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On November 24 2011 01:13 TheBomb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 00:50 bonedriven wrote:
It's nice to start the topic on TL as we have people from all over the world here.
I've been taught since elementary school that Patriatism is a super good thing, and everyone should love his country and devote himself (even life) to his country. Later, I only had a feeling that I actually didn't love my country that much. Then one day, I thought Patriotism is full of shit. Today, I suddenly get this idea, that Patriotism is a damn same thing with Racism by nature.
TLers, do you think patriotism is right? Is rooting for the player from your own country considered as out of patriotism?
I don't see how patriotism is bad. The globalists will have you believe we need collectivism, but that is something to stay as far away from as possible. I mean patriotism is also deeply rooted with freedom and liberty so if anyone says patriotism is bad then you better know the guy is either misguided or a bad person.
you are so tolerant, it's nice to see such well informed and open minded posts.
seriously how the fuck can you make the connection between "i don't really care about my country" and "collectivism". stop with the basic communist conspiracy theory, this is getting old.
ps : it's not because you've been indoctrinated since your birth that socialism is bad that it's actually bad, and your political opinions are not worth more than anyone else's, who are you to say that people are misguided or bad persons, this is ridiculous.
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Patriotism rocks =). Happy to live in USA, want to see it keep growing, see a lot of reforms go in place. Support or reclaim the title of top world superpower. All the rest of you can try for second place, or major in the things that you think really matter. Perhaps good culinary taste or raw intellect at the top tiers.
Put a doomsday scenario 10 years down the line; imagine entire country sinking in debt, unable to pay the basics and entire cities becoming slums. I'm still patriotic, want the US to go #1. Legislate in our best interests, and keep true to its founding principles. But man that's the external, that's to other countries. Inside, I'll be fighting for policies and public servants that will restore things, govern sanely and bring prosperity back. The bickering might get intense, but it goes hand in hand with patriotism. Proud of what we stand for through it all.
Racism? None of that. Neanderthal concept. For what it motivates, nothing. You don't band together out of hate for a certain race and get this delightful society as a side product. The rage and the conflict seeks out instead it's own undoing and a societal collapse. I mean you can try to take your head out of the game, and imagine that it just so happens that you were born in this country, and seeking it's glory instead of for all the people on the planet getting better. Imagine being born that race and promoting it's racial unity versus national unity. No, the community, and in my country, the assembly of states (and associated state pride, to a lesser extent) is both knowledge of culture and concern for events beyond the alternative mindset.
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In my books, patriotism and racism are completely separate.
It is possible to be both proud of your country and not be a racist...
But I bet we all hide secret racist tendencies anyway that we keep to ourselves, no matter if we are white, black, asian etc.
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pre-emptive edit: When I started writing this, I did not realise that this hardly day-old thread has approximately a bajillion (alternatively: over 9000) answers already. I guess by this time everything that can be said has already been said. Twice, proabably. But I didnt want to let the time it took me to write this go to waste, but consider yourself warned about my overly-long and badly structured post not having any actual new information for you.
Still listening? Then here you go, have fun:
Hey Guys, I felt like giving my two cents to this topic too.
Im from Germany. Well, f*ck. In a thread about patriotism, nationalism, and racism that goes for a bad start in anyones book.
German history is an obvious example for patriotism gone bad, and there are groups of idiots who manage to keep up that image, and they are probably not going to die out anytime soon. But luckily, they are a minority. Nevertheless, the other germans, who are mostly rather liberal and friendly to outsiders, though of course never completely free of prejudice, as noone really is, have to deal with this national trauma. Everywhere we are reminded of all the bad things "we" did: Tons of documenateries on the TV over and over again (in fact, I think we have more screentime about Nazi History than actual Nazi History), schools prioritising this piece of history over and over, and american immigrant services asking a 25-year old exchange student if he was involved with the Nazi party in WW2 before letting him in.
I dont want to downplay this, I think remembering is necessary, but I just wanted to make clear how big this trauma is to us. So, anyone who thinks good of his country here in germany feels directly in danger of being seen as nazi. Okay, I'm exaggerating a little bit here, but I guess this comic by Humon gives a good impression of how it feels to many of us.
That said, I am proud of my country. I like living here. We have a very high average standard of wealth, a strong and healthy economy, a good football team (including many germans with foreign roots), some awesome starcraft players, some of the best scientists in the world... and more and more. There are reasons to love this country, and you can always find reasons to love your country, whereever you live. I dont see any bad in either.
Now, should I call this patriotism? I dont really want to. This term is so loaded with negative views. I just like living here, being a german, but all that while being open minded to other cultures too.
I live in a students dorm, about half of my friends are from Arabic countries, eastern europe, France, Africa, even some Koreans and Chinese in there. Heck, even my girlfriend is from Poland. I dont see any reason why being a little bit (im not allowed more as a german, of course) proud of germany should stop me from being friendly to other people, no matter their origin.
In other countrys, patriotism works a bit differently. Some examples of "patriotism" being actively encouraged would be France, the USA and Poland. In these countries, waving the metaphorical or even the actual flag around and screaming the name of your country is generally seen favorably. And Hell yeah, why the f*ck not? They all have something to be proud of.
I can say a thing or two why thats the case in Poland, as the aforementioned girlfriend is from there, and why "patriotism" actually did them some good. I might be wrong, as this is second hand information, so if any polish readers want to correct me, feel free to do so, tak?
Poland is a country with a history that is cherished and held dear by their people. It is a part of their national Identity, a concept that germans are slowly starting to grasp again (in a positive way). Poland was a powerful force in medieval times, a strong kingdom with a famed military at many times, and at one time even giving some kind of democracy a shot. Later on, the country was divided by outside forces several times, namely prussia, russia and austria (i think thats right, dont kill me if its not), and later by Hitler and Stalin, both ravaging and exploiting the country while it was under their rule. The polish people managed to keep their identity, and keep their country together through all hardships, and finally managed to shrug off the communistic rule to build up a modern, west-oriented state. Their national identity sure did help them endure the foreign rule. Of course, thats not all there is to it, but they have good reason to be proud of their people anyway.
In this post, I tried to give some different views to this topic. I personally am strongly opposed to Racism, or rather negative prejudices in general, but I think that doesn't have to be connected to the terms patriotism and nationalism. Loving one thing should not make you hate another, although many small minded people do exactly that.
TLDR: I think we just gotta love'em all, and cheering for HasuObs shouldn't stop me from cheering for WhiteRa!
Edit: One aspect of this topic that I didnt make too clear is that some organisations and people often use patriotism for their means. I despise this whole-heartedly. Patriotism as I described it can be a good thing, or at least not a bad thing, as long as it stays on a personal level and isnt used by a "movement" or gets political. And I should probably stop here before I double the length of my post again 
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On November 24 2011 21:39 Danglars wrote:
[...] want the US to go #1 [...]
so you want the US to be better than other countries, or healthier, or better living conditions than other countries? (:
patriotism is not necessarily racism. it's identifying and often ignorance to those who you dont identify with which leads to racism.
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i don't think patriotism is necessarily a bad thing. i like norway and i think it's one of the best countries there is.
i think the law and politics are overall good. so to protect the culture from influences of "lesser/eviler" cultures
is somthing i honestly can't say is a bad thing.
so how to globalize ? the only way i see it is by exporting our culture on to others. just like america is exproting freedom and
democracy to the middle-east.
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On November 24 2011 23:20 RedHerring[Ger] wrote:pre-emptive edit: When I started writing this, I did not realise that this hardly day-old thread has approximately a bajillion (alternatively: over 9000) answers already. I guess by this time everything that can be said has already been said. Twice, proabably. But I didnt want to let the time it took me to write this go to waste, but consider yourself warned about my overly-long and badly structured post not having any actual new information for you. Still listening? Then here you go, have fun: Hey Guys, I felt like giving my two cents to this topic too. Im from Germany. Well, f*ck. In a thread about patriotism, nationalism, and racism that goes for a bad start in anyones book. German history is an obvious example for patriotism gone bad, and there are groups of idiots who manage to keep up that image, and they are probably not going to die out anytime soon. But luckily, they are a minority. Nevertheless, the other germans, who are mostly rather liberal and friendly to outsiders, though of course never completely free of prejudice, as noone really is, have to deal with this national trauma. Everywhere we are reminded of all the bad things "we" did: Tons of documenateries on the TV over and over again (in fact, I think we have more screentime about Nazi History than actual Nazi History), schools prioritising this piece of history over and over, and american immigrant services asking a 25-year old exchange student if he was involved with the Nazi party in WW2 before letting him in. I dont want to downplay this, I think remembering is necessary, but I just wanted to make clear how big this trauma is to us. So, anyone who thinks good of his country here in germany feels directly in danger of being seen as nazi. Okay, I'm exaggerating a little bit here, but I guess this comic gives a good impression of how it feels to many of us: this comic by HumonThat said, I am proud of my country. I like living here. We have a very high average standard of wealth, a strong and healthy economy, a good football team (including many germans with foreign roots), some awesome starcraft players, some of the best scientists in the world... and more and more. There are reasons to love this country, and you can always find reasons to love your country, whereever you live. I dont see any bad in either. Now, should I call this patriotism? I dont really want to. This term is so loaded with negative views. I just like living here, being a german, but all that while being open minded to other cultures too. I live in a students dorm, about half of my friends are from Arabic countries, eastern europe, France, Africa, even some Koreans and Chinese in there. Heck, even my girlfriend is from Poland. I dont see any reason why being a little bit (im not allowed more as a german, of course) proud of germany should stop me from being friendly to other people, no matter their origin. In other countrys, patriotism works a bit differently. Some examples of "patriotism" being actively encouraged would be France, the USA and Poland. In these countries, waving the metaphorical or even the actual flag around and screaming the name of your country is generally seen favorably. And Hell yeah, why the f*ck not? They all have something to be proud of. I can say a thing or two why thats the case in Poland, as the aforementioned girlfriend is from there, and why "patriotism" actually did them some good. I might be wrong, as this is second hand information, so if any polish readers want to correct me, feel free to do so, tak? Poland is a country with a history that is cherished and held dear by their people. It is a part of their national Identity, a concept that germans are slowly starting to grasp again (in a positive way). Poland was a powerful force in medieval times, a strong kingdom with a famed military at many times, and at one time even giving some kind of democracy a shot. Later on, the country was divided by outside forces several times, namely prussia, russia and austria (i think thats right, dont kill me if its not), and later by Hitler and Stalin, both ravaging and exploiting the country while it was under their rule. The polish people managed to keep their identity, and keep their country together through all hardships, and finally managed to shrug off the communistic rule to build up a modern, west-oriented state. Their national identity sure did help them endure the foreign rule. Of course, thats not all there is to it, but they have good reason to be proud of their people anyway. In this post, I tried to give some different views to this topic. I personally am strongly opposed to Racism, or rather negative prejudices in general, but I think that doesn't have to be connected to the terms patriotism and nationalism. Loving one thing should not make you hate another, although many small minded people do exactly that. TLDR: I think we just gotta love'em all, and cheering for HasuObs shouldn't stop me from cheering for WhiteRa! Edit: One aspect of this topic that I didnt make too clear is that some organisations and people often use patriotism for their means. I despise this whole-heartedly. Patriotism as I described it can be a good thing, or at least not a bad thing, as long as it stays on a personal level and isnt used by a "movement" or gets political. And I should probably stop here before I double the length of my post again
All i can say is just stop being apologetic about Germany's nazi past. Unless you are 80+ old or something you have nothing to be afraid of. It saddens me to see Germans obviously worried that if they say something patriotic they might be called nazis. Unless fascism is a genetic disease of course. So yeah, wave that flag proudly.
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I do not for the life of me understand why someone can feel attachement to a country. Family, yes. But a country of millions? Why? Because some people who achieved some things at one point in time also lived within those same artificial borders, and you feel proud of their achievement and consider them to be a part of you for having been within those same artificial borders during that achievement/their life?
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On November 25 2011 00:59 HoldenR wrote:
I do not for the life of me understand why someone can feel attachement to a country. Family, yes. But a country of millions? Why? Because some people who achieved some things at one point in time also lived within those same artificial borders, and you feel proud of their achievement and consider them to be a part of you for having been within those same artificial borders during that achievement/their life?
Culture
Language
Ethics
Tendencies
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On November 25 2011 00:59 HoldenR wrote:
I do not for the life of me understand why someone can feel attachement to a country. Family, yes. But a country of millions? Why? Because some people who achieved some things at one point in time also lived within those same artificial borders, and you feel proud of their achievement and consider them to be a part of you for having been within those same artificial borders during that achievement/their life?
Do you feel proud of Starcraft and the community, because of the achievements of some progamers and organizers, despite having no personal contribution to its growth?
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On November 25 2011 01:06 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 00:59 HoldenR wrote:
I do not for the life of me understand why someone can feel attachement to a country. Family, yes. But a country of millions? Why? Because some people who achieved some things at one point in time also lived within those same artificial borders, and you feel proud of their achievement and consider them to be a part of you for having been within those same artificial borders during that achievement/their life? Do you feel proud of Starcraft and the community, because of the achievements of some progamers and organizers, despite having no personal contribution to its growth?
irrelevant?
we decided to play starcraft, i did not decide to be french.
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Learned patriotism sort of reminds me of a video I saw on youtube (thank you yugioh abridged). "We'll use your old catch phrase, change it up a little, and market it as something new." "That sounds completely underhanded and insulting". "I call it good marketing". "Now I think it sounds great!"
What we learn is to love our country, and this causes us to love our country more than other countries. However, because this is hidden beneath patriotism, even though we know it is wrong to do this, we do it anyways.
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On November 25 2011 01:01 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 00:59 HoldenR wrote:
I do not for the life of me understand why someone can feel attachement to a country. Family, yes. But a country of millions? Why? Because some people who achieved some things at one point in time also lived within those same artificial borders, and you feel proud of their achievement and consider them to be a part of you for having been within those same artificial borders during that achievement/their life? Culture Language Ethics Tendencies
If this is true for country then why not religion? If religion, then why not race? If race, then why not gender?
None of those are considered good things, but apparently nationalism (and to an extent religious devotion also) is encouraged and even indoctrinated.
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Patriotism is mostly a tool used by political parties to create a sense of solidarity and unity amongst a group of people that ordinarily have nearly nothing in common (other than geographic location), and using that unity to create their voting bloc.
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Im proud of /love my country when it does something to actually be proud of, and i don't mean winning some sporting event etc. I mean social progress, equality of women etc.
However i do feel like the blind, no matter what patriotism (sry americans, but i find this type to me more comming amongst you guys than most others) is purely idiotic. Its basically religeon... "My country is the best in the world!" "Why?" "Because it is!
Its the same circular argument as "God exists"... "How do you know?"... "Because it says so in the Bible"... "And what makes everything in the Bible true?"... "Because god wrote it of course!!!"
My point is, never love/believe/respect anything without a reason. It makes you a blind ass cheap who doesnt wanna stick out of the crowd.
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On November 25 2011 01:19 Toxi78 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 01:06 Dfgj wrote:On November 25 2011 00:59 HoldenR wrote:
I do not for the life of me understand why someone can feel attachement to a country. Family, yes. But a country of millions? Why? Because some people who achieved some things at one point in time also lived within those same artificial borders, and you feel proud of their achievement and consider them to be a part of you for having been within those same artificial borders during that achievement/their life? Do you feel proud of Starcraft and the community, because of the achievements of some progamers and organizers, despite having no personal contribution to its growth? irrelevant? we decided to play starcraft, i did not decide to be french.
Not irrelevant.
People find themselves a part of a community and take pride in what their community has done. How they came to that community is unimportant, unless you suggest that 'choosing' a community somehow grants you a more valid claim to the achievements of its members. Furthermore, you can decide your nationality (far more than, say, ethnicity), so you've no real point.
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Patriotism is a part of pride being in a community or group. Racism is what you think of a people based on where they're from
For example+ Show Spoiler + the anti chinese stuff on TL
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People are so paranoid. Assosiating racism with patriotism is non sense.
Yeah I feel proud about what my parents/grandpas achieved.
Yeah, I feel proud, not as much as from my parents, of stuff my country has done.
I'm also more tolerant and care more about my family (relatives, and then country) than others.
No racism.
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about as far as it goes for me is that i'm glad i was born in California and not most other places. who wouldn't?
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Since the OP is from China, allow me to put it in to a relate-able perspective,
Patriotism-Pride in being Being Chinese and honoring traditions and heritages and knowing, taking pride in its history
Racism-Hating Japanese people
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EPT
