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It's nice to start the topic on TL as we have people from all over the world here.
I've been taught since elementary school that Patriatism is a super good thing, and everyone should love his country and devote himself (even life) to his country. Later, I only had a feeling that I actually didn't love my country that much. Then one day, I thought Patriotism is full of shit. Today, I suddenly get this idea, that Patriotism is a damn same thing with Racism by nature.
TLers, do you think patriotism is right? Is rooting for the player from your own country considered as out of patriotism?
EDIT: I find people are repeating several opinions over and over. So if your point of view is as follows, please consider elaborate a little.
AP (Anti-Patriotism): It's not right because loving your country simply because you were born in it is not rational.
P1: I love it not because I was born in it. It's an instinct (evolution heritage) that people tend to be protective to their neighborhood.
P2: That I love my own country doesn't mean I hate others.
AP: P means you love your country more than other countries. So you have the tend to differentiate, which is the same with racism.
AP: Nietzsche:"Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too." Taoism:"The greatest love seems indifferent."
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In Sweden patriotism isn't encouraged for those exact reasons. It's too similar to racism, and considering we have a large influx of foreigners from all over the world, that's very bad for business so to speak.
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Completely different.
Racism is making judgments based on race (which is, in itself a nebulous term).
Patriotism is being proud of the country you are from, not judging other people based on the country they are from.
Patriotism can obviously be skewed/manipulated towards racism but in the strictest sense of the words they are two different things.
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Black people and white people can both love the same country. Both be patriots.
To be a patriot, you only have to love your own country, you dont have to hate other poeple's.
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Patriotism is only an issue when it turns into nationalism.
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It's not so much the people as the system I don't like. If your hate is directed to a whole country it makes me believe that you are misguided of what truely is the root of the problems. A country shouldn't be seen as a single entity, it is too complex.
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It's possible to have a nationalist movement that isn't racist, but it's not very probable.
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its kinda fun, cuz in France / Spain / USA etc everyone loves their country and thinks they are the best.
If someone in sweden would say that he would be a racist and later on been disliked by the citizens in sweden lol
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"Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is I'm not. I honestly just feel that America's the best country and all the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism."
Can't remember what the hell this quote is from but a friend of mine linked it to me not too long ago and I thought it was pretty neat.
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United States44402 Posts
Both are letting subjective feelings affect your judgement on the merits of different things. Any kind of subjective irrational logic is likely to be wrong based on the facts at hand. I can, for example, claim the UK football side is the best but we don't seem to win many world cups. That said, if your patriotism is purely positive about your own country then whatever, you can feel what you like and not impact anyone else.
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Swedish patriotism is very close to nasism. I hate it, the working class has no nationality. And I really do think thats true, instead of focusing on who is from who or that people look differently. Focus on the real enemy.
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Patriotism in itself is pretty neutral. Being patriotic certainly isn't something anyone should strive for, but also isn't something to be condemned.
The main problem is that people are patriotic mostly for no reason. They really like their country because... they were born and live in it! People should recognize that their country probably isn't particularly special. I'm from the UK and think my country is alright. If you like your country, fine, but it's not something you should be immensely excited about.
As for people supporting players from the same country as them, it's just really strange that people feel some kind of connection with someone else just because they happen by chance to live in the same massive area as you and are one of the probably many millions of people who live in that country. It's just so completely negligible.
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Patriotism and nationalism is basically the same thing, and loving your country often turns into hating others.
For instance day9 talked about people loving their favourite game, right? And that people so so often felt it necessary to shit all over other games that they hadn't even tried. It's kind of a silly comparison, but I think it has some truth in it. Remember when the halo players got booed of stage by starcraft fans?
Patriotism also often leads to a 'us and them' kind of thinking, which makes cooperation harder.
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On November 24 2011 00:55 Luepert wrote:
Black people and white people can both love the same country. Both be patriots.
To be a patriot, you only have to love your own country, you dont have to hate other poeple's.
During the 70s many white supremicist movements started preaching that they didn't hate other races they just loved white people more.
Any kind of ideology that has people making groups of "us" and "them" tends to be bad. I believe that it would be for the best if we could live a post national world but seeing as people would never cooperate in the manner neccessary for it happen countries are neccessary evil. Unfortunately this leads to the abuse of patriotism.
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We in the US are educated in the public school system to devote ourselves to some ideal that is merely a chance of birth location.
I find it funny that the internet community is so full of atheists who believe that one doesn't need to follow religion based on parents and birth circumstances, yet the internet community seems to be very patriotic and nationalistic. To me the underlying thought process is the same.
I am not patriotic and certainly not a fan of the government. The concepts of nations and governments are service institutions that the people have created for themselves for the betterment of their life and society. Once these service institutions no longer serve the people (in whole or individually), one should no longer be bound to them.
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I guess a sprinkle of Patriotism or even Nationalism doesn't hurt. When it comes too much thou, then things starts to rot and stink.
That line is too thin thou, and you can often cross it without understanding it and end up looking like a donkey. Supporting your national team is fine, as long as this doesn't turn into hate for the opposition. Supporting players from your nationality is fine, as long as you don't do it blindly. Even supporting players that have adopted your nationality to represent your country is fine. I don't see that as a problem, because after all, it's just one small thing that you're similar to the player you're cheering for with.
In that generation we live in, we're far too global to be concerned with small talks of politics and nationalism I think. With each day we're looking more and more into the big picture. As Earthlings, not as Americans or Chinese or whatever. Pretty much, Patriotism boils down to how proud and happy are you from your country. But your country is being represented by your government. And I think it's safe to say, that not a lot of us actually like their governments much. So I understand why you get the idea of it being bad or just full of shit.
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Patriotism has to be nationalistic, then nationalism has to be intrusive, then this intrusiveness can develop into racism.
There are different steps of patriotism, as others have mentioned. But if you believe your country is the best without rational justification, which comprise of a significant portion of patriots, you are probably subjective enough to be a racist too. That's changing though.
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While I understand that patriotism and racism aren't the same thing, I despise patriotism anyway. I just can't understand the thoughts behind it and I consider it a harmful idea.
Anyway, I don't blame people who call themselves patriots for anything and I don't try to change their minds. Live and let live.
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I think patriotism is more common in USA and parts of East Asia.
No European will proudly cheer Germany! Germany! Germany! or France! or UK!
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Racists/Nationalists LOVE to declare themselves as Patriots. Some self declared Patriots themselves do not even realise that they are actually just racist idiots.
Thats the only real problem with "Patriotism" but a REALLY big one. Patriotism itself wouldn't be bad (just stupid/pointless/unreasonable), the people that like to call themselves "Patriots" often are...
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EPT
