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1019 Posts
On July 23 2012 23:56 Cloud9157 wrote:
You claim they're not important, but how important is math really? Outside of basic division/multiplication/addition/subtraction, when do you really use math unless your job actually requires it? Do you need to know the Pythagorean Theorem, or what a quadratic equation is? Chances are pretty good that you don't.
This is such a stupid argument. I could make an argument just as stupid about athletics. Schools and public institutions encourage math education because it leads to important careers vital to the nation and more importantly learning math develops problem solving and critical thinking skills that people need for whatever job they are going to get. Nobody learns the pythagorean theorem because they ask for it at work; they learn it for the sake of learning.
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On July 23 2012 23:56 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 13:41 Whitewing wrote:On July 14 2012 12:46 TommyP wrote:On July 14 2012 12:24 Whitewing wrote:On July 14 2012 11:05 TommyP wrote:On July 14 2012 10:43 Whitewing wrote:On July 14 2012 06:08 ZasZ. wrote:On July 13 2012 15:48 Whitewing wrote:On July 13 2012 13:31 shawster wrote:On July 13 2012 13:27 Whitewing wrote:
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Football should adopt the baseball minor league format, rather than taking students from college. People who want to go pro in football would go play in the minor league for it. People shouldn't be going to college for something non-academic like sports, and taking scholarship money that should go to students there for academics.
It would help with issues like this too. well in baseball there is collegiate base ball as well... theoretically the idea is alright, but in reality collegiate football is such a phenomenon in the U.S. that it'll probably never change. it took them 70 years to put in a damn play off system for god sakes. Collegiate baseball isn't for students who want a pro-career in baseball, that's what the minor leagues are for. People shouldn't be going to college (an institution for academics) on a football scholarship, taking money that could go to students there for academics, so they can get a job as a pro-football player which has no need for academics whatsoever. That's pretty short-sighted of you. Many players shoot for an athletic scholarship because it is the only way they can get a college education coming from a poor background. The vast majority of college athletes never become professional athletes, especially at lower tier Division 1 schools. I think my Division 1 school sent, at most, 1 or 2 people to the NFL every year. Everybody else on the team has to get a real job, and guess what you need for that? A college education! Whether you like it or not (you seem to not like sports), these athletic programs bring in a lot of money to the universities. There is corruption involved, but that is no different from any other area of society and needs to be treated on a case-by-case basis, not by turning the system on its head. I don't dislike sports, they're a good form of entertainment and promote healthy living for those not abusing steroids. I just don't see any academic value in them, and would prefer that they be kept separate from academic institutions. Why?? So schools dont make money and good/hard working kids who only could go to college due to sports, would still be in the ghetto. Why? Because of this absurd, ridiculous sports culture that dominates almost every academic institution in the country. You realize high school students get a day off from school to cheer for their football team? This culture is ridiculous, and it has to stop. Sports are valuable as a form of entertainment and as a good way for people to stay healthy, and that's pretty much it. They are raised up on this pedestal as if they're literally holy in this country. Shit like this asshole touching little kids and then having the staff cover for him happens because of this bullshit culture. Good hardworking kids should be able to get into college without sports if they apply themselves to their academics. I know for a fact that many fantastic schools like Harvard only charge based on your ability to pay if you get into the school. If your issue is with them being able to afford it, then rather than emphasizing sports as a way for them to get into it, we should be working on making school more affordable for students who work hard on academics. Our country is lagging behind so many others in terms of academics because we don't seem to value it. Maybe it's time that changed. Our country is lagging behind in everything except college. We have the best universities in the world. For every 1 great university in another country there are like 10 in america. Just because you dont like sports doesnt mean people dont. I dont think american culture had anything to do with a pedophile raping kids and his friends covering it up because they were afriad for their own selves and reputations. Our country has the best universities, but guess who these best universities are educating? If you guessed foreigners, you guessed right. Look at how many students in the United States graduate college with a degree in an actual academic subject (not visual or performing arts), like a STEM degree, or a management or social and behavioral science degree, or something else that's academic in nature. The majority of U.S. citizens who attend college attend for visual and performing arts, or a similar non academic subject. Why is that? Because our culture frowns on academics and academically inclined people. They're labeled as 'nerds' or 'geeks', while the sport jocks are 'popular'. There's nothing wrong with visual and performing arts degrees, but our culture is emphasizing things like entertainment and sports while not emphasizing actual academics, and it's becoming quite obvious when you start looking at the world economy, and areas of technological development (you might notice India has it's own silicon valley now, guess where those workers got their education?). This is not a winning combination in the long run, it's unsustainable and it's going to cause serious issues down the line. Yeah, I know, our consumerist culture tells you want things now and not give a shit about later, but this is a serious problem. Having the best universities is irrelevant when location has no real effect on who attends, these schools take the best students, and many of them aren't from the U.S. They might as well be located overseas. Again, I don't hate sports, but I also don't raise it to this ridiculous level that it's fans seem to think it deserves (Yes, I watch sports too). Sports simply are not important, they're nice to have and fun, but they aren't important, and this absurd drive our culture has to promote sports constantly is ridiculous. It doesn't matter that people like it, I like Burger King, but I would never argue that it's a healthy thing. Just look at your average newspaper: how much of it is taken up by sports? How much of it is taken up by academics or academic achievements? I've lost track of the amount of times someone I know has earned a very impressive academic achievement and had nobody care (win the national science fair? High school math team win for the state? Ignored!), while the sports team does nothing out of the ordinary and gets 100 times the attention. Why did the people higher up cover for Sandusky? Because he was valuable to their sports program. That's disgusting. Your example of newspapers giving more attention to sports doesn't really explain anything. Papers report on things people actually find interesting. Does anyone honestly care that the local high school math team won state? Probably not enough to receive more than a short story, because frankly, what is there to report? They went to state, beat so and so, heres some quotes from members/coach, done. People don't like math and science in general. You can call that a problem if you want, but something as simple as sports is easy to follow. You claim they're not important, but how important is math really? Outside of basic division/multiplication/addition/subtraction, when do you really use math unless your job actually requires it? Do you need to know the Pythagorean Theorem, or what a quadratic equation is? Chances are pretty good that you don't.
Yeah, math isn't important. Let's stop educating our youth on anything they don't need to know and watch as progress in pretty much every area grinds to a total halt.
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There's a good deal in there for the current players.
They can say.. screw it I'm done. But I'm staying at Penn State. And keeping my money.
But they never have to play football again.
All the guys who were 2nd/3rd deep juniors and senior...who really don't have a shot at going pro. I'm betting they will take that deal. All the guys who do have a shot at going pro are GONE.
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On July 24 2012 00:08 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:56 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 14 2012 13:41 Whitewing wrote:On July 14 2012 12:46 TommyP wrote:On July 14 2012 12:24 Whitewing wrote:On July 14 2012 11:05 TommyP wrote:On July 14 2012 10:43 Whitewing wrote:On July 14 2012 06:08 ZasZ. wrote:On July 13 2012 15:48 Whitewing wrote:On July 13 2012 13:31 shawster wrote:
[quote]
well in baseball there is collegiate base ball as well...
theoretically the idea is alright, but in reality collegiate football is such a phenomenon in the U.S. that it'll probably never change. it took them 70 years to put in a damn play off system for god sakes. Collegiate baseball isn't for students who want a pro-career in baseball, that's what the minor leagues are for. People shouldn't be going to college (an institution for academics) on a football scholarship, taking money that could go to students there for academics, so they can get a job as a pro-football player which has no need for academics whatsoever. That's pretty short-sighted of you. Many players shoot for an athletic scholarship because it is the only way they can get a college education coming from a poor background. The vast majority of college athletes never become professional athletes, especially at lower tier Division 1 schools. I think my Division 1 school sent, at most, 1 or 2 people to the NFL every year. Everybody else on the team has to get a real job, and guess what you need for that? A college education! Whether you like it or not (you seem to not like sports), these athletic programs bring in a lot of money to the universities. There is corruption involved, but that is no different from any other area of society and needs to be treated on a case-by-case basis, not by turning the system on its head. I don't dislike sports, they're a good form of entertainment and promote healthy living for those not abusing steroids. I just don't see any academic value in them, and would prefer that they be kept separate from academic institutions. Why?? So schools dont make money and good/hard working kids who only could go to college due to sports, would still be in the ghetto. Why? Because of this absurd, ridiculous sports culture that dominates almost every academic institution in the country. You realize high school students get a day off from school to cheer for their football team? This culture is ridiculous, and it has to stop. Sports are valuable as a form of entertainment and as a good way for people to stay healthy, and that's pretty much it. They are raised up on this pedestal as if they're literally holy in this country. Shit like this asshole touching little kids and then having the staff cover for him happens because of this bullshit culture. Good hardworking kids should be able to get into college without sports if they apply themselves to their academics. I know for a fact that many fantastic schools like Harvard only charge based on your ability to pay if you get into the school. If your issue is with them being able to afford it, then rather than emphasizing sports as a way for them to get into it, we should be working on making school more affordable for students who work hard on academics. Our country is lagging behind so many others in terms of academics because we don't seem to value it. Maybe it's time that changed. Our country is lagging behind in everything except college. We have the best universities in the world. For every 1 great university in another country there are like 10 in america. Just because you dont like sports doesnt mean people dont. I dont think american culture had anything to do with a pedophile raping kids and his friends covering it up because they were afriad for their own selves and reputations. Our country has the best universities, but guess who these best universities are educating? If you guessed foreigners, you guessed right. Look at how many students in the United States graduate college with a degree in an actual academic subject (not visual or performing arts), like a STEM degree, or a management or social and behavioral science degree, or something else that's academic in nature. The majority of U.S. citizens who attend college attend for visual and performing arts, or a similar non academic subject. Why is that? Because our culture frowns on academics and academically inclined people. They're labeled as 'nerds' or 'geeks', while the sport jocks are 'popular'. There's nothing wrong with visual and performing arts degrees, but our culture is emphasizing things like entertainment and sports while not emphasizing actual academics, and it's becoming quite obvious when you start looking at the world economy, and areas of technological development (you might notice India has it's own silicon valley now, guess where those workers got their education?). This is not a winning combination in the long run, it's unsustainable and it's going to cause serious issues down the line. Yeah, I know, our consumerist culture tells you want things now and not give a shit about later, but this is a serious problem. Having the best universities is irrelevant when location has no real effect on who attends, these schools take the best students, and many of them aren't from the U.S. They might as well be located overseas. Again, I don't hate sports, but I also don't raise it to this ridiculous level that it's fans seem to think it deserves (Yes, I watch sports too). Sports simply are not important, they're nice to have and fun, but they aren't important, and this absurd drive our culture has to promote sports constantly is ridiculous. It doesn't matter that people like it, I like Burger King, but I would never argue that it's a healthy thing. Just look at your average newspaper: how much of it is taken up by sports? How much of it is taken up by academics or academic achievements? I've lost track of the amount of times someone I know has earned a very impressive academic achievement and had nobody care (win the national science fair? High school math team win for the state? Ignored!), while the sports team does nothing out of the ordinary and gets 100 times the attention. Why did the people higher up cover for Sandusky? Because he was valuable to their sports program. That's disgusting. Your example of newspapers giving more attention to sports doesn't really explain anything. Papers report on things people actually find interesting. Does anyone honestly care that the local high school math team won state? Probably not enough to receive more than a short story, because frankly, what is there to report? They went to state, beat so and so, heres some quotes from members/coach, done. People don't like math and science in general. You can call that a problem if you want, but something as simple as sports is easy to follow. You claim they're not important, but how important is math really? Outside of basic division/multiplication/addition/subtraction, when do you really use math unless your job actually requires it? Do you need to know the Pythagorean Theorem, or what a quadratic equation is? Chances are pretty good that you don't. Yeah, math isn't important. Let's stop educating our youth on anything they don't need to know and watch as progress in pretty much every area grinds to a total halt.
On a sidenote, abolishing schools might be a legit tactics how we might catch up with South Korea in terms of competitive gaming!
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On July 23 2012 23:38 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:31 Zorkmid wrote:
This program should have received the death penalty just like SMU.
Nice slap on the wrist NCAA.
At least they got the benefactor of the fine correct. I don't think you understand how severe this is. This is essentially worse than a one year death penalty that SMU received. 5 years from now coming off this they will be a team with MAC level talent at best. No top level players are going to go to Penn St for the next three years at least, no bowl games or conference championship games is a huge deal. On top of that they can only take 15 players per year, so the will have way less scholarship players and much lower level players than they traditionally have had. O and throw in that all current players will be allowed to stop playing and keep their schollies or transfer immediately without penalty. And it wouldn't surprise me is the B10 threw on some additional sanctions on during their news conference at 11AM EST
They're only losing 10 scholarships a year for four years. It's not small, but it is certainly not death penalty level. Not even close. I think they could have and should have done more.
Is there any word on whether or not they can do as USC did and stagger when they take the bowl ban and scholarship hit? Because that will definitely determine how severe the penalties are
stolen from another forum about how this isn't even close to the SMU death penalty:
"I don't see how.
The death penalty meant zero scholarships for the first year (85). This penalty is 80 scholarships total.
The death penalty meant no football, period, and then no home games the next season. This means just no bowl games.
The death penalty meant no football revenue for a year, then no home game revenue for the next year. The $60 million fine is equivalent to just one year of football revenue.
The only way you can argue that this penalty is harsher is the vacated wins, which I don't think is a serious penalty for the school's football program. That's more about dismantling Paterno's history. "
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Big 10 (the conferecne itself) is tacking on $13 million, so the grand total is $73 million. It looks like they are clawing back previous bowl revenues from PSU.
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I took a quick skim and
>university
>small kids
>molest
>since 1998
well this is some fucked up crazy shit.
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On July 23 2012 23:17 Hawk wrote:http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--penn-state-sanctions-mark-emmert-four-year-bowl-ban-60-million-fine.htmlFor the lazy: • $60 million fine (roughly what the football team takes in annually). This will be used to establish an endowment to help child sexual abuse victims • Loss of 10 scholarships (25 to 15) annually • Four-year postseason ban • Vacating all wins from 1998-2011. Bowden is now the #1 in all time wins • Students can transfer penalty free Honestly, who gives a shit about the wins. They should have stripped them of all scholarships for four years. Among the several things that the cover up was done to protect (Paterno's legacy, the school's rep, alumni donation revenue), one of the chief things was recruiting, which would have been impacted by that coming to light in 1998. By students you mean football players.
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On July 24 2012 00:00 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:56 Cloud9157 wrote:
You claim they're not important, but how important is math really? Outside of basic division/multiplication/addition/subtraction, when do you really use math unless your job actually requires it? Do you need to know the Pythagorean Theorem, or what a quadratic equation is? Chances are pretty good that you don't.
This is such a stupid argument. I could make an argument just as stupid about athletics. Schools and public institutions encourage math education because it leads to important careers vital to the nation and more importantly learning math develops problem solving and critical thinking skills that people need for whatever job they are going to get. Nobody learns the pythagorean theorem because they ask for it at work; they learn it for the sake of learning.
Is that really true though; surely there are other areas where students learn to use critical thinking or general problem solving skills. People can do critical thinking in creating a short film for their media class, writing computer programs, analyzing great classics in English class or learning to work as a team in a fast-paced game of soccer or rugby. And even if its not on the same level as solving a complex math equation, why would they need to think at that level anyways? If they generally won't need to think on that level for most of their life, then there's no reason to push them to do so. Not everyone needs to be a deep thinker; it may be far more important for some to develop artistic or social skills to a higher level than critical thinking/problem solving.
I think the better argument is simply that kids don't know what they're going to be in the future, and that they could quickly change their mind when they realize the field they thought they wanted to enter wasn't as good as they had imagined. So therefore everyone needs basic training in a number of areas.
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On July 23 2012 23:55 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:40 Bigtony wrote:
It wouldn't be right to do penalties so severe that the academic portion of the school would be negatively affected. The administration of Penn State is as responsible for this unfathomable crime as the football program is.
So that means thousands (literally thousands) of students should be negatively effected for something which they had no knowledge or part in? Sorry, making other innocent people suffer is not the answer here.
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On July 23 2012 23:55 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:40 Bigtony wrote:
It wouldn't be right to do penalties so severe that the academic portion of the school would be negatively affected. The administration of Penn State is as responsible for this unfathomable crime as the football program is. I would think a vast majority of the professors ( barring those on the administration ) PhD candidates and post docs are not involved with the cover-up let alone actually give a fuck about the football program besides what it does for alumni donor program reputation and small profits it gives ( which means more research money ). They shouldn't really have to suffer.
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On July 24 2012 00:53 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:55 Zorkmid wrote:On July 23 2012 23:40 Bigtony wrote:
It wouldn't be right to do penalties so severe that the academic portion of the school would be negatively affected. The administration of Penn State is as responsible for this unfathomable crime as the football program is. So that means thousands (literally thousands) of students should be negatively effected for something which they had no knowledge or part in? Sorry, making other innocent people suffer is not the answer here.
Not sure where I said any of that stuff about wanting innocent people to suffer. The academic portion of the school WILL suffer as a result of this, regardless of any specific penalties.
Also, it's affected not effected.
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I don't really understand this. JoePa is gone. Spanier is gone. Sandusky is in jail and 2 other administrators are still facing charges. Is there anyone left at Penn State who knew what was going on and failed to act? Who exactly are we punishing here? Certainly the Board of Trustees failed in its oversight, but how do these football punishments apply to them?
I think this is all just a big witch hunt. Terrible things happened and so now we feel the need to blame the institution where it happened, despite the fact that all of the individuals who perpetrated the crime or covered it up (to our knowledge) were fired or are in prison. I just don't understand how this has anything to do with the NCAA or football.
Apparently, the 'culture' at Penn State is to blame for this incident. Can anyone point to exactly how this culture contributed? Joe Paterno was above reproach because no one had any reason to believe otherwise; he had always conducted himself with honesty and integrity. What exactly are we advocating here, that a university should be perpetually suspicious of the positive qualities of its football staff?
The fact is that this had nothing to do with football and should've been handled in a court of law and not by the NCAA or the Big 10.
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The fine is from the football budget. It also represents less thatn 2% of the school's budget. The most damage it would do to non-football players is that other sport programs might get a little less support, or it comes from elsewhere in the budget. Players already on the team get to transfer with scholarships with no penalty. It is no where near thousands of students.
Alumni donations drying up has a lot more to do with the school valuing its rep, football and dollars from donors more than doing the right thing. Anyone not donating because the football program is going to be mediocre now has the same mentality that enabled this shit.
And finally, what exactly is an apt punishment in this case?
When some guy with a family goes out and murders someone, and gets tossed in jail for life, his wife and children grow up without him. A drunk driver kills someone and leaves his wife with no income for the 10 years he is in jail.
Should we not punish people because others in that person's web might suffer?
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With the NCAA it all comes down to this phrase... Lack of Institutional Control
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On July 24 2012 01:14 Hawk wrote:
Should we not punish people because others in that person's web might suffer?
But in this case, we aren't even punishing the right people. We're punishing the name of Penn State without any reflection of who was actually at fault.
I think the families of the victims should sue the pants off of Penn State (and I think that they are) and receive millions of dollars in damages as a result of the negligence of the Penn State Board of Trustees. That doesn't mean that I think the NCAA and Big 10 should also go in for their pound of flesh.
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On July 24 2012 01:13 Anytus wrote:
The fact is that this had nothing to do with football and should've been handled in a court of law and not by the NCAA or the Big 10.
Totally and completely wrong.
It wasn't just football, but you're insane if you don't think it was one of the chief reasons that this was swept under the rug rather than being reported and followed up on.
Even if the school did the right thing initially, there would be bad publicity. Paterno and the football program had always touted how they've never had a scandal, ever. This was all over their recruitment letters. Having it be known that a long time and popular defensive coordinator was using his position of power to fuck little boys would blow any recruiting scandal out of the water.
Things at stake when this first came to light in 1998: Paterno's legacy, football recruiting, Paterno's good friend, PSU's repuation, alumni donation revenue stream and enrollment.
All these people and things benefited from it never being mentioned in public.
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On July 24 2012 01:21 Anytus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 01:14 Hawk wrote:
Should we not punish people because others in that person's web might suffer?
But in this case, we aren't even punishing the right people. We're punishing the name of Penn State without any reflection of who was actually at fault. I think the families of the victims should sue the pants off of Penn State (and I think that they are) and receive millions of dollars in damages as a result of the negligence of the Penn State Board of Trustees. That doesn't mean that I think the NCAA and Big 10 should also go in for their pound of flesh.
it is the culture of football and university image above all else that is being punished. The NCAA is totally right to come in because the school and admins swept this under the rug to not be at a competitive disadvantage due to the pr hit they'd take
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On July 24 2012 00:58 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 00:53 Bigtony wrote:On July 23 2012 23:55 Zorkmid wrote:On July 23 2012 23:40 Bigtony wrote:
It wouldn't be right to do penalties so severe that the academic portion of the school would be negatively affected. The administration of Penn State is as responsible for this unfathomable crime as the football program is. So that means thousands (literally thousands) of students should be negatively effected for something which they had no knowledge or part in? Sorry, making other innocent people suffer is not the answer here. Not sure where I said any of that stuff about wanting innocent people to suffer. The academic portion of the school WILL suffer as a result of this, regardless of any specific penalties. Also, it's affected not effected.
Uh maybe the part where you said that the administration of the school (IE: the academic portion) was to blame? How would the academic portion of the school be responsible for this? Useless post, seriously.
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EPT
