On November 20 2011 13:09 eLe.Long wrote: So... Girls can join boys teams, but boys can't join girl's teams?
So much for equality, eh?
You guys are effing stupid. Of course it goes only one way and not the other when it comes to competition. Girls are at a strict disadvantage in muscle and speed sports against boys and if a girl can compete despite that disadvantage then why not let her participate.
Not stupid at all.
You could apply your reasoning to boys who are thinner and weaker than most other boys and say they should be allowed to compete in girl's sports because they don't have an advantage.
You reason correctly that boys are not stronger than girls...but boys are on average stronger than girls, and there is overlap. Why allow females to move over into male territory if they are suited for it but not allow males to move over into female territory if that is where they are more suited? What I am getting at is set standards for the sports and judge everyone as individuals and not based on gender. Then a strong girl could play football or lacrosse if she wants to and a short scrawny boy can play on a team made up of mostly girls..not because they are girls but because that is where his ability would match up.
How is a boy competing with girls any different than some unusually large brute of a girl competing with other girls?
Not that any of this applies to the topic which is swimming which is a single player sport and should be unisex along with track and field, bowling, golf etc
lol Just compare every record of every track and field or swimming event between men and women. Then you should see why Unisex athletics and swimming are a stupid idea.
except that thats not what he said at all.
the reasoning for separation based on sex is that on average boys are stronger than girls and that at the very top end boys have a higher maximum speed or strength, but there are HUGE areas of overlap, therefore a man of equal size and weight to a female competitor could argue that he has a right to compete against women, because the males competitors of his sport are probably bigger and stronger than him in ways he cannot train to overcome.
lets look at the example of long distance running. Africans, primarily Ethiopians from a specific area of Ethiopia have consistently been far and away the best long distance runners for years. would we ever consider a separate black and white league for running? the very very best runners in the world are all black, but 99% of people can just train harder to improve their times. the sport is dominated by black athletes but any idea of separating the sport to encourage white runners to enter and compete, would be sickening to a lot of people.
Biological differences across gender are very, very, very different than they are across race. They are not comparable. By your logic 99% of women should just "train harder" to improve their times - after all the genetic difference between a man and woman is no different than that of a black and white male!
Clearly all women are just lazy athletes who are coddled and babied by their female only competitions. If we just force them to compete against men they will just have to work hard (like us strong, superior men) and then they will reach our level. *rolls eyes*
On November 21 2011 08:18 Holykitty wrote: no. 99% of females or males or anyone, can just work harder to achieve anything.
my point is just the differences in how racial differences and sexual differences are handled and the results that has in the long term.
Well we shouldn't bother balancing starcraft at all, in fact just undo all the patches and revert back to beta. After all, 99% of people can improve their play anyways and will never play the game perfectly.
On November 21 2011 08:18 Holykitty wrote: no. 99% of females or males or anyone, can just work harder to achieve anything.
my point is just the differences in how racial differences and sexual differences are handled and the results that has in the long term.
Well we shouldn't bother balancing starcraft at all, in fact just undo all the patches and revert back to beta. After all, 99% of people can improve their play anyways and will never play the game perfectly.
broodwar hasnt been patched in 7 years
or just to fit the analogy, we could base the length of your lane of the swimming pool on how big you are. then anyone could swim if they worked hard. its just a shame that changing a map is easier than changing a swimming pool
On November 21 2011 08:18 Holykitty wrote: no. 99% of females or males or anyone, can just work harder to achieve anything.
my point is just the differences in how racial differences and sexual differences are handled and the results that has in the long term.
Well we shouldn't bother balancing starcraft at all, in fact just undo all the patches and revert back to beta. After all, 99% of people can improve their play anyways and will never play the game perfectly.
broodwar hasnt been patched in 7 years
or just to fit the analogy, we could base the length of your lane of the swimming pool on how big you are. then anyone could swim if they worked hard. its just a shame that changing a map is easier than changing a swimming pool
You are making my points for me. Brood War hasn't been patched in 7 years because IT IS BALANCED. Men vs Women in athletics IS NOT. Having women compete seperately IS THE PATCH.
Would it be fairer to tell the boys they can't swim, period? Cause that sounds way more unfair to them.
High school sports aren't all about competition and winning. If the boys can't swim because they don't have enough members for a boys-only swim team, then this situation is the best way to accommodate them. To tell them they can't compete because it would be unfair would actually be pretty ironic.
On November 21 2011 08:41 wherebugsgo wrote: Why is this a question of competition fairness?
Would it be fairer to tell the boys they can't swim, period? Cause that sounds way more unfair to them.
High school sports aren't all about competition and winning. If the boys can't swim because they don't have enough members for a boys-only swim team, then this situation is the best way to accommodate them. To tell them they can't compete because it would be unfair would actually be pretty ironic.
No one is saying this. There are accommodations that can be made, but for whatever reason the school/state organization is not making them. In my state there are schools that "coop" smaller sports, pooling the two schools together for the purposes of competition. The boys could compete for another school and could even continue training in their own pool with the girl's team if they wished (although if the transportation wasn't too inconvenient it would be preferable for them to train with the team they will be competing for).
If there is no other way for the guy to swim then this may be one of the only way to get noticed and scholarships. I know where I am from if your school does not have a team you can also compete with another schools team. This is so you can get noticed where it does matter.
On November 21 2011 08:18 Holykitty wrote: no. 99% of females or males or anyone, can just work harder to achieve anything.
my point is just the differences in how racial differences and sexual differences are handled and the results that has in the long term.
Well we shouldn't bother balancing starcraft at all, in fact just undo all the patches and revert back to beta. After all, 99% of people can improve their play anyways and will never play the game perfectly.
broodwar hasnt been patched in 7 years
or just to fit the analogy, we could base the length of your lane of the swimming pool on how big you are. then anyone could swim if they worked hard. its just a shame that changing a map is easier than changing a swimming pool
You are making my points for me. Brood War hasn't been patched in 7 years because IT IS BALANCED. Men vs Women in athletics IS NOT. Having women compete seperately IS THE PATCH.
no time in the history of broodwar has there been a 50:50 win rate, and yet noone changes the balance, why? because they can all just work harder and win more
you are missing the point though, its not about this wide idea of what is balanced. because anyone can find an example of a girl more physically capable than a guy. the imbalance discussion only affects the highest levels of competition, the same as starcraft. for everyone else they just need to try harder, at the school level people should just all compete together. they can keep a girl record and a male record, anyone looking to give scholarships or whatever can obviously tell the difference between a boy and a girl. they can even have 2 trophies. but they can still swim in the same pool
On November 21 2011 08:18 Holykitty wrote: no. 99% of females or males or anyone, can just work harder to achieve anything.
my point is just the differences in how racial differences and sexual differences are handled and the results that has in the long term.
Well we shouldn't bother balancing starcraft at all, in fact just undo all the patches and revert back to beta. After all, 99% of people can improve their play anyways and will never play the game perfectly.
broodwar hasnt been patched in 7 years
or just to fit the analogy, we could base the length of your lane of the swimming pool on how big you are. then anyone could swim if they worked hard. its just a shame that changing a map is easier than changing a swimming pool
You are making my points for me. Brood War hasn't been patched in 7 years because IT IS BALANCED. Men vs Women in athletics IS NOT. Having women compete seperately IS THE PATCH.
no time in the history of broodwar has there been a 50:50 win rate, and yet noone changes the balance, why? because they can all just work harder and win more
you are missing the point though, its not about this wide idea of what is balanced. because anyone can find an example of a girl more physically capable than a guy. the imbalance discussion only affects the highest levels of competition, the same as starcraft. for everyone else they just need to try harder, at the school level people should just all compete together. they can keep a girl record and a male record, anyone looking to give scholarships or whatever can obviously tell the difference between a boy and a girl. they can even have 2 trophies. but they can still swim in the same pool
No one changes the balance in brood war because it is very, very close to 50/50, changes constantly, and is so tightly strung that even a minor change could throw the entire game out of whack.
The whole "imbalance only affects the highest levels of competition" is a mildly valid argument in starcraft when used properly (which you aren't doing). It refers to, as an example, not buffing reaver move-speed based on lower level players being ineffective with them because a top player can shuttle micro and turn the reaver in to a 1 unit army. It does not mean that imbalance does not affect lower level players, or else we may as well buff marine damage to 20 per shot and tell zergs "too bad you still have room to improve your play".
The argument is not only entirely irrelevant to swimming, but also contradicts the point you are trying to make. At the highest levels of competition guess what happens...Men are much, much faster than women.
I have no idea what you are trying to say about swimming in the same pool. Nobody is saying they can't train in the same pool as the women. If you are trying to say that it doesn't matter who you are swimming against in a race because all that matters is the clock, then you are entirely ignorant of all sports and competitive activities and should stop arguing about this altogether. I'd suggest not trying to impose your views on activities that you've never taken part in, and possibly never even watched before.
On November 21 2011 09:57 Marcus420 wrote: It clearly says they dont have a boys league. Its not their fault they have too, they have no other option to do what they love.
Are you implying that there is no boys swimming in that state? Other posts "clearly say" that there are other options that do not ruin the competition for females.
On November 21 2011 09:57 BarbieHsu wrote: Competitive fairness it less important than equal opportunity, especially at that level.
Let's not forget that the first thing we were taught was that it wasn't about winning, it was how we played the game.
There is equal opportunity. Somebody (either the school, the HS association, or these boys - unlikely them though) is not doing what they need to do to take advantage of this opportunity. There are competitions for boys, and there are ways to get them competing in them.
EPT
