|
Patriotism is a joke. At it's best it's basically saying X country is the best because "I" was born in it. It's one of the most extreme forms of narcissim it's possible to have. At it's worst it breeds xenophobia, isolationism and war.
Some countries (North Korea, USA and undoubtedly a few more) routinely tell their citizens they are "so smart" or that their country is the best in the world, because it gives the people a false sense of superiority, achievement by proxy and making them think they have it as good as it's possible to get. Unfortunately this is obviously untrue. The propaganda machine works and drastically reduces the likelihood of citizens complaining about how bad their life seems to be, preventing them from rising up and having a better quality of life.
It really does sadden me to see so many people manipulated so easily  .
|
On November 24 2011 00:50 bonedriven wrote:
It's nice to start the topic on TL as we have people from all over the world here.
I've been taught since elementary school that Patriatism is a super good thing, and everyone should love his country and devote himself (even life) to his country. Later, I only had a feeling that I actually didn't love my country that much. Then one day, I thought Patriotism is full of shit. Today, I suddenly get this idea, that Patriotism is a damn same thing with Racism by nature.
TLers, do you think patriotism is right? Is rooting for the player from your own country considered as out of patriotism?
That is like comparing apples and asteroids. Its like absolutely and utterly different things.
Patriotism is when you love your country, because its your people, you know your tribe in a sense. Racism is like completely different, its judging people based on race.
Patriotism is defensing your country from a foreign or internal enemy and being proud and appreciative of your country.
I don't see how patriotism is bad. The globalists will have you believe we need collectivism, but that is something to stay as far away from as possible. I mean patriotism is also deeply rooted with freedom and liberty so if anyone says patriotism is bad then you better know the guy is either misguided or a bad person.
|
I live in a rich, reasonably tolerant, reasonably democratic, reasonably free society of laws and justice. Am I grateful that I happened to be born on this island? Certainly? Am I proud of that happy accident? No man. Why should I take pride in something I have not achieved? Why should anyone take a step further and claim superiority over others?
Calling someone a racist because they express patriotism is in my opinion unhelpful to the point of being a bit mental, but honestly I don't know anyone who has a problem with patriotism.
The problem is so many confuse nationalism and patriotism. A colleague of mine is a member of the English Defence League, in theory committed to keeping the, ah, somewhat spurious notion of 'englishness' alive, in practice committed to marching through areas with a high muslim population shouting race hate. He claims repeatedly, it's not about hate, it's about pride in your country. Well if we restrict people for not being 'english' enough ("NO MORE MOSQUES IN BRITAIN"), what pride is to be had?
Anyway. I am a firm believer that in these globalised times any attempt to retreat inwards, to focus on your own nation in lieu of international cooperation, is stupidity. (EDIT: not to blindly support total globalism, of course)
Interesting aside, a conversation I had with a BNP supporter during the last general election;
'We're not nazis, we have nothing to do with the nazis! Our politics are closer to socialism, we're basically socialists!'
'So...you would describe yourselves as nationalist socialists?'
'Exactly!'
*burst out laughing*
|
patriotism is fine as long as you are rooting for ur homecountry or player from your country. its just normal because u feel connected through language and culture. when you start saying "oh i feel proud of my country" its just the first step to racism.
|
I dislike all forms of the human herd instinct. Doesn't matter if it's nationalism, racism, partisan politics, school cliques, even sports.
Human beings simply have an evolved a tendency to place themselves and others into groups and have an "us vs. them" mentality. We evolved to be tribalistic creatures. Pretty much everyone succumbs to it, even the people who are naive enough to think they are "above" things like racism. It's all the herd instinct, simply in different forms. They see no problem hating Republicans, for example, even though it is nothing more than a psychological generalization.
There's really no solution to it, because like I said it's in our nature. It's best to simply be perpetually aware of it, in all it's forms and facets.
|
Patriotism in the truest sense of the word is really simply devotion to one's country. Devotion is not baseless pride. True patriots are not self-proclaimed, nor do they eschew other nations or cultures. "Patriotism" today (especially in USA) is a widely misused term and really only serves to help rationalize racist behavior. True patriotism's main effect is the improvement and betterment of your society and country, in a selfless way. Kind of an "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" sort of thing. This obnoxious proclaiming that one's country is the best is NOT patriotism, its closer to nationalism.
|
On November 24 2011 01:13 TheBomb wrote:
I don't see how patriotism is bad. The globalists will have you believe we need collectivism, but that is something to stay as far away from as possible. I mean patriotism is also deeply rooted with freedom and liberty so if anyone says patriotism is bad then you better know the guy is either misguided or a bad person.
Trollin' too hard here.
|
Would Swedish people be willing to dissolve their government and legal systems and be absorbed as part of Finland? Should Canada cease to exist and its laws be torn asunder and be simply added as the 51st US State? Why does Switzerland even exist? Doesn't 95% of the population speak either German, French, or Italian? Why not integrate into these other, larger countries? Should Ireland return to the UK? Why not become another part of the Kingdom and accept their law?
Saying "No" to that is patriotism. Some people talk about "Oh, I was just born in this country by chance" so should you really care if your country gets deleted? Your culture and language can still exist within another country. There's something more about having your own country - your "people" make your own laws and govern yourselves and make your own decisions. It doesn't mean Swedes think Finland's system is inferior, they just want their own because they are Swedes.
Supporting self-determination is patriotism. Patriotism is not a bad word by itself, though it can be hijacked.
|
well patriotism is very closely related to pride. As is Racism. Pride can be a good thing. You shouldnt let other people walk over you for what you believe and who you are, thats the good side. Unfortunately people tend to use pride in a negative way, instead of opening up to new ideas they pride themselves in what they know and who they are, and they are to afraid to change and listen.
|
I don't think swedes are better than other people but I do like how the swedish society works (most of it at least) compared to other societies. What does this make me? A patriot, a nationalist, or a racist?
I can add that I'm possitive to globalisation and got plenty of foreign friends of mixed ethnicities. 
|
On November 24 2011 01:16 The KY wrote:
I live in a rich, reasonably tolerant, reasonably democratic, reasonably free society of laws and justice. Am I grateful that I happened to be born on this island? Certainly? Am I proud of that happy accident? No man. Why should I take pride in something I have not achieved? Why should anyone take a step further and claim superiority over others?
Exactly how I feel on the matter. I don't give a shit about being British, Britishness, Englishness or the idea of patriotism and I don't see why anyone would.
On November 24 2011 01:16 The KY wrote:
Interesting aside, a conversation I had with a BNP supporter during the last general election;
'We're not nazis, we have nothing to do with the nazis! Our politics are closer to socialism, we're basically socialists!'
'So...you would describe yourselves as nationalist socialists?'
'Exactly!'
*burst out laughing*
Hahahaha, that's fucking brilliant. Shows the general level of intelligence of BNP supporters, who I generally hate with a passion that burns brighter than a thousand suns.
|
On November 24 2011 00:50 bonedriven wrote:
It's nice to start the topic on TL as we have people from all over the world here.
I've been taught since elementary school that Patriatism is a super good thing, and everyone should love his country and devote himself (even life) to his country. Later, I only had a feeling that I actually didn't love my country that much. Then one day, I thought Patriotism is full of shit. Today, I suddenly get this idea, that Patriotism is a damn same thing with Racism by nature.
TLers, do you think patriotism is right? Is rooting for the player from your own country considered as out of patriotism?
I used to think Patriotism (or it's cousin Nationalism, which is more common in Europe) is evil. I still don't agree with it but I have a more nuanced view now. On the one hand nationalism tells you that you should put your fellow countrymen before people from other countries. In the extreme some people actually think Chinese people, French, Hungarians etc. are better than everyone else. This view is dangerously close to racism and isn't something that I would ever defend.
On the other hand nationalism (and to a lesser extent patriotism) can form the basis of solidarity. In the end societies work better if individual members care about each other at least to some extent. Laws and constitutions are nice but if the political process turns into a naked fight over resources and power they won't help.
You actually need people to subordinate their individual interests to the "public good" some of the time. Yet from a purely rational point of view this usually doesn't make sense. Historically it was nationalism that has provided the basis for this kind of "irrational solidarity"
|
the way i see it, patriotism is loving the country you were born/live in, and wanting to do something to make it better. is it really that bad? =/
|
patriotism is like glue that helps hold states together (read:helps with the territorial pissing). Religion and language are other tools/characteristics that serve the same purpose,however when a state has multiple languages and religions the concept of patriotism has to be strengthened by any means possible so that citizens will be more willing to do things that they would otherwise prefer not to (war, taxes, votes etc).
It's true that with the globalization of everything the concept of patriotism is starting to weaken; good riddance if you ask me, all that people find positive in patriotism is borrowed, substitute for something else or completely irrational.
On November 24 2011 01:27 ChriS-X wrote:
the way i see it, patriotism is loving the country you were born/live in, and wanting to do something to make it better. is it really that bad? =/
what you love is your childhood memories dude, you enjoy the details of your life surroundings. That is not bad, but it applies to everyone in the world and it certainly doesn't make your country's borders special. Also, wanting to make your country better is bad only in the sense that it ignores the rest of the world . People better start thinking on the human civilization scale soon enough or the odds are that everything will go down in flames
|
On November 24 2011 01:24 Batch wrote:I don't think swedes are better than other people but I do like how the swedish society works (most of it at least) compared to other societies. What does this make me? A patriot, a nationalist, or a racist? I can add that I'm possitive to globalisation and got plenty of foreign friends of mixed ethnicities.
Some systems and cultures are superior to others. Its not very politically correct but it is true. Does not make you a patriot or a racist or whatever, its just how it is.
|
I think Oscar Wilde puts it best.
Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.
oh and
Patriotism is the vice of nations.
|
On November 24 2011 01:21 Crisium wrote:
Would Swedish people be willing to dissolve their government and legal systems and be absorbed as part of Finland? Should Canada cease to exist and it's laws be torn asunder and be simply added as the 51st US State? Why does Switzerland even exist? Doesn't 95% of the population speak either German, French, or Italian? Why not integrate into these other, larger countries? Should Ireland return to the UK? Why not become another part of the Kingdom and accept their law?
Saying "No" to that is patriotism. Some people talk about "Oh, I was just born in this country by chance" so should you really care if your country gets deleted? Your culture and language can still exist within another country. There's something more about having your own country - your "people" make your own laws and govern yourselves and make your own decisions. It doesn't mean Swedes think Finland's system is inferior, they just want their own because they are Swedes.
Supporting self-determination is patriotism. Patriotism is not a bad word by itself, though it can be hijacked.
Talk about misunderstanding the subject at hand. It's one thing to want your country to have a certain political structure and a completely other thing to be patriotic. I for one would love to live in Norway since it's slightly better than Sweden, that doesn't mean I'm "patriotic" to Norway. Just means I'm using rational thought to decide which is best for me.
We should really define the word patriotism though. Most people will define it as Patriot = Proud to be X. That's why there's a general disgust towards patriots. Being proud of something for which you did nothing to achieve is ludicrous.
If Sweden suddenly adopted American law and societal structure I would move in an instant. That means I'm not a patriot and it also means I'm being rational.
|
It depends on the circumstances. For many regions, patriotism historically was and in some places still is the first and last line of defence. If you accept blind tolerance and submissiveness (we are X, and Y is better than us in every way), your lineage will die out or be assimilated in less than 100 years. So there must be a barrier that protects cultural distinctiveness in my opinion, and patriotism is the "evolution" of any species' or peoples' survival instinct.
When it turns offensive though, that's a different case altogether.
|
On November 24 2011 01:27 ChriS-X wrote:
the way i see it, patriotism is loving the country you were born/live in, and wanting to do something to make it better. is it really that bad? =/
Patriotism rarely leads to improvement. Patriotism is more likely an invisible chain that forces you to be satisfied with the way things are no matter how bad they get. (USA)
A true "patriot" is the person who criticizes the country and forces it to improve because otherwise they get the fuck out of there.
|
On November 24 2011 01:27 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 01:16 The KY wrote:
I live in a rich, reasonably tolerant, reasonably democratic, reasonably free society of laws and justice. Am I grateful that I happened to be born on this island? Certainly? Am I proud of that happy accident? No man. Why should I take pride in something I have not achieved? Why should anyone take a step further and claim superiority over others?
Exactly how I feel on the matter. I don't give a shit about being British, Britishness, Englishness or the idea of patriotism and I don't see why anyone would.Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 01:16 The KY wrote:
Interesting aside, a conversation I had with a BNP supporter during the last general election;
'We're not nazis, we have nothing to do with the nazis! Our politics are closer to socialism, we're basically socialists!'
'So...you would describe yourselves as nationalist socialists?'
'Exactly!'
*burst out laughing* Hahahaha, that's fucking brilliant. Shows the general level of intelligence of BNP supporters, who I generally hate with a passion that burns brighter than a thousand suns.
This is kind of what I was talking about above. It's all the herd instinct. It's stupid to define yourself as British, but BNP suppporters, those guys are scum!
Real enlightenment begins to come when you realize that you don't choose your opinions anymore than you choose what nation you were born in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
