EPTPatriotism and Racism - Page 8
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iamahydralisk
United States813 Posts
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:21 blackone wrote: I think you're wrong. Somebody from Seattle most likely didn't "choose" the Mariners. It's the only Baseball team he can see playing, because all the other ones are hundreds or thousands of miles away. And even if he only watches them on TV, he can see all mariners games and only some of the other games. Plus everyone else is a Mariners fan around him. (Almost) nobody honestly think that their local sports team is superior because they are from his town, whereas shit tons of people think that their country is better than everyone elses. that's the whole point lol. The person from seattle did choose the mariners because of the ease of games, the people around him, and the attitude towards the team. You can't say that a fan of a team doesn't believe in at least the possibility of that team being the best. Why would someone from a country like Columbia, Nigeria, Madagascar, Saudi arabia, Mongolia, etc etc think that their country is better than everyone elses... I don't think that americas health care system or public education or public health is better than everyone elses. Someone from South Dakota most likely doesn't think that they have the best weather in the world, but they may say that they love it because it is what they know. The Mariners fan did choose the Mariners, the reasoning behind his choice are not based on the teams chance of winning everything but because it is what he is told he should choose. | ||
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NKsc2
Sweden133 Posts
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henkel
Netherlands146 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:30 Euronyme wrote: Well support based on proximity isn't exactly rational. mmmm wasn't that what i said? EDIT: hehe mistakes are merely human, go to bed dude  | ||
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Resonance
Canada113 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:11 Velr wrote: Racists/Nationalists LOVE to declare themselves as Patriots. Some self declared Patriots themselves do not even realise that they are actually just racist idiots. Thats the only real problem with "Patriotism" but a REALLY big one. Patriotism itself wouldn't be bad (just stupid/pointless/unreasonable), the people that like to call themselves "Patriots" often are... I consider myself a patriot, but I'm not racist. I merely defend much of my country's decisions. Sure, a large number of people are likely to CLAIM they are patriots just to cover up their racism, but not all self-proclaimed patriots are that way. Nationalism and patriotism do not go hand in hand with racism. Many people in Canada are patriotic and love their country, and not all of them are of the same race. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
haha yeah that's exactly what you said. Sorry I'm getting tired. I was supposed to quote another person :/ Sorry | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
Well support based on proximity isn't exactly rational. Well, yes, it is, from an evolutionary view. A view that is still valid for practical reasons... and of course we need to realize how complex and little understood the human psyche really is. There's no "real" reason to identify with a nearby sports team except for the psychological and emotional need humans have to identify themselves as part of a group which benefits them physically or emotionally. Which is a very real need indeed. People identify with and support groups they think - maybe believe is a better word - will bring them a benefit in return for the support. A big part of that benefit is just being part of a group itself. All this stuff goes back to evolution, we wear jerseys of our team to identify members of "our" group, or we participate in neighborhood/town/county/state (or province)/national events like parades and fairs and holidays, fly flags, or we find other groups to fill that need for us, it can be almost any group representing anything. | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
It was mainly used in the post-royalty world to achieve a better cohesion of the people within a country because religion ended up not caring anymore about borders. When strenghten, this concept become very useful for better communication and agreements between the authority and the rest of the population, because it give the impression that we all form one entity. This concept is as pointed by the OP can become quite dangerous when the feeling is exacerbated and people forget that in the end we are all human that randomly spawned in random places on earth and nothing make this place better than anywhere else. In my opinion, this is just a political tool that have some failures. I totally support Sweden on their point of view on the question. I've lived in enough countries to realise that patriotism don't lead to anything morally good in the end. Be proud to be a human on earth, that's already cool enough on it's own. I guess and hope the day we'll end using the patriotism concept will be the day we'll care about the "third world" | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
Patriotism is a very recent concept in our history. It was mainly used in the post-royalty world to achieve a better cohesion of the people within a country because religion ended up not caring anymore about borders. When strenghten, this concept become very useful for better communication and agreements between the authority and the rest of the population, because it give the impression that we all form one entity. This concept is as pointed by the OP can become quite dangerous when the feeling is exacerbated and people forget that in the end we are all human that randomly spawned in random places on earth and nothing make this place better than anywhere else. In my opinion, this is just a political tool that have some failures. I totally support Sweden on their point of view on the question. I've lived in enough countries to realise that patriotism don't lead to anything morally good in the end. Be proud to be a human on earth, that's already cool enough on it's own. I guess and hope the day we'll end using the patriotism concept will be the day we'll care about the "third world" That's too simplistic for me I guess | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:56 Diks wrote: Patriotism is a very recent concept in our history. It was mainly used in the post-royalty world to achieve a better cohesion of the people within a country because religion ended up not caring anymore about borders. When strenghten, this concept become very useful for better communication and agreements between the authority and the rest of the population, because it give the impression that we all form one entity. This concept is as pointed by the OP can become quite dangerous when the feeling is exacerbated and people forget that in the end we are all human that randomly spawned in random places on earth and nothing make this place better than anywhere else. In my opinion, this is just a political tool that have some failures. I totally support Sweden on their point of view on the question. I've lived in enough countries to realise that patriotism don't lead to anything morally good in the end. Be proud to be a human on earth, that's already cool enough on it's own. I guess and hope the day we'll end using the patriotism concept will be the day we'll care about the "third world" Patriotism is not recent National Patriotism v. Local Patriotism (USA v. Buffalo, New York or France v. Paris) That is a recent concept. | ||
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sheaRZerg
United States613 Posts
I always assumed it was just a term used by people in the united states to make our own nationalism sound less bad. (The word nationalism, as it is used in american history classes, gets a bad rap as the primary cause of WWI (and arguably others as well). Edit: regardless of how the term is used elsewhere...that is pretty much my view on its use in the states. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On November 24 2011 07:32 Krikkitone wrote: Patriotism is not recent National Patriotism v. Local Patriotism (USA v. Buffalo, New York or France v. Paris) That is a recent concept. I always thought "patriotism" or whatever passed as "patriotism" way back when followed a historical trend of small-to-large, not the other way around. Starting from tribes to villages to cities to regions to countries to...well, I guess we're seeing universal "patriotism", now...we're starting to increasingly identify, not as "British" or "Chinese" or whatever, but as "human". Globalism, I think, or maybe world citizenship. In short: I find it hard to believe that local patriotism is newer than national patriotism. | ||
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liberal
1116 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:52 DeepElemBlues wrote: Well, yes, it is, from an evolutionary view. A view that is still valid for practical reasons... and of course we need to realize how complex and little understood the human psyche really is. There's no "real" reason to identify with a nearby sports team except for the psychological and emotional need humans have to identify themselves as part of a group which benefits them physically or emotionally. Which is a very real need indeed. People identify with and support groups they think - maybe believe is a better word - will bring them a benefit in return for the support. A big part of that benefit is just being part of a group itself. All this stuff goes back to evolution, we wear jerseys of our team to identify members of "our" group, or we participate in neighborhood/town/county/state (or province)/national events like parades and fairs and holidays, fly flags, or we find other groups to fill that need for us, it can be almost any group representing anything. DeepElem, I've been trying to explain this point to people since about page 2. It's been largely ignored in favor of the people spamming "it's not a better country just cuz you were born in it! herp." Oh well, I see your point, and I agree with you. People get really caught up in race and nations, but the same feeling and motivation is pervasive whether it's race, nation, sports team, clique, political party, religion... It's all the same. And some of the people who are so horrified by patriotism seem to find nothing wrong with implying a political party is evil. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On November 24 2011 07:42 sheaRZerg wrote: Is patriotism a term used often in other countries? I was totally unaware. I always assumed it was just a term used by people in the united states to make our own nationalism sound less bad. (The word nationalism, as it is used in american history classes, gets a bad rap as the primary cause of WWI (and arguably others as well). Edit: regardless of how the term is used elsewhere...that is pretty much my view on its use in the states. 1590s, "compatriot," from M.Fr. patriote (15c.), from L.L. patriota "fellow-countryman" (6c.), from Gk. patriotes "fellow countryman," from patrios "of one's fathers," patris "fatherland," from pater (gen. patros) "father," with -otes, suffix expressing state or condition. Meaning "loyal and disinterested supporter of one's country" is attested from c.1600, but became an ironic term of ridicule or abuse from mid-18c. in England, so that Johnson, who at first defined it as "one whose ruling passion is the love of his country," in his fourth edition added, "It is sometimes used for a factious disturber of the government." On November 24 2011 07:50 acker wrote: I always thought "patriotism" or whatever passed as "patriotism" way back when followed a historical trend of small-to-large, not the other way around. Starting from tribes to villages to cities to regions to countries to...well, I guess we're seeing universal "patriotism", now...we're starting to increasingly identify, not as "British" or "Chinese" or whatever, but as "human". Globalism, I think, or maybe world citizenship. In short: I find it hard to believe that local patriotism is newer than national patriotism. Iirc that's how it is though. Atleast in Europe. People didn't care which country they lived in, and often didn't even know. Kings didn't care what country they ruled, as long as they were entitled to land and servants. Two kings could litterally switch territory completely during wars, and land was traded around liberally among the royalty of Europe. Nationalism is a fairly new idea that popped up during the 18th century. | ||
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Xenocryst
United States521 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:01 WTFZerg wrote: "Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is I'm not. I honestly just feel that America's the best country and all the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism." Can't remember what the hell this quote is from but a friend of mine linked it to me not too long ago and I thought it was pretty neat. Are you really telling us that when people say "be patriotic" they mean to think we're better than everyone else?? what a joke | ||
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LolitsPing
United States285 Posts
You see this in every country, especially in the US due to anti-intellectualism being very prevalent, and hatred onto a group of people is the best way to unite people together. We all saw this in 9/11 where everyone just went "FUCK MUSLIMS!!" blah blah blah as well as when bin Laden died and the construction of the mosque just blocks from Ground Zero (or whatever the name of the memorial is right now, yes the name keeps changing, this is no disrespect towards the memorial), as well as other moments in history such as: - Religious wars (for Christianity! and all that jazz in the crusades) - Class wars (Any major social revolution, including French, British, Occupy Wall Street...) - Race wars (Civil Rights Movement, Apartheid in South Africa, etc.) But as a keynote, everytime patriotism happens, it always take advantage of the civilian population and anti-intellectualism and never involves the academic community ever (because they know better). | ||
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Focuspants
Canada780 Posts
Your people have been brainwashed to believe all of this. You sing songs about americas greatness between innings of baseball games, at school assemblies, etc... It makes the government be relatively immune to scrutiny. Being humble is seen as being weak, and everyone rallies behind this stubborn way of taking part in the world. It has given you a bad wrap around the world, because it comes off as entirely arrogant. There are actually vry few things the US is the best in the world at. In fact, you have more poor people that are jobless and broke, than the entire population of Canada. Patriotism is great when all it is, is being proud of the country youre from. However, when it takes on an agenda, and becomes so powerful that any sort of talk about not being the best is seen as being "unamerican", it is far more damaging than helpful. | ||
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TheLOLas
United States646 Posts
Patriotism is about being proud for your country. Two very different things. | ||
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
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