EPTNo, it's not a good thing.
Patriotism and Racism - Page 3
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
No, it's not a good thing. | ||
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bonedriven
258 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:21 Crisium wrote: Would Swedish people be willing to dissolve their government and legal systems and be absorbed as part of Finland? Should Canada cease to exist and its laws be torn asunder and be simply added as the 51st US State? Why does Switzerland even exist? Doesn't 95% of the population speak either German, French, or Italian? Why not integrate into these other, larger countries? Should Ireland return to the UK? Why not become another part of the Kingdom and accept their law? Saying "No" to that is patriotism. I say no to your questions. I think I would be doing OK if suddenly there's only one country on earth, and the leader was from a former African country the name of which I haven't heard of, as long as he's doing his job well. | ||
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Vore210
Ireland256 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:34 liberal wrote: This is kind of what I was talking about above. It's all the herd instinct. It's stupid to define yourself as British, but BNP suppporters, those guys are scum! Real enlightenment begins to come when you realize that you don't choose your opinions anymore than you choose what nation you were born in. Everyone has the ability to reflect on their opinions, thoughts and actions. Those who choose not to do so, and instead maintain such disgusting behaviour, deserve to be held in contempt. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:13 TheBomb wrote: That is like comparing apples and asteroids. Its like absolutely and utterly different things. Patriotism is when you love your country, because its your people, you know your tribe in a sense. Racism is like completely different, its judging people based on race. Patriotism is defensing your country from a foreign or internal enemy and being proud and appreciative of your country. I don't see how patriotism is bad. The globalists will have you believe we need collectivism, but that is something to stay as far away from as possible. I mean patriotism is also deeply rooted with freedom and liberty so if anyone says patriotism is bad then you better know the guy is either misguided or a bad person. May i ask for a reason why collectivism and globalism is bad. Why should we not try to work together for a better future instead of fighting for the last bits of resources left on earth? And how is patriotism rooted with freedom and liberty? Doesnt mean to sound mean, just would like you to explain why you do not like globalism. | ||
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Thrill
2599 Posts
That pride should be measured against the shame of not intervening though. The example i linked is far from the worst, far, far from it. Until we help out more, there's not too much to be proud of. The American concept of "give me your tired, your poor" isn't exactly reality anymore. While it was, pride was certainly warranted. | ||
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liberal
1116 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:36 Teoman wrote: May i ask for a reason why collectivism and globalism is bad. Why should we not try to work together for a better future instead of fighting for the last bits of resources left on earth? And how is patriotism rooted with freedom and liberty? Doesnt mean to sound mean, just would like you to explain why you do not like globalism. It's very likely he was trolling. At least it's hard to take that last paragraph seriously. If you want a reason why collectivism is bad though, try looking at the historical consequences of both fascism and communism throughout the world. On November 24 2011 01:39 Thrill wrote: The American concept of "give me your tired, your poor" isn't exactly reality anymore. While it was, pride was certainly warranted. At what point in history would you say it was more true than now? The US is giving significantly more economic assistance to the poor than at any time in history. And they do still have essentially open borders with some very poor nations. | ||
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Chortana
Netherlands18 Posts
My opinion is that being proud of the fact that your nationality is X, while not having done anything to contribute how "great" that certain country is, is just plain stupid because you contributed nothing. However, I think there is no reason to be ashamed/persecuted of for being proud of what your great-grandfather for example contributed to that country. Once you actually contribute something to your country being "better/greater" then I guess you can have some pride about being X as long as it does not turn into "all others are worse and we are oh so much better" | ||
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hitthat
Poland2349 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:22 callecal wrote: well patriotism is very closely related to pride. As is Racism. racism is related with despising other, not pride. And not Racism, but rACISM. And yes, i'm patriot. Call me dumb, I couldnt care less. | ||
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Aristodemus
England2014 Posts
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Chortana
Netherlands18 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:41 liberal wrote: It's very likely he was trolling. At least it's hard to take that last paragraph seriously. If you want a reason why collectivism is bad though, try looking at the historical consequences of both fascism and communism throughout the world. Forced collectivism is bad, if people group up together for better things and thus collectivism happens through free choices then in no way its bad. | ||
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
At the base of it all, 'patriotism' is a power tool used to unite the population under a ruler or government, which paints the good of 'us' (eg. the population under the ruler / ruling body) versus the bad of 'them' (anyone outside of the ruled area). For the sake of regional stability, patriotism is a good thing - by focusing on the shared aspects of those underneath the government, you create a sense of unity that helps reduce internal conflicts, which gives the state stability and peace, allowing for prosperity. Nowadays, the original intention of patriotism is pretty much obsolete due to the organization of nation-states and the walls of laws that define who controls what areas as well as the political alliances that enforce these, but in the dark ages and the five centuries that followed after the fall of the roman empire, with innumerable fledgeling states and undefined borders, patriotism could well define who had the 'legitimate' claim to a territory and thus the loyalty of its population, and who had not. But, as I said, with the borders of today quite defined (at least in the first and second world), patriotism has become an obsolete mechanic for nationbuilding. The concept of patriotism has mutated though, and gone from the hands of the rulers into the minds of the population. While its function as a unifier to support the ruler is less important now than it was back then, it still helps to solidify the government through a concept of government 'legitimacy'. Of course, wether or not the government is decided by the population as legitimate or not can often be irrelevant, as a lot of dictatorships and puppet governments around the world has shown the last century. But I digress. As a power tool, patriotism displays the unifying factor of 'us' and all we have in common, against the lack of these aspects of 'them'. This creates a divisive barrier. This usually manifests in two main aspects - xenophobia (fear of 'them') and nationalism (pride of 'us'). Both are rather rational responses to the function of the power tool patriotism, but they really create a lot of problems. Overall, I feel patriotism (and with it xenophobia and nationalism, as well as general racism) are parts of nationbuilding mechanics, which have had macropsychological effects. That they create a sense of unity is of course good, as most people want to feel as a part of a social unity and this can help them live a happier life. But that people use the common aspects of 'us' to become resentful or hateful of 'them' is silly. Nationalism, or pride in the nation contra others, is silly - you, as a person, can be proud of living in a country, of the accomplishments its population has had over the years, of the way the country is being run by the government. BUT. You have no reason to feel that this pride of yours justifies any sort of belittlement of other nations, of other humans because they were not born at the same random geographic location that you were. YOU did not create the nation. YOU did not shape the history. YOU did not invent, paint, create or compose your way into the soul of the people. Any greatness of the nation is the nation's alone, and while you can very well be proud and happy of being a member of the nation, this in no way gives you any right to feel the nation's accomplishments are yours to use against others. Edit. Sorry this is kinda fragmented. I'm at work, so I keep getting interrupted every other sentence. :p | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
In 1971 John Lennon sang: Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no Imagine all the people living life in peace You, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one I hope some day you'll join us And the world will be as one | ||
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Valashu
Netherlands561 Posts
Good chance that football/soccer shows the darkest side of the Dutch. someone will probably use *gasp* lligal fireworks. I think patriotism is wrong and a tool for war and rash actions. Im my eyes if a guy or girl lived in your area and you feel more connected to him/her than lets say, team Vietnam ? | ||
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3DGlaDOS
Germany607 Posts
In my opinion patriotism can unify people with their pride and can cause positive feelings, but there is a borderline between patriotism and racism that can be crossed. I'm okay with a patriotic statement like "My country is good", but saying "My country is good, all others are shit" is like racism and shouldn't be tolerated by the public. | ||
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lebowskiguy
Greece201 Posts
In that sense, I am a true patriot, if patriotism means that all humanity should be united and everyone should be proud only for his/her own actions and not have a mob mentality | ||
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OgsStump
128 Posts
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:32 Mecker wrote: Patriotism rarely leads to improvement. Patriotism is more likely an invisible chain that forces you to be satisfied with the way things are no matter how bad they get. (USA) A true "patriot" is the person who criticizes the country and forces it to improve because otherwise they get the fuck out of there. but i am out of my country, and i am criticizing it. it's a shitdump, with asshats for politicians, believe me | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:30 Mecker wrote: We should really define the word patriotism though. Most people will define it as Patriot = Proud to be X. That's why there's a general disgust towards patriots. Being proud of something for which you did nothing to achieve is ludicrous. If Sweden suddenly adopted American law and societal structure I would move in an instant. That means I'm not a patriot and it also means I'm being rational. Did nothing to achieve? How so, because you were not around at your country's inception? I can't speak for your country, but I think it's true all over the western world. Civics is undervalued, and people think they have no say in their country. But you do. Voting, petitions, letters, local meetings, etc. There is much you can do to help your country achieve something. Sweden can adopt American law and America can adopt Swedish law, but they'd also be able to revert since both countries have malleable democracies. Don't forget that you can fight to change things (legally). And I think the fact that you look down on American law (based on your understanding of it from the Internet and TV) is a bit of Swedish patriotism. | ||
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WTFZerg
United States704 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:47 wBsKillian wrote: Living and growing up in a country which has a history with parts you cannot be proud of at all there is nearly no outspoken patriotism here; pride of Germany only exists in sports. 10 years ago environment minister Jürgen Trittin called Laurenz Meyer (who stated in an interview that he was proud of Germany) a "Skinhead". Even if I only say something like "I'm proud of Germany because it grew to a big economic power after being totally destroyed in 1945" people react indignantly to this statement. Correspondingly people here mostly have negative feelings about their country which I don't think are justified. A little patriotism here wouldn't hurt. In my opinion patriotism can unify people with their pride and can cause positive feelings, but there is a borderline between patriotism and racism that can be crossed. I'm okay with a patriotic statement like "My country is good", but saying "My country is good, all others are shit" is like racism and shouldn't be tolerated by the public. I'd probably be pretty patriotic if I were German. "Can't conquer Europe through war? Fine, we'll just conquer Europe economically!" | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:43 Chortana wrote: Forced collectivism is bad, if people group up together for better things and thus collectivism happens through free choices then in no way its bad. to Liberal (will be a hard discussion just looking at your name, just kidding :D) However. Wasnt the to biggest fascism and communist regimes in the world nationalist? Also North korea and China. Chortana, while i agree that forced collectivism is to some extent bad. Is it really worse to force people to work together for better lifes (not that that have ever happened) than to let people take free choices to group up and do horrible things to others (all war, KKK, nationalism) | ||
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