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hitthat
Poland2349 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:46 Valashu wrote: I like to compare patriotism to religion; 99% wont harm anyone but what it does is create a foothold for extremists like the Teaparty. How about some other views, like enviromentalism or socialism? Or gender identity? What if it create a foothold for new extremists? | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
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Chortana
Netherlands18 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:57 Teoman wrote: to Liberal (will be a hard discussion just looking at your name, just kidding :D) However. Wasnt the to biggest fascism and communist regimes in the world nationalist? Also North korea and China. Chortana, while i agree that forced collectivism is to some extent bad. Is it really worse to force people to work together for better lifes (not that that have ever happened) than to let people take free choices to group up and do horrible things to others (all war, KKK, nationalism) I was arguing from a really liberal standpoint yeah, but there is a fine line which can be easily crossed if the state decides its for "everyone's best intent". In a perfect world we would have collectivization out of free will and would do everything together as a group and are all super understanding etc. Sadly we don't live in an ideal world. | ||
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Chortana
Netherlands18 Posts
On November 24 2011 02:01 hitthat wrote: How about some other views, like enviromentalism or socialism? Or gender identity? What if it create a foothold for new extremists? Even those things have some retarded extremists. It can't be helped~ | ||
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SgtCoDFish
United Kingdom1520 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:34 liberal wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 24 2011 01:27 SgtCoDFish wrote: Exactly how I feel on the matter. I don't give a shit about being British, Britishness, Englishness or the idea of patriotism and I don't see why anyone would. Hahahaha, that's fucking brilliant. Shows the general level of intelligence of BNP supporters, who I generally hate with a passion that burns brighter than a thousand suns. This is kind of what I was talking about above. It's all the herd instinct. It's stupid to define yourself as British, but BNP suppporters, those guys are scum! Real enlightenment begins to come when you realize that you don't choose your opinions anymore than you choose what nation you were born in. ... I didn't say it's stupid to define yourself as British, I said I don't give a shit about being British, but I most definitely am because I come from Britain (duh). Defining yourself as a BNP supporter is completely different, it's blaming immigrants for everything wrong in your life. BNP supporters are scum not because they're patriots (many are not), but because they hate people arbitrarily based on where they come from. A BNP supporter without a job will blame "the poles" and not his useless lazy self. I don't choose my opinions? Right, whatever. I know I don't like those who hate other people for things they can't change. Race, country of birth, sexuality, etc. That's what matters, and that's what's different here. | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
Funnily enough, it's a social faux-pas to display the current German flag, or to be outspoken about great aspects of living in Germany. If I, for instance, were to say: "Gee, it's pretty great to have a social system in which no one ever has to go hungry, that's cool about Germany." I'd be accused of a right-wing mindset. This only changes during the Football World Cup. Then you can see Germany-Flags everywhere, people sing about Germany on the streets etc. pp. That being said, I feel no national pride whatsoever. Maybe it has to do with my ultra-liberal views on politics, or my believe in equality (inter-national and racial), but I could never say: "I'm proud to be German", since it's no accomplishment to simply be born in a wealthy country. There's two things I hate (I'm paraphrasing): People who are ignorant and discriminate others due to their nationality and Dutch people. TL; DR: It's encouraged to be proud of soccer players, it's frowned upon to be proud of belonging to the people of "Dichter und Denker", Germany used to be (well before WWI, well before it's own birth to be precise). | ||
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lebowskiguy
Greece201 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:44 plated.rawr wrote: Patriotism is troublesome because of how it shapes people self-percieved identity, and how that can create barriers. At the base of it all, 'patriotism' is a power tool used to unite the population under a ruler or government, which paints the good of 'us' (eg. the population under the ruler / ruling body) versus the bad of 'them' (anyone outside of the ruled area). For the sake of regional stability, patriotism is a good thing - by focusing on the shared aspects of those underneath the government, you create a sense of unity that helps reduce internal conflicts, which gives the state stability and peace, allowing for prosperity. Nowadays, the original intention of patriotism is pretty much obsolete due to the organization of nation-states and the walls of laws that define who controls what areas as well as the political alliances that enforce these, but in the dark ages and the five centuries that followed after the fall of the roman empire, with innumerable fledgeling states and undefined borders, patriotism could well define who had the 'legitimate' claim to a territory and thus the loyalty of its population, and who had not. But, as I said, with the borders of today quite defined (at least in the first and second world), patriotism has become an obsolete mechanic for nationbuilding. The concept of patriotism has mutated though, and gone from the hands of the rulers into the minds of the population. While its function as a unifier to support the ruler is less important now than it was back then, it still helps to solidify the government through a concept of government 'legitimacy'. Of course, wether or not the government is decided by the population as legitimate or not can often be irrelevant, as a lot of dictatorships and puppet governments around the world has shown the last century. But I digress. As a power tool, patriotism displays the unifying factor of 'us' and all we have in common, against the lack of these aspects of 'them'. This creates a divisive barrier. This usually manifests in two main aspects - xenophobia (fear of 'them') and nationalism (pride of 'us'). Both are rather rational responses to the function of the power tool patriotism, but they really create a lot of problems. Overall, I feel patriotism (and with it xenophobia and nationalism, as well as general racism) are parts of nationbuilding mechanics, which have had macropsychological effects. That they create a sense of unity is of course good, as most people want to feel as a part of a social unity and this can help them live a happier life. But that people use the common aspects of 'us' to become resentful or hateful of 'them' is silly. Nationalism, or pride in the nation contra others, is silly - you, as a person, can be proud of living in a country, of the accomplishments its population has had over the years, of the way the country is being run by the government. BUT. You have no reason to feel that this pride of yours justifies any sort of belittlement of other nations, of other humans because they were not born at the same random geographic location that you were. YOU did not create the nation. YOU did not shape the history. YOU did not invent, paint, create or compose your way into the soul of the people. Any greatness of the nation is the nation's alone, and while you can very well be proud and happy of being a member of the nation, this in no way gives you any right to feel the nation's accomplishments are yours to use against others. Edit. Sorry this is kinda fragmented. I'm at work, so I keep getting interrupted every other sentence. :p you wrote this at work? very nice! If I had read this I probably wouldn't have bothered with mine =P | ||
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Chaves
Brazil315 Posts
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liberal
1116 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:57 Teoman wrote: to Liberal (will be a hard discussion just looking at your name, just kidding :D) However. Wasnt the to biggest fascism and communist regimes in the world nationalist? Also North korea and China. Chortana, while i agree that forced collectivism is to some extent bad. Is it really worse to force people to work together for better lifes (not that that have ever happened) than to let people take free choices to group up and do horrible things to others (all war, KKK, nationalism) I really don't want to derail the thread, but I'll give my opinion on this because it's also somewhat related to the issues with nationalism/patriotism. In practice, collectivism always takes it's form as a government institution, using government power. Anytime a people have the philosophy that you should be able to subordinate the rights of the individual in exchange for the rights of an invented group, you essentially open the door to authoritarianism and totalitarianism. The great liberal traditions throughout history all devised systems of government and constitutions which were designed to subordinate the government to the individual. Those nations have enjoyed relative levels of freedom and prosperity, while many nations which took a collectivist route often suffered sever economic hardship and loss of liberty. In some instances, it resulted in the deaths of millions, either through starvation and deprivation, or mass murder. When government has power, it will use that power. Power corrupts. That is why the liberal tradition has always sought to decentralize power, to have competing branches of government, strict rules and regulations governing their actions. Collectivists tend to go in the opposite direction, giving the government ever more power and control over the individual. That doesn't mean authoritarian will occur overnight. Many nations have very strong central governments, but still allow many freedoms for the individual. But government is always making a perpetual march toward the direction of authoritarianism. You can see it day by day as nations such as the United States lose both social and economic freedoms as their government grows in size. It really doesn't matter whether the collectivization of society is accomplished by force, or by exploiting racism/nationalism/patriotism, or by attempting to achieve economic equality. What we are trying to avoid is NOT a specific mentality of specific individuals or groups. What we are trying to avoid is allowing ANY group to reach a position of excessive power which can subjugate the individual and subvert freedom and democracy. | ||
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Ender985
Spain910 Posts
Someone put it this way: "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it", and I entirely agree. | ||
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akaLtDan
Germany62 Posts
So for my part, I am patriotic but definitely not a racist by any means. I know that this is made very easy, but this is a topic which can be discussed on 100 pages onwards and still isn't finally discussed. p.s. I know I am from Germany and no, I am not proud of the things that happened several decades ago. Just in case someone thinks he needs to mention that. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:41 Aristodemus wrote: I find the suggestion that anyone who loves his/her country is a racist offensive. I love my country and a multicultural one it is. I don't know about Great Britain though so I can't say for sure. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On November 24 2011 02:14 Ender985 wrote: Someone put it this way: "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it", and I entirely agree. It's really semantics. I would replace "Patriotism" with "Nationalism" and then I'd agree. Others have said patriotism simply means pride in one's country. Or devotion to one's country. If you want to actually do something about your country, look up local civics practices and get involved. I think people would have more pride this way, since it goes from simply "you were born in it" to "you were born in it and got involved with trying to make things work (whatever that perspective is for you)". | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
On November 24 2011 02:15 akaLtDan wrote: In my opinion, patriotism means to be proud of his country and racism means to think your country is better than others. Others thereby can be nations, ethnics, countries whatsoever. And I am aware of the fact that patriotism CAN be racist, it really depends. To be honest I am convinced that it is possible to like his country and/ or origin without discriminating and disliking others at the same time. So for my part, I am patriotic but definitely not a racist by any means. I know that this is made very easy, but this is a topic which can be discussed on 100 pages onwards and still isn't finally discussed. p.s. I know I am from Germany and no, I am not proud of the things that happened several decades ago. Just in case someone thinks he needs to mention that. Racism has nothing to do with nationality but with race. You are refering to ethnic nationalism. | ||
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akaLtDan
Germany62 Posts
On November 24 2011 02:21 kafkaesque wrote: Racism has nothing to do with nationality but with race. You are refering to ethnic nationalism. One cannot divide mankind into races, it's a term from biology only referring to animals. It was misused and coined about 100 years ago. How do you want to differentiate between races? Tbh that would mean to some degree to classify humans which is not right and not possible. But despite that fact you understand the point I tried to make, don't you? | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
It should not be encouraged to be overly proud of your country. You should be proud of who you are - not your society (with a multicultural world it's problematic being afraid to evolve the current system). | ||
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hitthat
Poland2349 Posts
But if we are talking about f.e. my language... -if you say it sound stupid, i would feel only a bit uneasy -if you say "you polaks should throw this difficult, giberishy language off and use some good ol' english", I would feel offended and find the very idea riddiculus -if you try to FORCE me to use english on MY ground, you can be sure as hell of my hostile response. From the rational point of wiev, using english is better, as it's simple language known by many people all around the world, and putting it in place of the difficult language that only 40 milion people can talk, seems quite logical. But that's not the reason I would prefer it over my own. It has nothing common with rationality, but i accept that way of thinking, becouse this is my own choice. I dont expect anybody accept that, I can understand that it seems quite stupid. And I dont care about it. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
It is patriotic to serve in your country's military. It is patriotic to pay taxes. It is patriotic to say "I want this country to be the best country in the world". It is not patriotic to say "Fuck arabs, they killed people in 9/11". It is not patriotic to say "Russia sucks, go team USA!". It is not patriotic to grow a mullet. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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rhmiller907
United States118 Posts
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