EPTPatriotism and Racism - Page 6
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imr.e
112 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
i love my luck, you cant force me to share it with you just because "you" are humans too. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:01 WTFZerg wrote: "Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is I'm not. I honestly just feel that America's the best country and all the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism." Can't remember what the hell this quote is from but a friend of mine linked it to me not too long ago and I thought it was pretty neat. I thought you were about to make fun of the quote you posted as I was reading it. Apparently not. Anyway, patriotism is mostly stupid, but I wouldn't claim to be entirely rational myself so in some ways I'm patriotic. I don't think that at that sort of level it is remotely harmful - support your team or be proud that you happen to have been born in the same geo-political location as someone else 500 years ago - fine, no big deal. The problems arise when you make value judgements based on that illogical bias on things that actually matter. If you judge the actions (or potential actions) of your country differently from others then you are doing something utterly terrible and are part of the basis of many of the world's problems. The moment you think you can justify something by saying it's "us" doing it is the moment you've departed from acceptable illogical thought. To answer the original point, patriotism can be used to separate "us" from "them" and that can be bad and is largely the equivalent of racism, but I don't think they're direct equivalents or nearly so clear cut in terms of negative impact on the world. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On November 24 2011 00:50 bonedriven wrote: It's nice to start the topic on TL as we have people from all over the world here. I've been taught since elementary school that Patriatism is a super good thing, and everyone should love his country and devote himself (even life) to his country. Later, I only had a feeling that I actually didn't love my country that much. Then one day, I thought Patriotism is full of shit. Today, I suddenly get this idea, that Patriotism is a damn same thing with Racism by nature. TLers, do you think patriotism is right? Is rooting for the player from your own country considered as out of patriotism? Welcome. Let the Tao (http://www.edepot.com/tao4.html) be your teacher, it has taught me more than 12 years of school and college education could: 18 When the great Tao is forgotten, goodness and piety appear. When the body's intelligence declines, cleverness and knowledge step forth. When there is no peace in the family, filial piety begins. When the country falls into chaos, patriotism is born. What does this mean? I honestly can't explain it as well as the Tao: 2 When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly. When people see some things as good, other things become bad. Being and non-being create each other. Difficult and easy support each other. Long and short define each other. High and low depend on each other. Before and after follow each other. Therefore the Master acts without doing anything and teaches without saying anything. Things arise and she lets them come; things disappear and she lets them go. She has but doesn't possess, acts but doesn't expect. When her work is done, she forgets it. That is why it lasts forever. 38 The Master doesn't try to be powerful: thus he is truly powerful. The ordinary man keeps reaching for power; thus he never has enough. The Master does nothing, yet he leaves nothing undone. The ordinary man is always doing things, yet many more are left to be done. The kind man does something, yet something remains undone. The just man does something, and leaves many things to be done. The moral man does something, and when no one responds he rolls up his sleeves and uses force. When the Tao is lost, there is goodness. When goodness is lost, there is morality. When morality is lost, there is ritual. Ritual is the husk of true faith, the beginning of chaos. Therefore the Master concerns himself with the depths and not the surface, with the fruit and not the flower. He has no will of his own. He dwells in reality, and lets all illusions go. Thus you can't define people as patriots without defining those who are not patriots. You necessarily can't define a group of people as good without defining some other group as bad. So you might now imagine how warfare was started, and how racism and sexism have developed. You might understand now that the English language itself is sexist. And now we are at the beginning, this a deep rabbit hole. 1 The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao The name that can be named is not the eternal Name. The unnamable is the eternally real. Naming is the origin of all particular things. Free from desire, you realize the mystery. Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations. Yet mystery and manifestations arise from the same source. This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gateway to all understanding. It took me years to understand the text and I still have not mastered it. Don't bother with those claiming that Taoism is a religion because it isn't, just learn from Lao Tzu. To quote Sun Tzu from the book "The Art of War" "Those skilled in war cultivate the Tao and preserve the laws and are therefore able to formulate victorious policies." Enjoy. | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:02 BronzeKnee wrote: Welcome. Let the Tao (http://www.edepot.com/tao4.html) be your teacher, it has taught me more than 12 years of school and college education could: 18 When the great Tao is forgotten, goodness and piety appear. When the body's intelligence declines, cleverness and knowledge step forth. When there is no peace in the family, filial piety begins. When the country falls into chaos, patriotism is born. What does this mean? I honestly can't explain it as well as the Tao: 2 When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly. When people see some things as good, other things become bad. Being and non-being create each other. Difficult and easy support each other. Long and short define each other. High and low depend on each other. Before and after follow each other. Therefore the Master acts without doing anything and teaches without saying anything. Things arise and she lets them come; things disappear and she lets them go. She has but doesn't possess, acts but doesn't expect. When her work is done, she forgets it. That is why it lasts forever. 38 The Master doesn't try to be powerful: thus he is truly powerful. The ordinary man keeps reaching for power; thus he never has enough. The Master does nothing, yet he leaves nothing undone. The ordinary man is always doing things, yet many more are left to be done. The kind man does something, yet something remains undone. The just man does something, and leaves many things to be done. The moral man does something, and when no one responds he rolls up his sleeves and uses force. When the Tao is lost, there is goodness. When goodness is lost, there is morality. When morality is lost, there is ritual. Ritual is the husk of true faith, the beginning of chaos. Therefore the Master concerns himself with the depths and not the surface, with the fruit and not the flower. He has no will of his own. He dwells in reality, and lets all illusions go. Thus you can't define people as patriots without defining those who are not patriots. You can't define a group of people as "good" without defining some other group as bad. So you might now imagine how warfare was started, and how racism and sexism have developed. You might understand now that the English language itself is sexist. And now we are at the beginning, this a deep rabbit hole. 1 The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao The name that can be named is not the eternal Name. The unnamable is the eternally real. Naming is the origin of all particular things. Free from desire, you realize the mystery. Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations. Yet mystery and manifestations arise from the same source. This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gateway to all understanding. It took me years to understand the text and I still have not mastered it. Don't bother with those claiming that Taoism is a religion because it isn't, just learn from Lao Tzu. To quote Sun Tzu from the book "The Art of War" "Those skilled in war cultivate the Tao and preserve the laws and are therefore able to formulate victorious policies." Enjoy. You don't need ridiculous metaphors and obnoxious teachings to learn things and have common sense to understand how things work. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:15 Odal wrote: You don't need ridiculous metaphors and obnoxious teachings to learn things and have common sense to understand how things work. 41 When a superior man hears of the Tao, he immediately begins to embody it. When an average man hears of the Tao, he half believes it, half doubts it. When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao. Thus it is said: The path into the light seems dark, the path forward seems to go back, the direct path seems long, true power seems weak, true purity seems tarnished, true steadfastness seems changeable, true clarity seems obscure, the greatest art seems unsophisticated, the greatest love seems indifferent, the greatest wisdom seems childish. The Tao is nowhere to be found. Yet it nourishes and completes all things. My favorite is the greatest love seems indifferent. It doesn't mean that great love is being indifferent. It is really easy to love your spouse, your kids, your family. But to love total strangers the same way? Amazing. And thus people who love all indifferently, as if everyone was their family member, show the greatest love. | ||
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Zuxo
Sweden395 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:17 BronzeKnee wrote: 41 When a superior man hears of the Tao, he immediately begins to embody it. When an average man hears of the Tao, he half believes it, half doubts it. When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao. Thus it is said: The path into the light seems dark, the path forward seems to go back, the direct path seems long, true power seems weak, true purity seems tarnished, true steadfastness seems changeable, true clarity seems obscure, the greatest art seems unsophisticated, the greatest love seems indifferent, the greatest wisdom seems childish. The Tao is nowhere to be found. Yet it nourishes and completes all things. My favorite is the greatest love seems indifferent. It doesn't mean that great love is being indifferent, it means that love is spread over everyone. It is really easy to love your spouse, your kids, your family. But to love total strangers the same way? Amazing. And thus people who all indifferently, show the greatest love. Haha, well played, well played good sir. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
67 Some say that my teaching is nonsense. Others call it lofty but impractical. But to those who have looked inside themselves, this nonsense makes perfect sense. And to those who put it into practice, this loftiness has roots that go deep. I have just three things to teach: simplicity, patience, compassion. These three are your greatest treasures. Simple in actions and in thoughts, you return to the source of being. Patient with both friends and enemies, you accord with the way things are. Compassionate toward yourself, you reconcile all beings in the world. 65 The ancient Masters didn't try to educate the people, but kindly taught them to not-know. When they think that they know the answers, people are difficult to guide. When they know that they don't know, people can find their own way. If you want to learn how to govern, avoid being clever or rich. The simplest pattern is the clearest. Content with an ordinary life, you can show all people the way back to their own true nature. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
In practice it's a very rare for the two not to mix. | ||
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justjoe09
United States27 Posts
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perestain
Germany308 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:17 BronzeKnee wrote: 41 When a superior man hears of the Tao, he immediately begins to embody it. When an average man hears of the Tao, he half believes it, half doubts it. When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao. Thus it is said: The path into the light seems dark, the path forward seems to go back, the direct path seems long, true power seems weak, true purity seems tarnished, true steadfastness seems changeable, true clarity seems obscure, the greatest art seems unsophisticated, the greatest love seems indifferent, the greatest wisdom seems childish. The Tao is nowhere to be found. Yet it nourishes and completes all things. My favorite is the greatest love seems indifferent. It doesn't mean that great love is being indifferent. It is really easy to love your spouse, your kids, your family. But to love total strangers the same way? Amazing. And thus people who love all indifferently, as if everyone was their family member, show the greatest love. This reads like "believe me, or you are ridiculous!" Is this coming from the same origin that the other words you quoted came from? It appears quite dogmatic in contrast... Why is the enlightened man considered superior to the laughing fool by default? Or is there maybe some error in translation? Otherwise the logic to divide between the superior man and the fool appears to be quite similar to patriotism actually. | ||
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Autotroph
United Kingdom940 Posts
"The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war." - Sydney J. Harris | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On November 24 2011 00:50 bonedriven wrote: It's nice to start the topic on TL as we have people from all over the world here. I've been taught since elementary school that Patriatism is a super good thing, and everyone should love his country and devote himself (even life) to his country. Later, I only had a feeling that I actually didn't love my country that much. Then one day, I thought Patriotism is full of shit. Today, I suddenly get this idea, that Patriotism is a damn same thing with Racism by nature. TLers, do you think patriotism is right? Is rooting for the player from your own country considered as out of patriotism? Congratulations on stepping outside. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:11 Zvek wrote: I think patriotism is more common in USA and parts of East Asia. No European will proudly cheer Germany! Germany! Germany! or France! or UK! Except when it's a sport. When it's about football, everyone sucks but us! And you've probably all noticed the rabid Swedish fans after TSL for instance. This is the only kind of actually accepted patriotism in all of Europe I think. Edit. It's very interesting, especially when I visit a Swedish forum how almost everyone is blatantly racist. A serious right wing wave is sweeping over Europe, and for the first time in history I think (?) there's now a purely racist party in Swedish congress with 5% or so. Almost all European countries seem to follow the same trend. | ||
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aztrorisk
United States896 Posts
As for me, my patriotism derives off of the fact that I agree with much of the US policies. For example, in other countries, there is little opportunities or chances to redeem yourself. In Korea, if you fail high school, then you will struggle for the rest of your life while in the US, you could always go to community college, work hard, and transfer. If you are not patriotic about your country, that is okay because that is a sign that there needs to be change. | ||
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tehbone
Germany4 Posts
I can love my country and still like and welcome all the other races from around our planet. I invite everyone to live here, Germany is just awesome. On the other hand would really love to spend some time in Japan or the States. | ||
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Angryhorse
Sweden387 Posts
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
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Roeder
Denmark735 Posts
There are those who are proud for their countries - proud of the music, movies, culture. They're willing to let other cultures in, but are still the first in the front row to be proud of what a "local" man has achieved. Then there's those steroid pumping, bald, moronic faggots that are completely and too inbred and narrowminded to understand, that there are other cultures - even next door, that could use a little bit of respect and recognition. In most cases those that vote DF in Denmark. | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
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