the final grade but if you dont actually understand what stands in your homework and you gotta present or write a test you are fucked. And if you really understnad it then you dont have to do it cuz you already learned what had to be learned so you jsut saved some time, which can be much more prescious then a bit of money. So if you dont understand the topic your homework is about, you actually dont have to do it, but if you dont you have to so you learn what you ahve to learn.
I was just on that site, most people seem to be doing it just to pass a class they have no interest in. Not my cup of tea, but whatever floats their boats. I noticed one guy who wanted to cheat on a paper exam, he said he had a pen that records and sends information as it is written... He wanted someone to get this information through e-mail and then finish the exam and call him and tell him what to write... People like that seem to put more effort into cheating than just passing the class, I don't like that at all. If you get stuck in a class that is completely out of left field and you do not need it, then I kind of understand wanting to pay others to take the class for you... Still don't entirely approve of it though.
Well its a way to make money off of rich spoiled students,its legit,its imoral in theory but in capitalism you don't have morals so its fine.I don't worry about the people that pay for homework doing big on the future because in certain situations you can't just buy your way out and you probably won't have mommy and daddy money anymore.
I totally agree with the OP on this one, however if it brings you any comfort those people will reap what they are currently sowing. I know very few businesses who tolerate lazy incompetent employees, which is what they are going to become. So, the individuals who use these services might for a bit get ahead, but in the end they are really just damaging their own value.
Ahahaha, so much "who cares they're going to suffer in the long run (tests/exams/jobs) later" in this thread, such wishful thinking.
On January 10 2012 00:25 Mr Showtime wrote: The problem: Students are not proving that they are deserving of their degree. Solution 1: Former student earns degree, gets a job, and proves incompetent. Person is fired. Solution 2: Former student earns degree, gets a job, proves competent and continues on with their life.
Conclusion: It doesn't make a difference. You either prove that the homework wasn't really a true test of the knowledge required, or you get what you deserve for being lazy. From the view-point of universities and employers, this shouldn't be a concern.
Most likely Solution 2.
First of all, unless you're in a very specific and specialized field (i.e., nanotechnology) which I doubt most of these students are in (they are using essay/assignment services after all), jobs utilize very little of the stuff you learn in university, I'd put the percentage at 5% from personal experience. For most business, social sciences, management, etc. jobs (jobs without the need for very specific technical knowledge), once you've landed a job it's very difficult to get fired for incompetence because these jobs don't exactly require expert-level knowledge or training on the levels of brain surgeons or chemists.
Most of the job knowledge comes from on-the-job training and learning, so conservatively, I'd say 95% of the times, you're in for a long time as long as you're in. I've had jobs TOTALLY unrelated to my studies (i.e., working as a data miner and database builder for a real estate company while my major in economics) that I loved and excelled at and vice versa.
These well-off kids that can afford to pay are getting ahead in life with money; they are NOT going to suffer from it as a result lol.
Hey OP, do you have a link to the original article? I'd like to get some more information. Like you, I'm in academia and I'm always interested in what my students might be up to.
For anyone asking for sources about this homework cheating world, I present to you an article written by an individual buried deep into the roots of this: The Shadow Scholar.
The article covers many interesting aspects of how the system actually works, who are the clients and what not. At the same time it is interesting to note that his perspective is pretty one-sided to think that he could do everything - notice that in all the fields he cheated, none involves real math. If you're writing about math, there's no bullshit you can talk about, you have to exactly know what you're doing to be able to write a paper on it. This extends to most application of maths including engineering and computer science.
From my personal point of view, I find that we have gone too far in valuing that piece of paper you get upon graduation above all else when applying for a job. These people then either cry about can't finding jobs (because they're incapable of trying having never done so in their life), or takes up valuable space and do nothing everyday and get paid for it.
This seems to me almost the same as someone high ranked on SC2 taking money for leveling up an account: shame on the person who gave his money for it than it is on the person who sells the service.
some go to school to learn, some go to school for degree/cert.
i guess it depends on field? if you're majoring in costume design and need to write an essay on califiornia history, i guess it doesn't hurt to have someone do it?
on a related note: i knew a quite a few people that "cheated" this way. one had someone else attend all classes for him as him while he was on vacation. i too "tutored" a friend...instead of helping with english translation, i just did the hw for the person XD (it was easier for me and less time consuming)
On January 10 2012 00:11 Orcasgt24 wrote: Seeing as how test make up the majority of your final mark in most classes having someone do your homework for you is just a waste of money.
High marks on homework and projects/essays + low test score does = fail usally
its like people who get paid to write masters thesis's, its really just about your moral standpoint. If you want to pay thousands to get your thesis written by all means go ahead, but then why did you pay all that money for school if you didnt learn anything from it enough to write your thesis or final papers. etc.
Eh, from what I've seen in my 4 years at university, homework is fairly useless, just a timesink. I don't think an intelligent person loses anything from not doing the homework himself. Really, most of the time I copied my friends stuff loosly, and then used the answer key/solutions the teacher gives to actually learn from the assignments.
Sounds interesting. Could you by chance share this certain site? I'd be interested in doing extra homework for money while in school :D As for my morals, I guess it's bad in the sense that the one getting the help isn't truly learning much (presumably), but making money is making money, and it isn't illegal, so I'd be able to get over it
On January 10 2012 03:56 Ghostcom wrote: This is 100% wrong and there is zero excuse for participating in this for neither the student nor the helper!
Huh? That's your opinion and your morals. It's only "100%" wrong in a concrete sense if it's illegal or something, yes? What if I wanted to make extra money doing something I already do, as the 'helper'? It's 100% wrong in your eyes, but in the helper's eyes maybe it's just a source of income, and maybe the helper does not care one bit about the value the other guy is or isn't getting from his education? If someone's paying you to do something, it's not your job to judge them on it unless it's totally illegal in which case you're both being judged by the law.
I remember a thread here that was about this very subject where the OP actually worked for one of these sites and claimed to have done masters level work for people (including writing thesis). I remember being really angry at the time since I know all the work it takes for masters or PhD level work since I am doing them myself. So lame that people can just pay to have it done.
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: It's only "100%" wrong in a concrete sense if it's illegal or something, yes?
It is 'illegal' in the sense that it's blatantly against the rules of most schools and would get you kicked out. We accept a lot of sub-state authorities for defining rules - it's not illegal to hack in SC2 competitions, but we sure as hell are against that too.
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: It's only "100%" wrong in a concrete sense if it's illegal or something, yes?
It is 'illegal' in the sense that it's blatantly against the rules of most schools and would get you kicked out. We accept a lot of sub-state authorities for defining rules - it's not illegal to hack in SC2 competitions, but we sure as hell are against that too.
Well I meant illegal in terms of the school's board, not the actual government...bad wording I guess. But hmm I may be confused about the particulars of this website (OP did not actually include the site so I did a google search and found something that allows you to submit drafts for hardcore, paid revision -- interests me), but isn't it just helping people generate good papers? I would assume they'd send you a draft, and then you'd make it suitable for submission or something. Seems that there's no clear distinction between paying someone to do this or getting someone to do this as a friend/colleague. I guess I'm just not seeing why money being involved is a bad thing
edit: If you're writing an entire paper completely from scratch, yes, this would be blatantly against the rules, I agree.
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: It's only "100%" wrong in a concrete sense if it's illegal or something, yes?
It is 'illegal' in the sense that it's blatantly against the rules of most schools and would get you kicked out. We accept a lot of sub-state authorities for defining rules - it's not illegal to hack in SC2 competitions, but we sure as hell are against that too.
Of course it's illegal to do that; what are you smoking?
It's against the rules of the tournament. It is, by definition, illegal.
College undergrad here. I've been writing essays for others for the past two years.
I get paid per assignment. I used to work for a website that cut take a cut out of each paper, but have since turned to working for myself. I have a small website, but mainly get clients from word of mouth.
Pay varies, but is very good for a college student. If you could put an $/hour, it would probably be around $30-40. I charge per page, as well as extra time for reading and research. I also proofread and rewrite papers. Unlike many essay writers, I do not use Wikipedia, but have access to a large college database and library. My citations and bibliographies are perfect. I usually work around 10-20 hours a week, depending on how busy I am. I only write A-quality essays because they pay the best.
Personally, I don't see the ethical dilemma. These people will suffer later in life, so why not make some money off this lucrative field.
I might get some hate for this, but to a poor college kid, a job is a job, and this is something I'm quite good at.
It has been an ongoing problem for over 14 years. ._.
On January 10 2012 05:16 ArvickHero wrote: I thought colleges mostly circumvented this kind of thing by putting most of the grade weight on tests and stuff you can't get other ppl to do for you
Some profs found ways around such things and universities do have a ridiculous archives of student work. Lots of students get caught for plagarism every year; however, it isn't close to enough.
Sorry but that's how capitalism rolls xD The more money you have, the more advantages that are open to you. People work to make the most money. That's how capitalism is, isn't it? Not saying I like it that way. Heck, I HATE these cons of capitalism, it sickens me. But my view is that there is so much cheating, and the idea of capitalism is every man for himself, that it is justified to go through "unethical" methods to give yourself as much help as possible. There will always be cheating, so even if everyone but 1 person cheats, that 1 person is getting an unfair advantage. The idea of I forget what the term in econ is but... basically different options will "balance out", making none of them more favorable than the others. Let's talk about cheating. If 50% of people cheat, then the schools and such should do more about it to decrease the incentive of cheating. Cheaters already have to decide between using their time actually learning how to study better vs learning how to cheat, both of which have short run and long run benefits. Eventually the decision between cheating and not cheating shouldn't be too huge, but I don't think it's there yet. So yes there should be more done about this.
Also, for those teachers who say that cheating doesn't help in the long run, how it won't work in real life, etc. etc. It most certainly does. If cheating in school doesn't count as cheating in real life, then what is school? An education system that's also easily exploited? They are pretty much admitting that school isn't legit, in which case, again, there should be improvements/reforms. I agree I would like to see the American education system get reformed. I have had many bad experiences and many things I've been very disappointed about... such as the lack of preparation for college, let alone college planning. Hell, my school didn't even talk about the ACT/SAT. You had to figure that out yourself or hope your parents are taking care of you well.
On January 10 2012 05:21 Gotmog wrote: Thats why these home assignments are bad imo... In eu (i guess most of eu...) you don't have that.
In med school in my country, homework is only about 6/100 of your final grade. Depending on subject, some a bit more, some a bit less.
I don't think it's fair to characterize by country (or area). In many schools and courses in America, tests count for the vast majority of the grade, whereas papers or homework don't count for much, as well. It often depends on the particular teacher/ professor or subject.
Who cares? The majority of your grade is tests anyway, if you don't know how to do the work you'll fail the test.
Sure some classes do rely heavily on essays for grades, but those are english, history and ________ studies classes. If you go into the workplace as an English major who has written one less paper about Rosa Parks, dead philosophers or a novel that was intended to actually be enjoyed I don't think it will be the downfall of humanity.
On January 10 2012 05:25 RoosterSamurai wrote: If you want to graduate from college and be incompetent in your field because you wanted to be lazy, then by all means....
That's a logical fallacy tho, isn't it? What if I pay someone to do my art homework in order to pass the class, then go on to become a craniofacial plastic surgeon?
This example is exaggerated, but I thought you might want to know why what you said doesn't make sense
On January 10 2012 05:25 RoosterSamurai wrote: If you want to graduate from college and be incompetent in your field because you wanted to be lazy, then by all means....
That's a logical fallacy tho, isn't it? What if I pay someone to do my art homework in order to pass the class, then go on to become a craniofacial plastic surgeon?
This example is exaggerated, but I thought you might want to know why what you said doesn't make sense
You're also committing a fallacy. You're assuming that someone only does this for 1 or 2 papers, whereas the big concern in this thread (If you read it, you'd know this) is that people just do this for all of their papers. Sure, if you're studying medicine and you pay someone to write your art history essay, who cares? But if you're studying medicine and you pay someone to write all your papers, then the only thing likely in your future is a malpractice suit...
Well since, in general, homework is for practice, I don't mind if people use this service. My feeling is that most homework shouldn't be required, but instead optional. The only thing you should get for doing homework is a high-five, you shouldn't be graded for practicing.
If you ever need to do their math homework and they also want to see your steps, you might as well just punch in their data into matlab/mathematica/maple. It can do a lot of things. But maybe the easy stuff you won't need bother with it.
On January 10 2012 05:25 RoosterSamurai wrote: If you want to graduate from college and be incompetent in your field because you wanted to be lazy, then by all means....
That's a logical fallacy tho, isn't it? What if I pay someone to do my art homework in order to pass the class, then go on to become a craniofacial plastic surgeon?
This example is exaggerated, but I thought you might want to know why what you said doesn't make sense
You're also committing a fallacy. You're assuming that someone only does this for 1 or 2 papers, whereas the big concern in this thread (If you read it, you'd know this) is that people just do this for all of their papers. Sure, if you're studying medicine and you pay someone to write your art history essay, who cares? But if you're studying medicine and you pay someone to write all your papers, then the only thing likely in your future is a malpractice suit...
No no, I'm not assuming anything. I'm just pointing out the exception to your statement that invalidates it. In other words, for your statement to stand, you need to clarify, which you've done now due to my comment.
On January 10 2012 05:33 nalgene wrote: If you ever need to do their math homework and they also want to see your steps, you might as well just punch in their data into matlab/mathematica/maple. It can do a lot of things. But maybe the easy stuff you won't need bother with it.
That doesn't always work. In the calculus class I recently took, the tests were, literally, 75% of the grade, and they were all on paper in proctored rooms. You were allowed to have 1 sheet (one sided) of handwritten notes, and you were only allowed to use a TI85 or less.
On January 10 2012 05:25 RoosterSamurai wrote: If you want to graduate from college and be incompetent in your field because you wanted to be lazy, then by all means....
That's a logical fallacy tho, isn't it? What if I pay someone to do my art homework in order to pass the class, then go on to become a craniofacial plastic surgeon?
This example is exaggerated, but I thought you might want to know why what you said doesn't make sense
You're also committing a fallacy. You're assuming that someone only does this for 1 or 2 papers, whereas the big concern in this thread (If you read it, you'd know this) is that people just do this for all of their papers. Sure, if you're studying medicine and you pay someone to write your art history essay, who cares? But if you're studying medicine and you pay someone to write all your papers, then the only thing likely in your future is a malpractice suit...
No no, I'm not assuming anything. I'm just pointing out the exception to your statement that invalidates it. In other words, for your statement to stand, you need to clarify, which you've done now due to my comment.
On January 10 2012 05:25 RoosterSamurai wrote: If you want to graduate from college and be incompetent in your field because you wanted to be lazy, then by all means....
That's a logical fallacy tho, isn't it? What if I pay someone to do my art homework in order to pass the class, then go on to become a craniofacial plastic surgeon?
This example is exaggerated, but I thought you might want to know why what you said doesn't make sense
You're also committing a fallacy. You're assuming that someone only does this for 1 or 2 papers, whereas the big concern in this thread (If you read it, you'd know this) is that people just do this for all of their papers. Sure, if you're studying medicine and you pay someone to write your art history essay, who cares? But if you're studying medicine and you pay someone to write all your papers, then the only thing likely in your future is a malpractice suit...
No no, I'm not assuming anything. I'm just pointing out the exception to your statement that invalidates it. In other words, for your statement to stand, you need to clarify, which you've done now due to my comment.
So then, in essence, we agree.
Now that you've clarified, I agree with your modified statement. Getting back on topic, that is a good point. If you do this for EVERYTHING, it probably says something about your character in general -- that you can't be bothered to commit yourself to your own work, which in and of itself is sorta disturbing.
I've had a situation last year where a lot of the students in my CS class were blatently copying each others answers on an assessed class test for programming. We had weekly assessed tests for it, and they were cheating every week. It was definitely disheartening watch all of your hard work just go to waste because so many people were cheating to get grades of the same level of mine.
Needless to say, a lot of people failed that class when it came to the exam.
It's incredibly wrong to do other peoples homework for money. It harms universities grading, and it allows people to get degrees or earn easy marks towards degrees that clearly don't deserve it.
It angers me when people cheat on exams or in homework or coursework. It's just stupid.
On January 10 2012 05:33 nalgene wrote: If you ever need to do their math homework and they also want to see your steps, you might as well just punch in their data into matlab/mathematica/maple. It can do a lot of things. But maybe the easy stuff you won't need bother with it.
That doesn't always work. In the calculus class I recently took, the tests were, literally, 75% of the grade, and they were all on paper in proctored rooms. You were allowed to have 1 sheet (one sided) of handwritten notes, and you were only allowed to use a TI85 or less.
That is slightly different since that's a test. With that amount maybe they might actually be encouraged to do their own homework then.
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: It's only "100%" wrong in a concrete sense if it's illegal or something, yes?
It is 'illegal' in the sense that it's blatantly against the rules of most schools and would get you kicked out. We accept a lot of sub-state authorities for defining rules - it's not illegal to hack in SC2 competitions, but we sure as hell are against that too.
Of course it's illegal to do that; what are you smoking?
It's against the rules of the tournament. It is, by definition, illegal.
There is no law against it, but it is against the rules. I was comparing it to the definition here:
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: Well I meant illegal in terms of the school's board, not the actual government...bad wording I guess.
Where he suggests that as there is no law against getting people to do your papers. This is technically true, but it is 'illegal' in a sense there are non-government rules against it (as in the case of cheating in a tournament).
My point is that just because something does not have a national law against it, does not mean it is therefore a moral or acceptable action, given that there are other authorities such an act may fall under.
I don't recall doing any Math or Physics homework ever because it was just a waste of time, I was never going to go into any physics or math career. Copied all of it. I turned out pretty well.
i wish some of my TAs would cheat on their classes that they're teaching so i could just have someone who could speak english teaching me.. and my english mixed with korean understanding is pretty damn good from watching BW, i shudder to think about an average domestic student
in all seriousness, cheating is pretty rampant.. i took my french professor out to dinner (she is 23 fresh of the boat) and i got an A in a 5 credit class, i was pretty pleased with myself to be honest
Considering that the current educational system is already tailored to the wealthy, this is an inevitable outcome.
I work at a hospital and the number of useless but wealthy kids that come out of the university system "prepared for the rigors of health-care" is staggering.
Listen I have no real problem if somoene uses it 1 time... maybe they went to a party and didnt have enough time to do 1 paper. Its the people that abuse it and use it every time I would have a problem with. I agree on some points you made in the OP . Its a damn shame that people dont want to put the hard work it takes to be successful in life. If you do go to college and you are trying to find your calling , it should really be your calling it should be something you enjoy doing, it should be something that you want to write a paper on. It shouldnt be a burden on you, enough to go and have someone else right your wrongs. Just my opinion.. but still I think the teachers and educators of this world are so underpaid , now they think they are teaching things the rigth way because half of there class gets A+ on there homework all because of a website.
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: It's only "100%" wrong in a concrete sense if it's illegal or something, yes?
It is 'illegal' in the sense that it's blatantly against the rules of most schools and would get you kicked out. We accept a lot of sub-state authorities for defining rules - it's not illegal to hack in SC2 competitions, but we sure as hell are against that too.
Of course it's illegal to do that; what are you smoking?
It's against the rules of the tournament. It is, by definition, illegal.
There is no law against it, but it is against the rules. I was comparing it to the definition here:
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: Well I meant illegal in terms of the school's board, not the actual government...bad wording I guess.
Where he suggests that as there is no law against getting people to do your papers. This is technically true, but it is 'illegal' in a sense there are non-government rules against it (as in the case of cheating in a tournament).
My point is that just because something does not have a national law against it, does not mean it is therefore a moral or acceptable action, given that there are other authorities such an act may fall under.
Fair point. But what if the person involved does not hold the same moral values for his own reasons? What if he value avoiding cheating, but is compelled to overcome this moral impediment due to financial necessity? I don't know, those are just some ideas, not to disagree or anything
It only matters if you are graduating in medicine, engineering or something like that, otherwise univeristy is just a big children day care center and a scam for the most part.
Paying someone to do your homework is pathetic and wrong.
Accepting payment to do other people's hw is very wrong and should be unlawful, if it already isn't.
I would much rather have my students cheat in some way on their homework than pay someone to do it. At least cheating requires some sort of skill. btw, I would never encourage cheating, although it might sound like I am. I'm just saying which one is the less bad.
In Denmark when you switch from High School (gymnasium, handelsgymnasium etc) to College (universitet, handelshøjskole etc.) you usually get 100% of your grades from a single test/exam, so this hardly applies to DK.
I am only a senior in high school, but so far everything that I have done is busy work. I wouldn't pay anyone to do my homework, but I don't really learn from it. Last year I took a trig class that I just didn't get at all and got straight D's on my tests, but by getting participation points from homework I pulled out with a C+.
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: It's only "100%" wrong in a concrete sense if it's illegal or something, yes?
It is 'illegal' in the sense that it's blatantly against the rules of most schools and would get you kicked out. We accept a lot of sub-state authorities for defining rules - it's not illegal to hack in SC2 competitions, but we sure as hell are against that too.
Of course it's illegal to do that; what are you smoking?
It's against the rules of the tournament. It is, by definition, illegal.
There is no law against it, but it is against the rules. I was comparing it to the definition here:
On January 10 2012 05:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: Well I meant illegal in terms of the school's board, not the actual government...bad wording I guess.
Where he suggests that as there is no law against getting people to do your papers. This is technically true, but it is 'illegal' in a sense there are non-government rules against it (as in the case of cheating in a tournament).
My point is that just because something does not have a national law against it, does not mean it is therefore a moral or acceptable action, given that there are other authorities such an act may fall under.
Fair point. But what if the person involved does not hold the same moral values for his own reasons? What if he value avoiding cheating, but is compelled to overcome this moral impediment due to financial necessity? I don't know, those are just some ideas, not to disagree or anything
I'd say that because you've accepted the terms of the institution to study there, you also have to abide by their rules to receive a degree from them. Therefore your personal convictions are less important since you're accountable to more than just yourself.
On January 10 2012 00:00 Cytokinesis wrote: I just found out today about a certain site that allows you to do people's homework for cost. I'm still trying to wrap my head around just how big this is (One user made 35000 in 400 days doing other people's homework) but it really, really bothers me on an ethical standpoint. I work at a University and am working on a PhD at said university as well. So what ethical problems?
Firstly, the most obvious one is that people are cheating. This, oddly enough, is not the most important ethical issue at hand here. People cheat and in the long run it comes back to get them usually (if they do it a lot). This one is not so bothersome. Besides, this stuff happened before a mainstream site acted as a middleman and really popularized it.
The second issue is this advocacy for cheating. This is what trips me up. If someone can make a decent sum of money on the side for doing the odd assignment for students then the incentive is just ridiculous. What I mean is, financially, it would be hard for many professionals to resist making 300$ to write a paper for some kid. Of course the underlying issue there is wages for teachers and professors.
And finally I really find it as a disturbing social commentary on the way the education system works and is seen. The whole point of going to school is to learn these things yourself. I think it's also interesting as another service completely unavailable for poorer people. Someone with money can pay a professor to do all of the coursework for them and get all A's.
What do you guys think?
You pointed out the main issue in the OP that in the end it will bite them in the ass. On the flip side though a student studying computer science forced to learn a foreign language could easily justify cheating a final paper for that language to get the passing grade needed to graduate. For me though I just don't care if they do let them make their decisions.
The people that can afford this are probably going to be pretty damn well off. I know I don't have the money to throw around for a simple HW assignement. People that are well off can basically already pay their way into decent colleges, even great colleges sometimes. (I don't like it, but it happens a ton)
So this isn't much different in my opinion.
edit: In my highschool half the people don't even do HW and they still cost through with A's/B's in certain classes because of the weighting of tests/participation/homework. It might be different where you live, Idk
This is quite bad. You hire a some man to run your nuclear reactor. He does not know what he is doing because he paid someone else to know what to do for him. So he messes up and the reactor explodes. Of course nothing this dramatic will happen but...people doing things they don't know how to do. Leads to disaster. School = for learning
On January 10 2012 06:22 Grovbolle wrote: In Denmark when you switch from High School (gymnasium, handelsgymnasium etc) to College (universitet, handelshøjskole etc.) you usually get 100% of your grades from a single test/exam, so this hardly applies to DK.
You can get courses at uni in denmark which is either assignments which gives you upto 50% of your grade(dependant on course) for that course, or take home exams which accounts for your entire grade. So its very much posible to do in denmark as well.
Personally, I don't see the big deal... If they are competent enough to pass exams (which in my experience were usually between 60-80% of the final mark) then all they really did was spare themselves some time...
If they are incompetent, the exam or workplace will sort them out.
Then we are quite lucky that usually anywhere from 50%-70% of your final grade stems from the final exam where you can't cheat. At least that's how it is at my uni. Oh and they also have a policy where you HAVE to pass your final exam with a certain amount. e.g. if you get full marks for assignments and u've already earnt 40% of your grade, you can't just do 20% of your final exam and leave. you have to finish it and achieve a pass mark
I don't know about your last point, I mean, if anything this legitimizes poor people with a good education even more. If you are an employer and you find that all the rich kids you are hiring don't know what they are doing because they didn't learn anything, you might conclude that you should higher the poorer kids who couldn't get through without learning a bunch.
Of course, this doesn't really happen because doing busy work homework isn't the same thing as learning, and even if it was, learning a ton in college isn't really necessary for most jobs.
Yes yes, this is a HUGE over simplification and I'm sure that whatever you learned in college is absolutely critical for your career (substituting your friend/family/whatever in place of 'you' where necessary), but for the kids that go to college to get a job (and not to learn as much as they can), being able to say "I have a degree in..." is more important anyway, where learning what is required for that degree is less so.
The person who does all the homework themselves will always get better results (there are always exceptions, but this is the general rule). They are only shooting themselves in the foot because when it comes time to do the work themselves where they can't pay another person to do it (such as an exam), they are screwed.
If the homework counts towards their mark/grade and they're getting someone else to do it, that disgusts me that people are cheating and getting results they don't deserve.
On January 10 2012 00:09 peidongyang wrote: Yes, I have huge issues about this. First of all, they are graduating with an inflated mark. If the school has a bellcurve, not only are they getting a degree which you don't deserve, they are harming those who deserve higher marks by skewing the bellcurve.
More importantly, they have not learned the skills you needed to learn in school, and will completely screw over every employer over. Many people not graduating without the proper skills (and these people are usually lazy) leads to terrible productivity at work.
In terms of doing homework for money, its really sad that there are not enough jobs out there that so many people are resorting to doing these things. Even if they're very lucrative, it's just ethically wrong.
By your logic curving by a bell curve or any form of curving at all also provides people with degrees they don't deserve since curving differentiates within a single school, let alone across all Universities in the world.
Not really, because the value of your degree depends on where you obtained it.
On January 10 2012 06:26 FoeHamr wrote: I am only a senior in high school, but so far everything that I have done is busy work. I wouldn't pay anyone to do my homework, but I don't really learn from it. Last year I took a trig class that I just didn't get at all and got straight D's on my tests, but by getting participation points from homework I pulled out with a C+.
Not even remotely relevant to college/university. Completely different. High school is a joke where tests make up less than 50% of your final grade, it's all about busy work. Rarely did I find a lot of busy work in college. Homework was actually useful, and unlike math class in high school which I managed to literally curve over 75% of the tests I took, I needed to study intensively for calc. I didn't even understand the friggin' HW 80% of the time, I relied heavily on the solution manuals for the odd numbered problems...
in German universities (at least at my time there) you needed to do homework to be allowed the sit the exam, however, it would contribute ZERO percent to the mark you get.
So, go for it, if you want.
In the school I went to, there were exactly two papers you had to prepare at home that counted towards your final marks, everything else you had to deliver in exams. The first one was an essay representing about 25 % of your mark in German in Grade 9 or so, the second one was a research paper that accounted for 3 % of your a-Levels mark.
On January 10 2012 07:56 Fealthas wrote: This is quite bad. You hire a some man to run your nuclear reactor. He does not know what he is doing because he paid someone else to know what to do for him. So he messes up and the reactor explodes. Of course nothing this dramatic will happen but...people doing things they don't know how to do. Leads to disaster. School = for learning
They always have multiple people for that type of activity/job... and double/triple check things... at least with engineering it is...
Honestly, I don't really care either way. I mean, if someone's doing it for core classes for their major, then they're just going to get bit on the ass at finals when they don't know how to do anything. At least in my classes (Comp Sci fwiw), the overall grade is usually something like 60% tests/finals (or more), so paying someone to do my homework won't make me pass the class because I likely won't be able to pass the tests.
I mean, if someone wants to do it, that's fine. I'm not going to try to stop them. Either it's effectively harmless because it's for some Gen Ed. requirement that's irrelevant to their chosen field, so they're just as capable at their job as without the help, or they are doing it for core classes and the students suffer the real-world consequences (getting fired/not hired at all due to incompetency, etc). Honestly, if I was hiring someone, I wouldn't really care if he did this for a non-core class. If I'm hiring an engineer, and he can do his job competently, I don't really care if he paid someone to write his Art History final paper.
Of course it's unethical but seriously how are you going to stop it?
Here in China there's even a whole system of cheating. Student A writes down the questions and goes to the toilet, leaves the paper in a stall and leaves. Another student B, not from the same class goes and takes the paper and gives it to student C who is the pro and writes out all the answers. Then gives it to student D who types it out on a computer somewhere and mass sends it to the students taking the exam through a program. They get paid per student afterwards. Teachers here get reviewed on the passing percentage of their class so they usually turn a blind eye to cheating. People blatantly checking their phones underneath the tables and stuff. Even if a teacher catches a student looking they will just give them a verbal warning or take away their phones. It's usually the 3rd and 4th years doing 1st and 2nd years exams though, and mostly the dumb subjects no one takes seriously like Marxist philosophy.
This shit wouldn't even fly in Hong Kong or Sweden. You would be expelled on the spot.
On January 10 2012 07:56 Fealthas wrote: This is quite bad. You hire a some man to run your nuclear reactor. He does not know what he is doing because he paid someone else to know what to do for him. So he messes up and the reactor explodes. Of course nothing this dramatic will happen but...people doing things they don't know how to do. Leads to disaster. School = for learning
I have been inside a reactor building on a guided tour. If there is any kind of trouble, the computer takes over for a certain time period (20 minutes?) and the humans pretty much sit there and twiddle their thumbs
The entire Education system can be summed up by the fact that it looks better for the majority of your students to both graduate and do so with high grades. In the lower learning this means you'll get more funding, more stuff and generally the feeling that man you sure are special. In the high end it's just replaced with wanting students to pay huge sums of money to take classes they don't need for degrees that in many cases can not and should not be learned from a classroom.
Ethics went out the window when they started letting credit companies pay to be on campuses, or when it was decided that it's okay to fill the halls of higher academia with educators who are at best dubious choices for the role.
This is just filling the need that is needed, cheating like this will prepare you for the world around you far more then any course on the deep meanings on the writings of a man that half the people who you will call boss couldn't tell you a thing about themselves. You don't actually do anything if you can pay someone else to do it or figure out a way to game the system. If you can cheat and get away with it, do it. You'll often learn more just by the effort put in to not be caught.
I don't mean to sound rude and crash about it but let's face it. You can get away with it why wouldn't you do it? That's how the world works, and more then likely you'll get ahead and if it isn't hurting anyone then why not? Ethics are all fun and well but ethics never put food on the table(unless you wrote a paper for someone about ethics..)
On January 10 2012 07:56 Fealthas wrote: This is quite bad. You hire a some man to run your nuclear reactor. He does not know what he is doing because he paid someone else to know what to do for him. So he messes up and the reactor explodes. Of course nothing this dramatic will happen but...people doing things they don't know how to do. Leads to disaster. School = for learning
They always have multiple people for that type of activity/job... and double/triple check things... at least with engineering it is...
Yeah, interestingly enough this actually would represent a failing of the organizations technical interviewing skills. Cheating like this devalues formal education by reducing the correlation between educational degrees and working knowledge. Which frankly I'm fine with. When I give some one a technical interview, I'm generally more interested in what they know, and how they handle the things they don't know, than I am with what piece of paper they may or may not have manipulated out of some educational institution. Would be nice to see a less morally ambiguous means to this end though.
On January 10 2012 08:16 Brett wrote: Personally, I don't see the big deal... If they are competent enough to pass exams (which in my experience were usually between 60-80% of the final mark) then all they really did was spare themselves some time...
If they are incompetent, the exam or workplace will sort them out.
This is what I learned from the last thread about someone paying someone to write his final thesis for him. The people paying others to do their homework for them are the ones that pass the tests and exams easily but are just too lazy or don't have time to do the homework. It's not like you have the morons failing all the tests paying people to do their homework, because like others have said, they still arn't gonna pass with tests/exams involved.
I know it sounds cheesy but cheating will catch up with them eventually. I know a group of people that though they were beating the system by cheating in first year but I guess none of them thought ahead to third or fourth year. By cheating I mean they got one guy to do all the homework I heard they cheated on some midterms not sure about finals, they're usually better supervised. Anyways I was in a fourth year biochem class with a girl I know cheated during most of first year and she failed that class miserably. I really don't even know how she got in that class she had no idea what was going on. At the end of the semester the prof posted the grades distribution and someone got 12% I have no doubt that was her, the next lowest mark was a 42%.
This is nothing compared to people getting hired to write essays for college applicants (and sometimes even write up the whole application). Education (and anything involved in bettering someone's resume) is corrupt, that's just the way it is.
On January 10 2012 09:06 Parnage wrote: The entire Education system can be summed up by the fact that it looks better for the majority of your students to both graduate and do so with high grades. In the lower learning this means you'll get more funding, more stuff and generally the feeling that man you sure are special. In the high end it's just replaced with wanting students to pay huge sums of money to take classes they don't need for degrees that in many cases can not and should not be learned from a classroom.
Ethics went out the window when they started letting credit companies pay to be on campuses, or when it was decided that it's okay to fill the halls of higher academia with educators who are at best dubious choices for the role.
This is just filling the need that is needed, cheating like this will prepare you for the world around you far more then any course on the deep meanings on the writings of a man that half the people who you will call boss couldn't tell you a thing about themselves. You don't actually do anything if you can pay someone else to do it or figure out a way to game the system. If you can cheat and get away with it, do it. You'll often learn more just by the effort put in to not be caught.
I don't mean to sound rude and crash about it but let's face it. You can get away with it why wouldn't you do it? That's how the world works, and more then likely you'll get ahead and if it isn't hurting anyone then why not? Ethics are all fun and well but ethics never put food on the table(unless you wrote a paper for someone about ethics..)
Your post is full of falsehoods.
Getting into academia as a lecturer is one of the most competitive and selective jobs you can apply for. You need to have a relevant PhD to even be glanced at, and there are very few openings at respectable research universities.
I don't see how cheating will prepare you for anything other than cheating, and covering your ass. Covering your ass is something I think about a lot, without ever having cheated. You will not learn more by cheating, in fact you won't learn anything. Cheating doesn't tell you how to solve a partial differential equation, or analyze a time series, or write a general insurance contract, or how to design an evidence-based policy response to depressed customer demand, or code a video game.
On January 10 2012 14:30 novabossa wrote: This is nothing compared to people getting hired to write essays for college applicants (and sometimes even write up the whole application). Education (and anything involved in bettering someone's resume) is corrupt, that's just the way it is.
I don't think we should get into a fight about whose country is better, but in Australia you get a university admission score, and if you're above the cut-off for the course you get in.
No phony applications or essays required, just your score based on exams and assessments.
I don't see why university should admit based on fancy-worded letters as opposed to who has a higher score, i.e. academic merit. None of this, "I was captain of the dental hygiene club so I'll write it in my letter, justifying my worth, and the reason I should be admitted into this university".
While paying someone to write an admission essay is very wrong, it's nowhere near as bad as getting someone to complete an assignment that contributes to your marks, for example.
The discussion here seems to be centered on diong homework for college/university students. I don't think this is an issue, since in most cases, whether you get your degree or not is determined by your performance in tests and not by your homework. And if you manage to cheat your way to your degree, it will catch up to them later if they didn't aquire the knowledge they needed.
But another thing I'd like to mention is homework in middle/high school. I'm currently in my last year in the Gymnasium here in Germany which is like high school for you US folks. But basically up to this point, homework never taught me anything. Most of the time homework is just a tedius task, you have to do: for example if I know how to add to 2 numbers I don't need to do 50 simple additions as homework, as it will not teach me anything. And most teacher don't really care if you completed your homework good or bad, or how much time you invested, or what you've learned doing your homework, they just care if you do it or not.
On January 10 2012 22:32 ulfryc wrote: The discussion here seems to be centered on diong homework for college/university students. I don't think this is an issue, since in most cases, whether you get your degree or not is determined by your performance in tests and not by your homework. And if you manage to cheat your way to your degree, it will catch up to them later if they didn't aquire the knowledge they needed.
But another thing I'd like to mention is homework in middle/high school. I'm currently in my last year in the Gymnasium here in Germany which is like high school for you US folks. But basically up to this point, homework never taught me anything. Most of the time homework is just a tedius task, you have to do: for example if I know how to add to 2 numbers I don't need to do 50 simple additions as homework, as it will not teach me anything. And most teacher don't really care if you completed your homework good or bad, or how much time you invested, or what you've learned doing your homework, they just care if you do it or not.
I don't think anyone cares if you cheat on homework, which amounts to nothing.
It is ridiculous that someone with extra cash lying around can simply pay to have their work done. Being a student is like a job, if you slack off and have someone else doing your work, then you aren't worth employing. I hope that any students that get caught with this are punished severally.
On January 10 2012 23:11 TheLOLas wrote: It is ridiculous that someone with extra cash lying around can simply pay to have their work done. Being a student is like a job, if you slack off and have someone else doing your work, then you aren't worth employing. I hope that any students that get caught with this are punished severally.
From my other thread, this is what someone wrote (substituting school for game):
Welcome to capitalism? I mean I'm serious, trading money for time and vice versa is completely standard in almost all aspects of life.
It makes sense it would transfer into schooling as well.
People are always going to do this. If you're rich enough you won't care about its legality. It makes sense for schools and universities to legalize it...
I don't mean to sound rude and crash about it but let's face it. You can get away with it why wouldn't you do it? That's how the world works, and more then likely you'll get ahead and if it isn't hurting anyone then why not? Ethics are all fun and well but ethics never put food on the table(unless you wrote a paper for someone about ethics..)
I'd really just like to focus on this part of your argument. In this case the idea that you're not hurting anyone is not true. Most universities grade on a curve so by students taking a higher mark they do not deserve this hurts everyone else working toward their mark fairly. So in this case the argument doesn't work because you are hurting people even if indirectly which is usually the case and part of the reason we have Ethics in the first place, to minimize harm/increase happiness of all those affected by a given action.
I don't see anything wrong with it. I never gave two shits whether people were cheating or not. In the end, I am competing with them for a job and they haven't learned what I have. They may get hired based on academics, but if they aren't competent, no productive employer is going to keep them and then they've just pissed away thousands on an education they didn't get.
i think its fine, cuz if they dont care then w/e and plus its their life and money. i once got paid 2000 to do an online course, was pretty sweet since it took like 3 weeks to finish it haha
On January 12 2012 19:35 iG.Forever wrote: i think its fine, cuz if they dont care then w/e and plus its their life and money. i once got paid 2000 to do an online course, was pretty sweet since it took like 3 weeks to finish it haha
Teaching is one thing, but doing for others' substitutes is another.
This thread being necro'd by spam selling this service is... quite something.
Surprised this didn't come alive during the pandemic. There were horror stories of class tests being found basically worthless after it was determined that sizeable fractions of the class definitely cheated (and lord knows how many were not as dumb and didn't get caught).
This is crazy right now anyway. My wife is a teacher and says basically everything pupils have to do at home is ChatGPT, be it standard homework or graded reciations or whatever
On April 11 2024 17:38 Harris1st wrote: This is crazy right now anyway. My wife is a teacher and says basically everything pupils have to do at home is ChatGPT, be it standard homework or graded reciations or whatever
It depends on the subject and the assignment, but AI can definitely make certain tasks easier to learn (or cheat).
That may or may not help students when it comes time for them to take an in-class test or write an in-class paper, though.
I have heard language students suggest using ChatGPT to grade papers they write themselves. It is hard to get enough teacher hours to grade things you write, so as long as it does it decently it seems good to me. At least until you hit high school level of writing, which takes a long time when learning a new language.
EPT
