EPTPatriotism and Racism - Page 10
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
Yeah, you are supposed to love and defend your family. That obv makes you racist. | ||
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Tensai176
Canada2061 Posts
On November 24 2011 07:58 liberal wrote: DeepElem, I've been trying to explain this point to people since about page 2. It's been largely ignored in favor of the people spamming "it's not a better country just cuz you were born in it! herp." Oh well, I see your point, and I agree with you. People get really caught up in race and nations, but the same feeling and motivation is pervasive whether it's race, nation, sports team, clique, political party, religion... It's all the same. And some of the people who are so horrified by patriotism seem to find nothing wrong with implying a political party is evil. You can justify a connection with locality without even using evolution. Just the basic fact that you were born here means you grew up with the same ideals with somebody else and THAT itself is something that connects you to another person. It's not just about being proud of where you're born, but what that particular location stands for. e.g. Wearing a Canadian flag for me means that I'm proud of what my country has accomplished and what it means to the world, and if someone else is from Canada, more likely than not, we see things in similar ways. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:13 TheBomb wrote: I don't see how patriotism is bad. The globalists will have you believe we need collectivism, but that is something to stay as far away from as possible. I mean patriotism is also deeply rooted with freedom and liberty so if anyone says patriotism is bad then you better know the guy is either misguided or a bad person. :O Deeply rooted in your head at least... who guides you? | ||
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Mallidon
Scotland557 Posts
On November 24 2011 03:07 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I think Racism is a lot closer to Nationalism than Patriotism, but maybe patriotism inevitably leads to them, I wouldn't know because I'm not the least bit patriotic. On November 24 2011 00:56 Aeres wrote: Patriotism is only an issue when it turns into nationalism. On November 24 2011 02:46 rhmiller907 wrote: The word your thinking of is nationalism, nationalism is very similar to racism. Being proud of where your from doesn't mean your judging other unjustly. Wikipedia has a good little statement about 'Civic Nationalism'. (Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism). + Show Spoiler + Civic nationalism (also known as liberal nationalism) defines the nation as an association of people who identify themselves as belonging to the nation, who have equal and shared political rights, and allegiance to similar political procedures.[25] According to the principles of civic nationalism, the nation is not based on common ethnic ancestry, but is a political entity whose core identity is not ethnicity. This civic concept of nationalism is exemplified by Ernest Renan in his lecture in 1882 "What is a Nation?", where he defined the nation as a "daily referendum" (frequently translated 'daily plebiscite") dependent on the will of its people to continue living together". What this basically means is that certain types of Nationalism are based around forming government with the consensus of the people within a certain area or nation. Nationalism can be a force for freedom, people wanting to be free from what they perceive as an oppressive or unfair form of government within their own 'nation', or from foreign government. For example, Ghandi. He was a proponent of Indian independence, and thus, he was an 'Anti-Colonial' Nationalist. Nationalism can also be used as a form of defence or defiance against an invading power (see any war ever fought), Simo Häyhä could be described as a nationalist. He fought to help save his nation from the invading Russians during WWII. Most of the people who fought during 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 wars fought for their nation and for freedom and a lot of propaganda at the time was 'Nationalist'. + Show Spoiler + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Kitchener_Wants_You Many people frown upon the concept of Nationalism due to examples such as the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party or the British Nationalist Party. Both do exhibit very strong views and are examples of 'Nationalism' but only one branch 'Ultra nationalism'. This is a very different concept to Nationalism as a whole. Edit - Last paragraph didn't make as much sense  | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
Apart from a very superficial level, people simply don't give a fuck. The apathy is widespread almost everywhere, and very few people have motivation and interest to change and fix things that are wrong in their respective countries. Some parts of the world are dominated by a culture of self-serving greed, others by oppressive ideologies or religion. Patriotism is a concept which involves ideals and self-sacrifice. Not waving flags at a football game or in forum debates. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
however i don't consider myself a "patriot" whatsoever. it seems childish, like cheering for your favorite football team or something. we have football for that. it's dangerous to boil it down to a simplistic statement like "you're for or against us! love it or leave it!" that's all a bunch of BS. you can feel comfortable about your place in the world without feeling superior about it, or defensive about it. there's 7 billion people on this planet and the vast majority of them do not live in my country. | ||
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3clipse
Canada2555 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
You can justify a connection with locality without even using evolution. Just the basic fact that you were born here means you grew up with the same ideals with somebody else and THAT itself is something that connects you to another person. It's not just about being proud of where you're born, but what that particular location stands for. e.g. Wearing a Canadian flag for me means that I'm proud of what my country has accomplished and what it means to the world, and if someone else is from Canada, more likely than not, we see things in similar ways. That's partially evolution too, markings to identify members of "our" group when not in our home territory, or for display. The deeper meanings we attach to it are not caused by evolution though, you are right about that. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
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screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
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bonedriven
258 Posts
AP (Anti-Patriotism): It's not right because loving your country simply because you were born in it is not rational. P1: I love it not because I was born in it. It's an instinct (evolution heritage) that people tend to be protective to their neighborhood. P2: That I love my own country doesn't mean I hate others. AP: P means you love your country more than other countries. So you have the tend to differentiate, which is the same with racism. AP: Nietzsche:"Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too." Taoism:"The greatest love seems indifferent." (This reminds me of Buddhism, which claims that one should treat everything in this world equally, and cut off all your relationship with your relatives, including parents, children, brothers and sisters, because love is the beginning of suffering.) Still, patriotism makes no sense to me at all, but I do realize that perhaps, for most of us, it's really hard to get rid of it, as it is said to be a psychology developed by evolutionary. Otherwise, why do a guy like me that thinks patriotism is full of shit, still feels the rush of blood when watching Bruce Lee beating the shit out the Japanese for they had labeled us Chinese as "Sick Asian" in the movie. I know it's stupid but I do feel it. | ||
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Asshat
593 Posts
On November 24 2011 11:59 Dfgj wrote: Nationality and race aren't the same thing. People tend to always associate a race with a nationality though. Usually in a very shallow, stereotypical, appearance based manner. Though that tends to be factual for most nations. Countries like the USA and Brazil who were hubs of immigration/slavery in their early years are an exception. Almost everywhere else there is an ethnicity that's dominant. | ||
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valheru
Australia966 Posts
For example I am proud to be from Australia I think that on a relative scale it is a well governed country with good people. But countries such as Sweden and Norway have also earned my respect to the same degree if not more so. Depending on how one is defining patriotism I may be a patriot but I also think other countries may be ''better''. Thinking that your country is the best just because you happened to be born in it is just stupid and that crap really gets on my nerves. | ||
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Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.n0.se/f/n/3d9d8_True_shit.jpg) | ||
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Aldehyde
Sweden939 Posts
On November 24 2011 00:56 Aeres wrote: Patriotism is only an issue when it turns into nationalism. Nationalism is just another word for patriotism. Sure, it's become used for describing "racist patriotism" but it shouldn't be. | ||
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frontliner2
Netherlands844 Posts
How is this a bad thing?  Trolling hereOT: In europe nationalism is rising again (crisis) and it may turn ugly at some point. NeoNazi's are rising in Germany and Russia like never before and politics in every country is making a swing to far right overall. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
That said, I could continue but I doubt it's anything not heard before. To sum up my answer to the thread though, as bankrupt as deriving your sense of pride from patriotism is, it's not racist. The reason for this is simple enough, often more than one racial group occupies a given country, and hating those other racial groups would be racist, while 'loving' your country is not. If I love dogs, it doesn't also mean I hate cats. | ||
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Mallidon
Scotland557 Posts
On November 24 2011 21:06 Aldehyde wrote: Nationalism is just another word for patriotism. Sure, it's become used for describing "racist patriotism" but it shouldn't be. Looks like you just did a 'TL:DR' version of my post :D My overly big post = this, basically. | ||
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