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On November 21 2011 02:08 Xiphos wrote:
Hold on a moment, is this team designed for female gender only? Or is it unisex? If its the prior then I can understand all the outrage about what had occurred. In a nutshell: state-sanctioned competitive swimming is segregated by gender. The team in question is designated as a girls team, which means that the swimmers on it can be sent to sectional, regional, and state girls' meets (and not to the boys' equivalent). Conversely, if it were a boys team, the swimmers on it could be sent to the boys' meets and not the girls' meets.
Owing to a technicality of the law, schools that have a girls' team but not a boys' team, have to let boys onto the girls' team, which currently means not only that they train with the girls' team but that they compete in girls' events. As a number of people have said in this thread, a more logical solution would surely be to allow schools to send swimmers to the appropriate events, regardless of what gender their "team" is officially, and perhaps with this receiving media attention, the state athletics board will make that change.
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On November 20 2011 13:08 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:02 Syth wrote:
So you're saying those boys shouldn't be allowed to swim then?
Seriously, it's school swimming. Who actually cares if boys are competing with girls. Competition is competition. Trust me, people care. And I'm saying that those boys shouldn't be allowed to swim on the girls' team. If that means that they can't swim for the school at all, because there isn't a boys team, well that's too bad, but it's no worse than not being able to swim because your school doesn't have any swim team. Which, for instance, my high school didn't. It's really not as tragic as you're making it out to be. Put it differently, suppose that for whatever reason there was a swimming program in a middle school but not the associated high school. Would you say that high schoolers should be able to swim against middle schoolers because of "fairness"? That's a pretty backwards way to look at it, imo. Remember, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to use the pool. Just that they shouldn't be able to compete against girls in state-sanctioned competition. To me that seems like common sense.
I competed in Athletics for years in an age group way above mine and won. At 13 I was competing for my local athletics club in high jump and javelin in both the under 15 and under 17's catagories. At 15 I was competing and winning for the mens team. Age makes little difference to how good you can be against people of a somewhat similar age, it all about talent and practice. The same can be said between male and female up to a certain age and level of competition.
Until the age of 16-17, there isn't much of a difference between speed and strength between guys and girls in general. in the UK girls and boys can play most sports together until adulthood including football (soccer), in which girls put their bodies in danger. At least in swimming its just you and the water.
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On November 20 2011 13:12 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:09 eLe.Long wrote:
So... Girls can join boys teams, but boys can't join girl's teams?
So much for equality, eh? You guys are effing stupid. Of course it goes only one way and not the other when it comes to competition. Girls are at a strict disadvantage in muscle and speed sports against boys and if a girl can compete despite that disadvantage then why not let her participate.
Not stupid at all.
You could apply your reasoning to boys who are thinner and weaker than most other boys and say they should be allowed to compete in girl's sports because they don't have an advantage.
You reason correctly that boys are not stronger than girls...but boys are on average stronger than girls, and there is overlap. Why allow females to move over into male territory if they are suited for it but not allow males to move over into female territory if that is where they are more suited? What I am getting at is set standards for the sports and judge everyone as individuals and not based on gender. Then a strong girl could play football or lacrosse if she wants to and a short scrawny boy can play on a team made up of mostly girls..not because they are girls but because that is where his ability would match up.
How is a boy competing with girls any different than some unusually large brute of a girl competing with other girls?
Not that any of this applies to the topic which is swimming which is a single player sport and should be unisex along with track and field, bowling, golf etc
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On November 21 2011 02:19 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 02:08 Xiphos wrote:
Hold on a moment, is this team designed for female gender only? Or is it unisex? If its the prior then I can understand all the outrage about what had occurred. In a nutshell: state-sanctioned competitive swimming is segregated by gender. The team in question is designated as a girls team, which means that the swimmers on it can be sent to sectional, regional, and state girls' meets (and not to the boys' equivalent). Conversely, if it were a boys team, the swimmers on it could be sent to the boys' meets and not the girls' meets. Owing to a technicality of the law, schools that have a girls' team but not a boys' team, have to let boys onto the girls' team, which currently means not only that they train with the girls' team but that they compete in girls' events. As a number of people have said in this thread, a more logical solution would surely be to allow schools to send swimmers to the appropriate events, regardless of what gender their "team" is officially, and perhaps with this receiving media attention, the state athletics board will make that change.
Well maybe they should have a boy and girls team, or none at all. Problem solved.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/19/sports/boys-swimming-on-girls-teams-find-success-then-draw-ire.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=sports
The way it is now, the boys are taking recognition away from girls who have worked hard and deserve it
Pretty ironic, really.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On November 21 2011 02:32 macil222 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:12 Fenrax wrote:On November 20 2011 13:09 eLe.Long wrote:
So... Girls can join boys teams, but boys can't join girl's teams?
So much for equality, eh? You guys are effing stupid. Of course it goes only one way and not the other when it comes to competition. Girls are at a strict disadvantage in muscle and speed sports against boys and if a girl can compete despite that disadvantage then why not let her participate. Not stupid at all. You could apply your reasoning to boys who are thinner and weaker than most other boys and say they should be allowed to compete in girl's sports because they don't have an advantage. You reason correctly that boys are not stronger than girls...but boys are on average stronger than girls, and there is overlap. Why allow females to move over into male territory if they are suited for it but not allow males to move over into female territory if that is where they are more suited? What I am getting at is set standards for the sports and judge everyone as individuals and not based on gender. Then a strong girl could play football or lacrosse if she wants to and a short scrawny boy can play on a team made up of mostly girls..not because they are girls but because that is where his ability would match up. How is a boy competing with girls any different than some unusually large brute of a girl competing with other girls? Not that any of this applies to the topic which is swimming which is a single player sport and should be unisex along with track and field, bowling, golf etc
lol
Just compare every record of every track and field or swimming event between men and women. Then you should see why Unisex athletics and swimming are a stupid idea.
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On November 20 2011 14:00 Krikkitone wrote:
Best solution, eliminate sports from schools. (extra curricular activities can be extra curricular)
Brilliant. Free up all that money from the public sector to let the private sector do the sports stuff. I've been running races lately - 5ks, half marathons, 5 milers. They are very well organized by small groups of people with no public money. They are directly funded by the runners through entry fees and voluntary donations. Things work way better without government intervention.
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On November 21 2011 03:21 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 02:32 macil222 wrote:On November 20 2011 13:12 Fenrax wrote:On November 20 2011 13:09 eLe.Long wrote:
So... Girls can join boys teams, but boys can't join girl's teams?
So much for equality, eh? You guys are effing stupid. Of course it goes only one way and not the other when it comes to competition. Girls are at a strict disadvantage in muscle and speed sports against boys and if a girl can compete despite that disadvantage then why not let her participate. Not stupid at all. You could apply your reasoning to boys who are thinner and weaker than most other boys and say they should be allowed to compete in girl's sports because they don't have an advantage. You reason correctly that boys are not stronger than girls...but boys are on average stronger than girls, and there is overlap. Why allow females to move over into male territory if they are suited for it but not allow males to move over into female territory if that is where they are more suited? What I am getting at is set standards for the sports and judge everyone as individuals and not based on gender. Then a strong girl could play football or lacrosse if she wants to and a short scrawny boy can play on a team made up of mostly girls..not because they are girls but because that is where his ability would match up. How is a boy competing with girls any different than some unusually large brute of a girl competing with other girls? Not that any of this applies to the topic which is swimming which is a single player sport and should be unisex along with track and field, bowling, golf etc lol Just compare every record of every track and field or swimming event between men and women. Then you should see why Unisex athletics and swimming are a stupid idea.
OK what is your point though?
Each individual still runs or swims a given distance in the same amount of time regardless of who is running/swimming next to them?
Have you ever watched a marathon or seen the results? The men and women all run together. They report top male and female finishes separately. They can do that with swimming and track and field in school if people care enough but having separate teams where males and females train and compete separately is silly and it is a waste of time and money.
The fastest girl can still be recorded as the fastest girl..what is the problem with that? Will she be upset to see with her own eyes 5 guys swimming faster than her? Not that she would see if while she was swimming..but you get my point.
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Segregation is wrong. Anyone who disagrees with this is out of touch with the past 50 years. When has segregation ever been good? State sanctioned events and teams should not have segregation imbedded into them.
pro teams can do whatever they want, they are private. if i want i can found a very secluded and private team and participate in events sponsored by companies. however for the state to have segregated teams it is outrageous and conflicts with everything the human rights activists have worked for.
prohibiting persons (either boys or girls) to participate in events just because of their sex is sexist and preposterous when it comes from the government. people should not be judged by their sex, same way they are not judged for their race, place of origin etc. you cannot have half-measures that in the end only serve your purpose and needs.
there should only be mixed teams, not boy-girls. at least for state sanctioned events and government funded schools. pro teams make their own rules since its their money.
sure, because of male physical prowess (it sounds cheesy, i ddint mean to) the boys would win since a priori they are better gifted usually for sport and competitions. however this just goes to show that elite sports and championships are wrong. Sports are fun, and athleticism is a great human value. however competitions do nothing but force kids to go out of their way to become better, with consequences that we all know like drugs, steroids and injuries and fragile, broken down psychs of young athletes. just let the kids have fun, play sports for the exercise and only for that. then segregation is not needed since competition is not there.
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On November 21 2011 03:45 HowitZer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:00 Krikkitone wrote:
Best solution, eliminate sports from schools. (extra curricular activities can be extra curricular) Brilliant. Free up all that money from the public sector to let the private sector do the sports stuff. I've been running races lately - 5ks, half marathons, 5 milers. They are very well organized by small groups of people with no public money. They are directly funded by the runners through entry fees and voluntary donations. Things work way better without government intervention.
Yeah I agree with that. 2 years ago my town was laying off math and science teachers and the schools were trying to get a prop 2 1/2 override (in MA this is something that voters need to agree too in order to raise property taxes). Voters wouldn't do it. Then after they couldn't fire any more teachers they were going to make cuts to sports..once precious football was threatened people raised the taxes...it makes me sick.
We built a new track and football field behind the high school a few years ago for a the cost of over a million dollars. It already needs to be renovated because the selfish kids gouged up parts of the track by being careless with their equipment and they leave trash everywhere. If someone from the town wants to use the track in the evening after the teams finish practices, they will see water bottles and litter all over the place.
There is a charity event called relay for life, they can't use the high school track this year because it was deemed unsafe until the repairs are made.
To hell with publicly funded sports IMO.
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On November 21 2011 03:49 brokor wrote:
sure, because of male physical prowess (it sounds cheesy, i ddint mean to) the boys would win since a priori they are better gifted usually for sport and competitions. however this just goes to show that elite sports and championships are wrong. Sports are fun, and athleticism is a great human value. however competitions do nothing but force kids to go out of their way to become better, with consequences that we all know like drugs, steroids and injuries and fragile, broken down psychs of young athletes. just let the kids have fun, play sports for the exercise and only for that. then segregation is not needed since competition is not there.
What would be the point of any sport if people didn't care who won? What if MLG just showed a bunch of people playing starcraft vs the computer for no particular reason? I don't see how you could possibly argue against competition if you have ever been in a competetive situation. If you have a desire to beat others, you push yourself to be -your- best. Competition is a part of who we are, it is the reason we have survived as a species, and we should celebrate it.
But competition is undermined when others are given an unfair advantage: drugs, sex, cheating. Anyone who has competed seriously knows the demoralizing effect of feeling untalented, but it is a completely intangible quality, there is no way to account for it because dedication, mindset, and training methods are all intertwined with talent when it comes to performance. So we take care of what we can take care of: not allow advantages due to drugs, cheating, or sex (males competing against females).
And HS sports DO matter. They matter to these girls who dedicate a lot of time to their sport. The sport will teach them great values, and if some girls decide not to try because they're competing against boys anyway, they lose this, and we as a community should try to prevent this.
OK what is your point though?
Each individual still runs or swims a given distance in the same amount of time regardless of who is running/swimming next to them?
Have you ever watched a marathon or seen the results? The men and women all run together. They report top male and female finishes separately. They can do that with swimming and track and field in school if people care enough but having separate teams where males and females train and compete separately is silly and it is a waste of time and money.
The fastest girl can still be recorded as the fastest girl..what is the problem with that? Will she be upset to see with her own eyes 5 guys swimming faster than her? Not that she would see if while she was swimming..but you get my point.
There's a difference between a race and a time trial. True competition is about beating your opponents at all costs. This is damaged when there are multiple races occuring at the same time, particularly on a track. Marathons are different - they last forever so it's easier to do it all at once, and it's either too spread out for it to matter that there are 2 races going on or the primary competition is in a pack and is aware of where their opponents are. And if the scoring for swim meets are actually separated by gender like this, you might as well have separate races for boys and girls.
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Saus i do not agree with you. First of all you state that sex is an unfair advantage, and u put it in the same category as cheating and drugs. i dont know what they teach you but men are not cheaters. they just happened to be born this way. and it is not unfair advantage. it is an advantage they were born with. likewise someone is more talented than the other or has the physical gifts and characteristics to make him ideal for a sport. like in basketaball, ofcourse a tall muscular guy is gonna be better than a short scrawny one. so what? is this an unfair advantage?
let me give you some personal examples. i am 2m tall and 100kg, pretty fit i might add. i play basketaball with my friends like every 2 weeks. am i not supposed to play with them? ofc they are mostly average height. most of them have more experience in basketabll than i do, but i still best them quite easily. so according to you this is an unfair disadvantage. does it mean that they should protest and not "compete" with me. it is a sport. we do it for fun. noone cares if we win or loose in the end. the world is not gonna change if we play better/do better time in swimming. get over yourselves and enjoy sports as a fun leisure, and not a competition or means to self assurement.
on the other end i play football aswell (soccer for you). i am aweful at this game, cant balance myself for a shoot, cant run and hold the ball and cant even contorl the ball when it comes to my feet. i blame this on my big frame and huge limbs (no pun intended) although i could get better if i wanted/needed to. should i just avoid playing because of that? i mean come on you do need your coach to tell you you are the best or your mom to be proud of you to have fun in a sport. me and many others are in it for the fun. and i believe the kids and the athletes should do. whats the point of running fast or swimming long distances if you do not enjoy it. atleast on a school level. if you wanna get in the pro scene thats different. they are private teams they make their own rules, and you also make money out of it.
i have competed in sports. i remember crying when i failed to qualify for the national track and field in height jump(being a very very tall kid coaches got me under the wing and tried to promote me). i then realized (although i was like 12) how stupid competition in sports is. i got angry at school when my team lost. i get angry when i loose playing sc2/dota. doesnt mean i am gonna prohibit people from swimming/running (playing sc2/playing soccer for me) cause loosing makes me feel bad. deal with it.
competition is in human nature and is the force behind human progress you say. i will not disagree with this. but so many things are embedded in the human DNA. from murder to rape to prejudice to alienation. should the government promote all these? are you gonna base the values you pass on your kids on what would make them the best hunters or warriors 4000 years ago?
just to make ti clear, i urge myself to be the best when i care about something.who doesnt? but sometimes things just dont matter. and if you think what place you get in a swimming competition shapes your future in any way or form then you have your priorities mixed up.
Different leagues for boys/girls in sports is segregation(undisputable).
segregation is wrong(undisputable. even as a greek i have read about brown vs the board of education to know that).
end of discussion for me 
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Good for the boys for getting around the obviously sexist swimming team selection issues. I honestly agree with brokor in that separate leagues are sexist and segregated, because of how it is giving someone unequal treatment, just because they are a girl instead of a boy.
For me, it's the same thing as that one "all-girl" SC2 tourney a few weeks ago. $10K prize pool, plus equipment, but men couldn't join, just because they're, well, men. They claimed it was to give the girls a fair chance in competition, but that in itself was saying that girls aren't as good as boys at SC. For me, it's the same thing as this.
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On November 21 2011 05:07 brokor wrote:Different leagues for boys/girls in sports is segregation(undisputable). segregation is wrong(undisputable. even as a greek i have read about brown vs the board of education to know that). end of discussion for me
You have an insane lack of common sense. It's hard to even respond to these young males who somehow have got the idea in their heads that gender equality means there are no differences between genders. Equality comes in giving an equal opportunity to compete, learn, etc. It is also hilariously ignorant when people in this thread say that there are no physical differences between boys and girls at 16-17. At 16 I had run an 800m race faster than all but 3 women in the history of track and field, and I wasn't even close to the best in my state.
This school does not have a men's swimming team due to a lack of funding and interest amongst students. In 95% of cases like this, the individuals interested in the sport are able to communicate with their state high school sports association and gain the right to compete for another nearby school. Why that isn't the case here is beyond me. Of course the boys should be allowed to train with their women's team, that is not the issue. There are alternatives for competition, and the state HS association has failed these young men (and women) by not addressing the issue in another way.
Title IX is an imperfect law that creates tons of problems like this. The issue hasn't been properly addressed, however it is certainly preferable to the previous situation where there were few opportunities for young women to better themselves through competition at the collegiate level and anemic programs for them at the high school level.
It seems many people in this thread simply don't care about high school sports. That's fine, there are tons of extra-curriculars and hobbies that can be just as fulfilling as a HS sport. For many people though, high school sports can be a life-changing, character building experience. I remember a thread a while back where a track and field coach in Korea was interviewed and was judged by this forum to have been condescending and dismissive of e-sports. He was rightfully torn apart by angry starcraft players who were upset over his lack of perspective and appreciation for an activity that many people enjoy. If you are one of those people posting that HS sports don't matter, or that everyone should "get over it", get some perspective and think about how upset you would be if your opportunity to play starcraft was taken away from you or severely limited because somebody arbitrarily decided it didn't matter.
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Used to swim competitively for years so I'll throw my 2 cents in. But first can somebody explain to me why the swim meets don't have separate events for boys and girls? Are there not enough people swimming or what? Because "boys swimming on a girls team" is pretty much the norm. They're only separated when it comes time to compete. The part of the OP that says "if a school has a girls swim team but no boys swim team (due to insufficient funding/interest), then they have to let boys swim on the girls team" makes no sense to me. Girls practiced with us but it had nothing to do with funding, only skill.
If boys actually swim in the same heats as girls and can take their records away that's just retarded IMHO. It's pretty much a fact that boys have more natural muscle mass and are generally faster swimmers. That school must be a backwater if they can't recognize that. 
For me, it's the same thing as that one "all-girl" SC2 tourney a few weeks ago. $10K prize pool, plus equipment, but men couldn't join, just because they're, well, men. They claimed it was to give the girls a fair chance in competition, but that in itself was saying that girls aren't as good as boys at SC. For me, it's the same thing as this.
There's not enough data to say that girls are worse than men in SC2. There is plenty of data that says it is the case for swimming. So no, it's not the same thing at all.
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On November 21 2011 02:29 emythrel wrote:Until the age of 16-17, there isn't much of a difference between speed and strength between guys and girls in general. in the UK girls and boys can play most sports together until adulthood including football (soccer), in which girls put their bodies in danger. At least in swimming its just you and the water.
This post is crazy. In a sport like basketball, not only are top 16 year old boys miles better than the best women in the world, but playing together is extremely dangerous due to the size, speed, and strength differential (especially given the documented frequency with which women suffer career-threatening ligament injuries -- as much as ten times more than men, and that's when playing with competitors their own size). Soccer is the same way unless the men consciously go easy on the women.
For more physical sports like football, rugby, or hockey, your suggestion is even more absurd.
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On November 21 2011 06:43 Gradius wrote:Used to swim competitively for years so I'll throw my 2 cents in. But first can somebody explain to me why the swim meets don't have separate events for boys and girls? Are there not enough people swimming or what? Because "boys swimming on a girls team" is pretty much the norm. They're only separated when it comes time to compete. The part of the OP that says "if a school has a girls swim team but no boys swim team (due to insufficient funding/interest), then they have to let boys swim on the girls team" makes no sense to me. Girls practiced with us but it had nothing to do with funding, only skill. If boys actually swim in the same heats as girls and can take their records away that's just retarded IMHO. It's pretty much a fact that boys have more natural muscle mass and are generally faster swimmers. That school must be a backwater if they can't recognize that. The meets have separate events for boys and girls (or perhaps separate meets: I'm not 100% sure about that point), but the way the system is currently set up, a school can only send students to an event if they have an official team registered for that event--i.e. they can send students to the girls high school regional championships, etc. if they have a "girls' team" registered. But by law, if they don't have a boys' team, then any boy can sign up for the girls' team.
The upshot of this is that yes, boys actually swim in the same heats as girls and can take their records away, and a boy can be girls' state champion and all that. As you say, it seems a bit retarded, but it's not the fault of any individual school but of the interscholastic athletics system.
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On November 21 2011 06:31 Runnin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 05:07 brokor wrote:Different leagues for boys/girls in sports is segregation(undisputable). segregation is wrong(undisputable. even as a greek i have read about brown vs the board of education to know that). end of discussion for me You have an insane lack of common sense. It's hard to even respond to these young males who somehow have got the idea in their heads that gender equality means there are no differences between genders. Equality comes in giving an equal opportunity to compete, learn, etc. It is also hilariously ignorant when people in this thread say that there are no physical differences between boys and girls at 16-17. At 16 I had run an 800m race faster than all but 3 women in the history of track and field, and I wasn't even close to the best in my state. This school does not have a men's swimming team due to a lack of funding and interest amongst students. In 95% of cases like this, the individuals interested in the sport are able to communicate with their state high school sports association and gain the right to compete for another nearby school. Why that isn't the case here is beyond me. Of course the boys should be allowed to train with their women's team, that is not the issue. There are alternatives for competition, and the state HS association has failed these young men (and women) by not addressing the issue in another way. Title IX is an imperfect law that creates tons of problems like this. The issue hasn't been properly addressed, however it is certainly preferable to the previous situation where there were few opportunities for young women to better themselves through competition at the collegiate level and anemic programs for them at the high school level. It seems many people in this thread simply don't care about high school sports. That's fine, there are tons of extra-curriculars and hobbies that can be just as fulfilling as a HS sport. For many people though, high school sports can be a life-changing, character building experience. I remember a thread a while back where a track and field coach in Korea was interviewed and was judged by this forum to have been condescending and dismissive of e-sports. He was rightfully torn apart by angry starcraft players who were upset over his lack of perspective and appreciation for an activity that many people enjoy. If you are one of those people posting that HS sports don't matter, or that everyone should "get over it", get some perspective and think about how upset you would be if your opportunity to play starcraft was taken away from you or severely limited because somebody arbitrarily decided it didn't matter.
Yo you are mixing it up again. noone said anything about limiting their access to swimming. we all want them to practise their favourite hobby. you are saying "if your opportunity to play starcraft was taken away from you or severely limited because somebody arbitrarily decided it didn't matter". well it is nothing like that. i never said dont let them swim. i said dont compete at swimming. all these young boys and girls swim for the exercise and because it is fun for them. this never has to change. it is the competition aspect i have a problem with. so i do not know where your post came from. noone said to stop hs sports. just the competition that usually comes with it.
Also, i bet in the 50's there was someone thinking just like you only instead of "gender difference" he was talking about "race difference" and that's the reason why universities and schools were segregated.
equality doesnt mean there are no differences between genders (or race,nationality, w/e). it means that the state treats them all equally, no matter what those differences are. even if these differences are well known and akcnowledged equality means different groups are treated as if those differences weren't there. if we tailor society and state affairs to everyone's differences we are back to the dark ages. i bet some decades ago there were "documented differences" between races aswell. thankfully society has moved past that. let's hope we can aswell in the subject of gender equality.
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On November 21 2011 07:36 brokor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 06:31 Runnin wrote:On November 21 2011 05:07 brokor wrote:Different leagues for boys/girls in sports is segregation(undisputable). segregation is wrong(undisputable. even as a greek i have read about brown vs the board of education to know that). end of discussion for me You have an insane lack of common sense. It's hard to even respond to these young males who somehow have got the idea in their heads that gender equality means there are no differences between genders. Equality comes in giving an equal opportunity to compete, learn, etc. It is also hilariously ignorant when people in this thread say that there are no physical differences between boys and girls at 16-17. At 16 I had run an 800m race faster than all but 3 women in the history of track and field, and I wasn't even close to the best in my state. This school does not have a men's swimming team due to a lack of funding and interest amongst students. In 95% of cases like this, the individuals interested in the sport are able to communicate with their state high school sports association and gain the right to compete for another nearby school. Why that isn't the case here is beyond me. Of course the boys should be allowed to train with their women's team, that is not the issue. There are alternatives for competition, and the state HS association has failed these young men (and women) by not addressing the issue in another way. Title IX is an imperfect law that creates tons of problems like this. The issue hasn't been properly addressed, however it is certainly preferable to the previous situation where there were few opportunities for young women to better themselves through competition at the collegiate level and anemic programs for them at the high school level. It seems many people in this thread simply don't care about high school sports. That's fine, there are tons of extra-curriculars and hobbies that can be just as fulfilling as a HS sport. For many people though, high school sports can be a life-changing, character building experience. I remember a thread a while back where a track and field coach in Korea was interviewed and was judged by this forum to have been condescending and dismissive of e-sports. He was rightfully torn apart by angry starcraft players who were upset over his lack of perspective and appreciation for an activity that many people enjoy. If you are one of those people posting that HS sports don't matter, or that everyone should "get over it", get some perspective and think about how upset you would be if your opportunity to play starcraft was taken away from you or severely limited because somebody arbitrarily decided it didn't matter. Yo you are mixing it up again. noone said anything about limiting their access to swimming. we all want them to practise their favourite hobby. you are saying "if your opportunity to play starcraft was taken away from you or severely limited because somebody arbitrarily decided it didn't matter". well it is nothing like that. i never said dont let them swim. i said dont compete at swimming. all these young boys and girls swim for the exercise and because it is fun for them. this never has to change. it is the competition aspect i have a problem with. so i do not know where your post came from. noone said to stop hs sports. just the competition that usually comes with it. Also, i bet in the 50's there was someone thinking just like you only instead of "gender difference" he was talking about "race difference" and that's the reason why universities and schools were segregated. equality doesnt mean there are no differences between genders (or race,nationality, w/e). it means that the state treats them all equally, no matter what those differences are. even if these differences are well known and akcnowledged equality means different groups are treated as if those differences weren't there. if we tailor society and state affairs to everyone's differences we are back to the dark ages. i bet some decades ago there were "documented differences" between races aswell. thankfully society has moved past that. let's hope we can aswell in the subject of gender equality.
Equality does not mean that the state ignores differences between genders. That is absurd and unintelligent to even claim that. Equality means that the state does what it can to provide equally in spite of differences - aka women deserve the same funding for hs sports as men, which results in some schools having to cut mens swimming because sports like football do not have the support to provide a female equivalent. The result is a mens football team and a women's swimming team - an imperfect solution but as I stated the law is not ideal at the moment.
For you to claim that pointing out gender differences is the equivalent of societal racism against minorities in the past is one of the most ignorant, offensive, and downright stupid comments I have ever read.
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On November 21 2011 07:31 qrs wrote:The meets have separate events for boys and girls (or perhaps separate meets: I'm not 100% sure about that point), but the way the system is currently set up, a school can only send students to an event if they have an official team registered for that event--i.e. they can send students to the girls high school regional championships, etc. if they have a "girls' team" registered. But by law, if they don't have a boys' team, then any boy can sign up for the girls' team.
The upshot of this is that yes, boys actually swim in the same heats as girls and can take their records away, and a boy can be girls' state champion and all that. As you say, it seems a bit retarded, but it's not the fault of any individual school but of the interscholastic athletics system.
Ah ok. I wonder if that's just a Massachusetts thing then. Or is it that the school isn't filling out the paperwork for having an official "boys team"?
Yo you are mixing it up again. noone said anything about limiting their access to swimming. we all want them to practise their favourite hobby. you are saying "if your opportunity to play starcraft was taken away from you or severely limited because somebody arbitrarily decided it didn't matter". well it is nothing like that. i never said dont let them swim. i said dont compete at swimming. all these young boys and girls swim for the exercise and because it is fun for them. this never has to change. it is the competition aspect i have a problem with. so i do not know where your post came from. noone said to stop hs sports. just the competition that usually comes with it.
You do realize that we are talking about competitive swimming, not segregation in public pools right? Because I can guarantee you that people mostly swim because of the competition. They're trying to get scholarships to college and improve on best times.
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