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Patriotism causes one country to tear itself apart.
The idea being that if some people are "unpatriotic" then they are actively going against the ideals of your country. They are undermining your values. The Germans were a very patriotic people. And what people don't understand is that long before Germans ever said "Kill the Jews" they were saying "Jews are not German." That was the slander they were using. German Jews fighting for Germany in WWI still were considered non-German for their Jewish heritage.
Similarly, when you say that Christianity is American, it is implying that non-Christians aren't as "American." When Sarah Palin was talking about "Real America," it actually was very reminiscent of this kind of vicious patriotism.
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On November 24 2011 08:37 TheLOLas wrote:
Racism is about being cruel to other people for stupid reasons.
Patriotism is about being proud for your country.
Two very different things.
Seriously?
'being cruel to other people for stupid reasons'? Did you find that in a dictionary?
Here you go: "Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination."
Basically patriotism = your country is good/ the best. Now as "good / the best" is a comparison, this often means that the rest of the world is 'bad' - thus racism.
Say you have a group of 10 people. One of them says he's the best person of them all. This means he thinks the rest of the group is lesser than him. Is this concept really that hard to grasp?
It's far from two very different things.
On November 24 2011 08:51 DoubleReed wrote:
Patriotism causes one country to tear itself apart.
The idea being that if some people are "unpatriotic" then they are actively going against the ideals of your country. They are undermining your values. The Germans were a very patriotic people. And what people don't understand is that long before Germans ever said "Kill the Jews" they were saying "Jews are not German." That was the slander they were using. German Jews fighting for Germany in WWI still were considered non-German for their Jewish heritage.
Similarly, when you say that Christianity is American, it is implying that non-Christians aren't as "American." When Sarah Palin was talking about "Real America," it actually was very reminiscent of this kind of vicious patriotism.
Well the part when it gets complicated is that Hitler was from Austria, and he didn't even fulfil any of the racial traits he was looking for >_>
Also he was a dictator, and he only had like a 20% support at the very most when trying to get elected, but iirc he got chosen in the complicated system they used as they thought he'd be a quite nonplus leader who wouldn't change much.
Totally going of memory from high school here, so some facts might be off 
I completely agree with you though.
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I love my country, not because I was born here, but because of what it is and what it has given me. My love is also conditional. I like many countries but the only country other than my own which I love is the United States. I conditionally love the United States for what it is, not because of where I am born or where I live. I'm not proud of my country, because my countries achievments (which aren't actually my countries achievments but instead a collective of individual achievements) are not my own. I don't think anyone is inherently good or bad based on where they are born. How is my patriotism anything like racism at all? If it's not, then the OP's claim can't be true.
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Thats the point, patriotism doesnt necessarily infer being "the best".
You can be proud of something, even if someone, somewhere else happened to do it better. American patriotism doesnt allow for this to be a possibility though. You must yell that youre the best nation in the history of this planet at the top of your lungs, without having to backup or assess that claim whatsoever,
As for how it relates to racism, your current president is a perfect example. The same whackos in your country that tow this line, are the ones that made Obama out to be les american, even going so far as to try to prove hes from a different country.
Your country just confuses me. Last night, you had an african american standing on a stage, infront of an audience, on national tv, say that muslims should be profiled and subject to more thorough searches than anyone else. I guess hes quickly forgotten his roots. All this to "protect the greatest nation in the world". Its baffling.
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On November 24 2011 08:54 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 08:37 TheLOLas wrote:
Racism is about being cruel to other people for stupid reasons.
Patriotism is about being proud for your country.
Two very different things. Seriously? 'being cruel to other people for stupid reasons'? Did you find that in a dictionary? Here you go: "Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination." Basically patriotism = your country is good/ the best. Now as "good / the best" is a comparison, this often means that the rest of the world is 'bad' - thus racism. Say you have a group of 10 people. One of them says he's the best person of them all. This means he thinks the rest of the group is lesser than him. Is this concept really that hard to grasp? It's far from two very different things. Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 08:51 DoubleReed wrote:
Patriotism causes one country to tear itself apart.
The idea being that if some people are "unpatriotic" then they are actively going against the ideals of your country. They are undermining your values. The Germans were a very patriotic people. And what people don't understand is that long before Germans ever said "Kill the Jews" they were saying "Jews are not German." That was the slander they were using. German Jews fighting for Germany in WWI still were considered non-German for their Jewish heritage.
Similarly, when you say that Christianity is American, it is implying that non-Christians aren't as "American." When Sarah Palin was talking about "Real America," it actually was very reminiscent of this kind of vicious patriotism. Well the part when it gets complicated is that Hitler was from Austria, and he didn't even fulfil any of the racial traits he was looking for >_> Also he was a dictator, and he only had like a 20% support at the very most when trying to get elected, but iirc he got chosen in the complicated system they used as they thought he'd be a quite nonplus leader who wouldn't change much. Totally going of memory from high school here, so some facts might be off I completely agree with you though.
It's funny you point out someone using a made up definition and give them a dictionary definition then immediately proceed to make up your own definition of another word.
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Does anyone else find it strange that so many people are arguing vehemently against patriotism, and yet over 90% of posters choose to display a nation next to their name?
I mean what is the reason for displaying your country? I can't really come up with a reason, except that people desire to identify themselves that way.
On November 24 2011 09:09 OsoVega wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 08:54 Euronyme wrote:On November 24 2011 08:37 TheLOLas wrote:
Racism is about being cruel to other people for stupid reasons.
Patriotism is about being proud for your country.
Two very different things. Seriously? 'being cruel to other people for stupid reasons'? Did you find that in a dictionary? Here you go: "Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination." Basically patriotism = your country is good/ the best. Now as "good / the best" is a comparison, this often means that the rest of the world is 'bad' - thus racism. Say you have a group of 10 people. One of them says he's the best person of them all. This means he thinks the rest of the group is lesser than him. Is this concept really that hard to grasp? It's far from two very different things. On November 24 2011 08:51 DoubleReed wrote:
Patriotism causes one country to tear itself apart.
The idea being that if some people are "unpatriotic" then they are actively going against the ideals of your country. They are undermining your values. The Germans were a very patriotic people. And what people don't understand is that long before Germans ever said "Kill the Jews" they were saying "Jews are not German." That was the slander they were using. German Jews fighting for Germany in WWI still were considered non-German for their Jewish heritage.
Similarly, when you say that Christianity is American, it is implying that non-Christians aren't as "American." When Sarah Palin was talking about "Real America," it actually was very reminiscent of this kind of vicious patriotism. Well the part when it gets complicated is that Hitler was from Austria, and he didn't even fulfil any of the racial traits he was looking for >_> Also he was a dictator, and he only had like a 20% support at the very most when trying to get elected, but iirc he got chosen in the complicated system they used as they thought he'd be a quite nonplus leader who wouldn't change much. Totally going of memory from high school here, so some facts might be off I completely agree with you though. It's funny you point out someone using a made up definition and give them a dictionary definition then immediately proceed to make up your own definition of another word.
Also I agree that was pretty funny when I read it. 
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Can I just please ask for a less-ambiguous OP. It is not Patriotism and Racism. It is Nationalism and Racism. Just to clarify
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On November 24 2011 09:12 Juddas wrote:
Can I just please ask for a less-ambiguous OP. It is not Patriotism and Racism. It is Nationalism and Racism. Just to clarify
That wouldn't be controversial enough.
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Erm the issue is that Patriotism can quickly turn into ethnocentrism, the tendency to view your own race and that race's worldviews, laws, ideas, culture as the norm, which in turn becomes racism. I always..ALWAYS argue against nationalism and patriotism. And I assure you my friends and I are an argumentative bunch on a very broad but obscure range of topics, and nobody now questions my claim that nationalism and patriotism are no good for anything, which is quite a feat.
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when has nationalism ever been good for the world?
frankily I do not give a shit about government and systems of canada. I am thankful to have freedom and be in a wonderful part of the world.
but..
I would never fight for this country. I owe no allegiance to any flag but to people and humanity as a whole. Borders and governments are not something worth risking my life.
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On November 24 2011 09:32 Destro wrote:
I would never fight for this country. I owe no allegiance to any flag but to people and humanity as a whole. Borders and governments are not something worth risking my life.
This is all well and good...
But I think we should remember that from an evolutionary standpoint, most of the people who felt this way would eventually be killed off or dominated by the people who think in the opposite way. There is a reason humans evolved to feel tribalistic emotions.
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On November 24 2011 03:45 perestain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:36 forsooth wrote:
I think you're mixing up patriotism with nationalism. Nationalism overlaps into patriotism, but patriotism is more or less loving your homeland and being willing to make sacrifices for it. It doesn't have to include feelings of superiority over other countries at all. That's more what nationalism is.
Personally I'm no patriot, nor would I encourage anyone to be one, but I don't take issue with other Americans that love America and are willing to serve in the armed forces and such so long as they don't carry it over into thinking that being American somehow makes the better than anyone else. I understand where you are coming from and it is a very practical way of thinking. But to me there is still the dilemma that it makes no sense to serve with your life for something if you dont think it is better than something else. Somehow, Nietzsche's rejection of eros comes to mind here: "Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too." Although the god part always left me a bit confused i must admit.
To frame it a bit differently, you could think of it like you would your own family vs your neighbors. I think it's pretty reasonable to state that most people would be willing to put it all on the line for their own kids or spouse or parents, but that the same couldn't be said for those people who live across the street that may even be your friends. It has nothing to do with thinking that you and your family are somehow inherently superior as human beings, but they have more value to you because they're a huge part of your world and your life. Somewhat similarly, the country you live in has a greater value to you than other ones because it's your home, the place you grew up in, and likely the place you want to stay in. For some, that makes it worth actively working to protect, even in a fashion that can put them in harm's way. Personally, I don't take issue with that even though I don't feel the same way.
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Calling patriotism the same thing is racism, is mistaking patriotism with Ethnocentrism. There's nothing racist about loving your country....
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I love my country,doesn't that make me a patriot?And No i'm not a racist/homophobe/xenophobe.
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I can love a song without believing that every other song is trash.
I can love a picture without believing that every other picture in the world is worse than this picture.
I can love a movie without claiming that this movie is the best movie in the world.
I can love my country without believing that every other country is worse.
Patriotism and nationalism is not inherently bad. there is a difference between loving your country, and believing it is better than other countries.
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"Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” George Bernard Shaw
That pretty much sums up patriotism to me. That said I dont necessarily think its a bad thing. While Patriotism and racism can certainly be born from one another, they can be mutually exclusive.
Patriotism is a love for your country, extreme patriotism can lead to racism. But being a patriot doesnt necessarily mean your a racist no more than being a racist makes you a patriot.
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But as a keynote, everytime patriotism happens, it always take advantage of the civilian population and anti-intellectualism and never involves the academic community ever (because they know better).
Your perspective doesn't go back much farther than a hundred years then...
Also the idea that patriotism "always take advantage of the civilian population and anti-intellectualism" is pretty silly. Always? Takes advantage of the populace? Anti-intellectualism? Where do these buzz words and catch phrases come from?
Does anyone else find it strange that so many people are arguing vehemently against patriotism, and yet over 90% of posters choose to display a nation next to their name?
I find it strange that many of them vehemently denounce national patriotism while they come right out and say they're intensely patriotic for "humanity."
"Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” George Bernard Shaw
That's nationalism, as the Fabian Society member Mr. Shaw knew full well when he made that quote. International socialism has no place for patriotism of course.
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People always(especially in Sweden) likes to call patriots racists and vice versa. I dont feel it's the same even tho it's more likely that a racist is also a patriot than the other way around.
I love my country, sure I don't love each and every fucking tree or rock but I do want my country to be well and do well and look well and perform well. That is patriotism, I dont hate immigrants, I have several mates from other places around the world. Funny thing is they are all proud of where they are from, but if a swedish person does the same he/she is a racist. I don't get that, and it's mostly the uneducated idiots that have this opinion, they shout racist and such to everything cuz they are SO afraid of being called racist themselves.
I mean patriotism is a lot of things, even watching a fotball match and see your country doing well and winning and getting excited is patriotism, people tend to forget.
But as usual the racists and nazis ruin everything for everyone. Or rather people LET them, I mean if we just ignore them and not let them ¨"take" shit and make it their own they will not be noticeable.
All in all I think Sweeds need to stay proud of our country and where we live and work. This is our country, a bit of patriotism is not a bad thing. UNless you like to scream Sieg Heil aswell. Then gtfo =)
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On November 24 2011 08:54 Euronyme wrote:
Basically patriotism = your country is good/ the best. Now as "good / the best" is a comparison, this often means that the rest of the world is 'bad' - thus racism.
Did you find that in a dictionary? I've searched up a couple of definitions of patriotism and nothing in there says anything about good, bad, or the best.
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On November 24 2011 00:55 Luepert wrote:
Black people and white people can both love the same country. Both be patriots.
To be a patriot, you only have to love your own country, you dont have to hate other poeple's.
This. It's fine to be patriotic, but a lot of people seem to equate loving their own country to hating other peoples'.
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