EPTPatriotism and Racism - Page 5
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English
United States475 Posts
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
There is no denying that native Americans are a different race than native African people. Same species, different race and in a perfect world equal rights. It was never meant to be used in a political sense and when Darwin wrote TOoS and SotF and he never intended to be anything but scientific / biological, but it has been used to justify aggressive expansion way before WWI by Germans, Britons and Spaniards alike. A government shouldn't make any difference due to race and there should be equal opportunities, but saying that a person belongs to a specific race is totally unbiased and a neutral statement, as long as you don't apply certain stereotypes to said race. Saying he's black so he has an African heritage is fine. Saying he's black so he's sub-human is the opposite of fine and a very dangerous attitude to have (as to be seen for instance in the genocides in Africa before WWI). | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
On November 24 2011 02:15 akaLtDan wrote: In my opinion, patriotism means to be proud of his country and racism means to think your country is better than others. Others thereby can be nations, ethnics, countries whatsoever. And I am aware of the fact that patriotism CAN be racist, it really depends. To be honest I am convinced that it is possible to like his country and/ or origin without discriminating and disliking others at the same time. So for my part, I am patriotic but definitely not a racist by any means. I know that this is made very easy, but this is a topic which can be discussed on 100 pages onwards and still isn't finally discussed. p.s. I know I am from Germany and no, I am not proud of the things that happened several decades ago. Just in case someone thinks he needs to mention that. Concerning your last sentence I am wondering if Hitler might be seen as a hero in a few centuries. Italians are proud of Caesar, he massacered over a million gauls to get money to pay back his personal debts and to advance in politics. Americans are proud of their settlers and history how they conquered a continent, although it meant the death of 95% of the population of a whole continent. French are proud of Napoleon although he killed many people and there are suggestions that he used gas chambers to kill caribbeans. | ||
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perestain
Germany308 Posts
On November 24 2011 00:50 bonedriven wrote: It's nice to start the topic on TL as we have people from all over the world here. I've been taught since elementary school that Patriatism is a super good thing, and everyone should love his country and devote himself (even life) to his country. Later, I only had a feeling that I actually didn't love my country that much. Then one day, I thought Patriotism is full of shit. Today, I suddenly get this idea, that Patriotism is a damn same thing with Racism by nature. TLers, do you think patriotism is right? Is rooting for the player from your own country considered as out of patriotism? Both concepts refer to the same kind of emotion. The fact that one has a very positive connotation and another one a very negative connotation naturally leads to many people wanting to believe they can be patriotic on the one hand and not racist on the other hand. But if you are completely honest to yourself, you can not avoid to notice that you will have patriotic/racist feelings to some degree. It is just a matter of how you deal with it and how you let them affects your actions. This is one of the responsibilities that come with enlightenment. Or you can be ignorant and claim they are two different things, which is way more comfortable of course. Eating from the tree of knowledge has its price. The problem is to some degree similar to when you are asking if a group of insurgents are heroic rebels or rather terrorists. It completely depends on how your personal view of the world is, and any attempts to clearly divide between the two things are mere propagandistic constructs since there is no one true way to look at the world. Both concepts are used in different contexts to portray the same thing as either good or bad depending on the intent of those who use that expression. | ||
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Kater
72 Posts
To be proud of a place is already nonsense, since it just happens to be there. A country itself is just an idea by individuals, its a place which was given a name. so should i be proud of them? I surely wont since they did it for either reasonable & selfish reasons, same for any country in the world. So should i be proud of being born in this country? Actually thats my mothers fault. Should I be proud of an entire country or its people just for the achievements of individuals? What does my lazy ass has to do with the Achievements of great personalities and great minds? Of course i admire them and Im surely thankful. But its not like they are my sons and daughters, I just happen to be the same nationality as them. Well I also happen to be tall, should I be proud of being tall cause there have been alot of great tall people? Should I not be proud of the Successes of all them People from other Nations? Should I be proud of everything destructive and bad either which people of my country did? Or just ignore it? Should I be proud of my town or my state or my country or my continent or this planet or this universe cause alot of good stuff used to happen here? I assure you alot of really bad things happened as well, in every country. I really dont see the reason for the word "proud" here. I love alot of things about my country, and i dislike quite alot of things either. And thats the same for all them other countries. except for france, i fucking hate france. jk | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:01 WTFZerg wrote: "Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is I'm not. I honestly just feel that America's the best country and all the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism." Can't remember what the hell this quote is from but a friend of mine linked it to me not too long ago and I thought it was pretty neat. People that say stuff like that generally haven't been out of their home state. | ||
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Potling
Norway298 Posts
patriotism (plural patriotisms) Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country. racism (uncountable) - The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes. - The belief that one race is superior to all others. - Prejudice or discrimination based upon race. And when using "racism", specify which of the meanings you intend. | ||
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Parj
France55 Posts
If you can't beat strangers you beat junkies. If you can't beat junkies you beat homosexuals. If you can't beat homosexuals you beat the disabled. etc.. It's the same pulsion of segregation, the pulsion of considering "something" different from you, which change about his goal to express. So there"s effectively a psychological link between patriotism (patris in latin mean father), nationalism, religions, whatever you want...perhaps between our planets and visitors if this day come, just because something is different from "us". Ask you this question, how can you accept someone from another country, religion or anything that this person could be or make different from you as your equal; IF you don't consider your wife as your equal? This feeling is part of our "bestiality" this is something coming from ages. Equality is not a business between countries or cultures, it's a deal between men and women. In sixties in France, a wife cannot had a check book without the authorization of her husband. Today womens are still paid 38% less then mens in same jobs in France. So if you want to know which coutries are the most equal between humans being, look at their governements. I think that's "nordics" ( Sweden, Finland, Norway and Canada) are the most evoluated. So the last question is "How"?By education and showing the good example in our families. | ||
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Potling
Norway298 Posts
On November 24 2011 02:56 Parj wrote: Today womens are still paid 38% less then mens in same jobs in France. | ||
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perestain
Germany308 Posts
Nice conspiracy theory. User was warned for this post | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
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Potling
Norway298 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3434 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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perestain
Germany308 Posts
On November 24 2011 03:07 Potling wrote: Devastating rebuttal, perestain. Devastating, true, but it was no rebuttal. People will naturally go to great length protecting their ignorance to ensure their peace of mind, thus confrontation tends to be devastating. Same thing when you discover patriotism and racism refer to the same emotion, it is just a matter of portraying said emotion as good or evil. Arguments are usually made to feel comfortable rather than to convey the truth. I wont blame anyone tbh. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
Personally I'm no patriot, nor would I encourage anyone to be one, but I don't take issue with other Americans that love America and are willing to serve in the armed forces and such so long as they don't carry it over into thinking that being American somehow makes the better than anyone else. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
Just about anything that unilaterally says any group of people is inherently superior to another is simply stupid. But for the reason that you happened to live in the same general geographical area? Idiotic. I am an American Patriot, and am only so because I do so by critiquing my own government and people the best way I can to achieve a nation whose culture and creed could be accepted by any good human being. I abhor the United States's MO before 1964, I abhor irrational hatred towards any group, and I am ethnic Korean. TBH, I've gotten into many an argument where I attempt to argue that the only truly good patriotism is the self-hating kind of American Patriotism to which I cling... because Patriotism is almost never good or even passably okay... because people are, inherently, almost never good or even passably okay on a basic level. The only way to be right is to be against the base kind of human nature itself, right? Or so I think  | ||
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perestain
Germany308 Posts
On November 24 2011 03:36 forsooth wrote: I think you're mixing up patriotism with nationalism. Nationalism overlaps into patriotism, but patriotism is more or less loving your homeland and being willing to make sacrifices for it. It doesn't have to include feelings of superiority over other countries at all. That's more what nationalism is. Personally I'm no patriot, nor would I encourage anyone to be one, but I don't take issue with other Americans that love America and are willing to serve in the armed forces and such so long as they don't carry it over into thinking that being American somehow makes the better than anyone else. I understand where you are coming from and it is a very practical way of thinking. But to me there is still the dilemma that it makes no sense to serve with your life for something if you dont think it is better than something else. Somehow, Nietzsche's rejection of eros comes to mind here: "Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too." Although the god part always left me a bit confused i must admit. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:34 liberal wrote: This is kind of what I was talking about above. It's all the herd instinct. It's stupid to define yourself as British, but BNP suppporters, those guys are scum! Real enlightenment begins to come when you realize that you don't choose your opinions anymore than you choose what nation you were born in. The BNP are objectively racists and fascists; they are scum. | ||
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Plague1503
Croatia466 Posts
When you put all those things together, you see why patriotism is so deeply ingrained and widespread in our culture. In 99.9% of cases it goes hand-in-hand with racism and/or nationalism (ESPECIALLY towards Serbians) and it's pretty sickening to see every day. I can somewhat UNDERSTAND that attitude in people who literally saw their villages being burned to ground, together with their wives and children, but I can't excuse it (why does it matter if it was a Serb or a Polak or a Ukrainian or a German or a fellow Croatian or a fucking tribesman who did it?) So, at least in my experience, yes, "patriotism" is almost universally bad and leads to an extremist mindset. For me personally, I don't give a fuck. The longer I live here and see and live inside the mentality of extreme nationalism, crony capitalism, bribery and corruption in the public sector, the more I could care less if this piece of shit country burns in hell along with all of our asshat politicans from the 90's up to now. We'd be better off renting the land to Sweden or some other highly developed Scandinavian country so that they would actually DO something with the natural resources and tourism opportunities the land provides. If anything, I'm an anti-patriot and would move anywhere but here as soon as I had the money and the opportunity. | ||
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