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On July 24 2012 02:08 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 00:58 Zorkmid wrote:On July 24 2012 00:53 Bigtony wrote:On July 23 2012 23:55 Zorkmid wrote:On July 23 2012 23:40 Bigtony wrote:
It wouldn't be right to do penalties so severe that the academic portion of the school would be negatively affected. The administration of Penn State is as responsible for this unfathomable crime as the football program is. So that means thousands (literally thousands) of students should be negatively effected for something which they had no knowledge or part in? Sorry, making other innocent people suffer is not the answer here. Not sure where I said any of that stuff about wanting innocent people to suffer. The academic portion of the school WILL suffer as a result of this, regardless of any specific penalties. Also, it's affected not effected. Uh maybe the part where you said that the administration of the school (IE: the academic portion) was to blame? How would the academic portion of the school be responsible for this? Useless post, seriously.
You misunderstand. Administration =/ academic
Org Chart - (but all universities basically run this way)
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Penn State Athletics and Penn State University are not seperate entities.
Just saiyan.
Some of you people think they are.
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Insane punishment. Probably warranted as well. I don't see why people don't think the NCAA should have any involvement. If it wasn't for the college wanting to save damage to it's football program and all it's benefits that dude would have been in jail over a decade ago. The program was too big and too fucked up.
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On July 24 2012 01:13 Anytus wrote:
I don't really understand this. JoePa is gone. Spanier is gone. Sandusky is in jail and 2 other administrators are still facing charges. Is there anyone left at Penn State who knew what was going on and failed to act? Who exactly are we punishing here? Certainly the Board of Trustees failed in its oversight, but how do these football punishments apply to them?
I think this is all just a big witch hunt. Terrible things happened and so now we feel the need to blame the institution where it happened, despite the fact that all of the individuals who perpetrated the crime or covered it up (to our knowledge) were fired or are in prison. I just don't understand how this has anything to do with the NCAA or football.
Apparently, the 'culture' at Penn State is to blame for this incident. Can anyone point to exactly how this culture contributed? Joe Paterno was above reproach because no one had any reason to believe otherwise; he had always conducted himself with honesty and integrity. What exactly are we advocating here, that a university should be perpetually suspicious of the positive qualities of its football staff?
The fact is that this had nothing to do with football and should've been handled in a court of law and not by the NCAA or the Big 10.
You don't see how the culture contributed? You didn't read the parts in the Freeh report about how the janitors were afraid to report Sandusky because they were scared of Paterno? You didn't read about the school administrator who was fired because she clashed with Paterno about him wanting to keep disciplinary measures in-house? You didn't see all those dumbshit cultists, err students, rioting after Paterno was fired? You didn't read the interviews with Penn State students in just about any article written about the scandal? Or those students protecting the statue last week?
Penn State's culture is being a cult-like entity that is closed to outside influence. The institution is placed above all. Behavior is handled in house. People inside the institution are blind to the humanity outside their bubble.
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While most of the punishment is warranted, I will never be ok with taking away victories from someone's record. These events were completely off the field and had nothing to do with on-field performance whatsoever. Those players and that coach earned those victories legitimately, regardless of what the coaches and/or administration did off the field.
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On July 24 2012 03:13 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 01:13 Anytus wrote:
I don't really understand this. JoePa is gone. Spanier is gone. Sandusky is in jail and 2 other administrators are still facing charges. Is there anyone left at Penn State who knew what was going on and failed to act? Who exactly are we punishing here? Certainly the Board of Trustees failed in its oversight, but how do these football punishments apply to them?
I think this is all just a big witch hunt. Terrible things happened and so now we feel the need to blame the institution where it happened, despite the fact that all of the individuals who perpetrated the crime or covered it up (to our knowledge) were fired or are in prison. I just don't understand how this has anything to do with the NCAA or football.
Apparently, the 'culture' at Penn State is to blame for this incident. Can anyone point to exactly how this culture contributed? Joe Paterno was above reproach because no one had any reason to believe otherwise; he had always conducted himself with honesty and integrity. What exactly are we advocating here, that a university should be perpetually suspicious of the positive qualities of its football staff?
The fact is that this had nothing to do with football and should've been handled in a court of law and not by the NCAA or the Big 10. You don't see how the culture contributed? You didn't read the parts in the Freeh report about how the janitors were afraid to report Sandusky because they were scared of Paterno? You didn't read about the school administrator who was fired because she clashed with Paterno about him wanting to keep disciplinary measures in-house? You didn't see all those dumbshit cultists, err students, rioting after Paterno was fired? You didn't read the interviews with Penn State students in just about any article written about the scandal? Or those students protecting the statue last week? Penn State's culture is being a cult-like entity that is closed to outside influence. The institution is placed above all. Behavior is handled in house. People inside the institution are blind to the humanity outside their bubble.
Purely curious, are you involved in Penn State somehow? Student, staff?
But talking about Athletic departments,
I work in Administration at a Big10 school, and I will tell you that the Athletics programs in these places are treated like kings from the University administration (in some ways..) . They are given huge amounts of money and leeway, because football is the school's bread and butter. (They make... so much money... ) and one of the most visible symbols of a school (in Penn State, probably THE most)
So, they can and do directly impact a school. I think it would be safe to assume that if you affected the Athletics department it would affect the University in it's entirety, as every discussion of changing anything in Athletics is always directly correlated to affecting the rest of the University. At least every decision I've heard..
Imagine all those kids who started looking for colleges and now don't want to go to Penn State "just because". I can see especially how all these sanctions against the school can really hurt it's marketability.
EDIT: I accidentally a apostrophe and clarified some things.
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On July 24 2012 03:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:
While most of the punishment is warranted, I will never be ok with taking away victories from someone's record. These events were completely off the field and had nothing to do with on-field performance whatsoever. Those players and that coach earned those victories legitimately, regardless of what the coaches and/or administration did off the field.
Of course it's hard to say, but who knows what the effect would have been on the football program if Sandusky's crimes were made public when they should have in 1998. It could have easily hurt recruitment or had NCAA action back then as well. Who knows maybe Paterno himself would have been punished in some way. That all could have certainly affected on-field performance in the subsequent years. There's a reason it was all swept under the rug.
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On July 24 2012 03:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:
While most of the punishment is warranted, I will never be ok with taking away victories from someone's record. These events were completely off the field and had nothing to do with on-field performance whatsoever. Those players and that coach earned those victories legitimately, regardless of what the coaches and/or administration did off the field.
So you're good with Barry Bonds at 762?
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I think the victories thing is simply to kick JoePa off of what remains of that pedastal he was on.
Someone on another forum said something to the extent of that it was done so that when people read over the record books, there's an asterisk next to his name so that this whole thing will never be forgotten and hoepfully, others won't put football/school image ahead of more pressing stuff like child rape ever again
Honestly, I'm indifferent to the record thing. I think it's kind of dumb. I hated it for when USC got hit for the Bush scandal. I do wish though they got hit harder on the scholarship thing instead of the fines. PSU will play and draw crowds no matter what. There isn't shit else to do there and it is still the biggest draw. The fines will have a much more broad effect on athletics. But school is also stupid rich. I don't think it will be that huge. I read that part of the agreement is that the school can't axe other sports to compensate for the loss of revenue in the football program.
On July 24 2012 03:32 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 03:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:
While most of the punishment is warranted, I will never be ok with taking away victories from someone's record. These events were completely off the field and had nothing to do with on-field performance whatsoever. Those players and that coach earned those victories legitimately, regardless of what the coaches and/or administration did off the field. So you're good with Barry Bonds at 762?
That's a totally different animal though. It stands to reason that a scandal will fuck with recruiting, even if no punishments are levied. Saucing for a decade gives you 40lbs of muscle at 40 years old, and the ability to crank 70 hrs a year when you could only hit 40 prior.
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I think it's a really over the top punishment. I've read the Freeh Report and, frankly, except for the child rape stuff (yeah...kind of a big deal,) that report would be exactly the same at every other major football school in the nation. That's just how it is when you develop a mechanism like American College Football.
And who exactly are you punishing? The athletes who had nothing to do with Jerry Sandusky? Jerry Sandusky who is going to die in prison? Joe Paterno who is dead? Joe Paterno's family? The institution of PSU itself? I mean, who cares what a meaningless entity like the NCAA does with its justice? I'm sure child molester everywhere will now think twice before raping kids because they don't want their college program to lose 70(!) scholarships and $60 million dollars. Won't someone think of the vacated wins?!
Facetious, sorry. But punishments are meant to be deterrents, as well as punitive. This punishment doesn't actually do anything. Going to jail for covering up a heinous crime - that's a deterrent. I don't think Graham Spanier, Tim Curley or Gary Schultz are going to give 1 damn about the fact that Penn State can't attend Bowls when they're in jail.
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Here's a insight for all you non-American or non-football fans. My sister just told me the news and within a minute I said, "You know I feel bad for saying this but.. BOBBY BOWDENS HAS THE MOST CAREER WINS NOW!" She told me that that was the first thing she thought of.
That's the mentality that leads to this shit. It's more than just a game to us. It's hometown patriotism. It's dangerous. We lose sight of what is important and the more important we are, the more it can hurt others. That's how this shit happened. Chasing after wins.
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There are only two times in my life when I have supported vacating accomplishments.
The first is Barry Bonds. I'm a Braves fan. Anyone who knows baseball gets why.
The second is Joe Paterno. I was a long time Paterno supporter. I thought he should be allowed to die coaching. The man was a legend and an icon, someone who said "fuck you cancer (and broken pelvis or w/e), I'm going to keep doing what I love." But the moment the Sandusky thing came out, I knew he needed to step down. And once his involvement came out, every win he had was tainted.
The weird thing is, I still don't consider Bowden to be the wins leader either, because he didn't earn the #1 spot. In my mind, until someone tops Paterno's original record, there is no win leader, only a #2 (not that this will ever happen). I understand that this is illogical, but to me its like Bowden has the interim title until someone at least tops him.
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On July 24 2012 03:23 TheTreeKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 03:13 andrewlt wrote:On July 24 2012 01:13 Anytus wrote:
I don't really understand this. JoePa is gone. Spanier is gone. Sandusky is in jail and 2 other administrators are still facing charges. Is there anyone left at Penn State who knew what was going on and failed to act? Who exactly are we punishing here? Certainly the Board of Trustees failed in its oversight, but how do these football punishments apply to them?
I think this is all just a big witch hunt. Terrible things happened and so now we feel the need to blame the institution where it happened, despite the fact that all of the individuals who perpetrated the crime or covered it up (to our knowledge) were fired or are in prison. I just don't understand how this has anything to do with the NCAA or football.
Apparently, the 'culture' at Penn State is to blame for this incident. Can anyone point to exactly how this culture contributed? Joe Paterno was above reproach because no one had any reason to believe otherwise; he had always conducted himself with honesty and integrity. What exactly are we advocating here, that a university should be perpetually suspicious of the positive qualities of its football staff?
The fact is that this had nothing to do with football and should've been handled in a court of law and not by the NCAA or the Big 10. You don't see how the culture contributed? You didn't read the parts in the Freeh report about how the janitors were afraid to report Sandusky because they were scared of Paterno? You didn't read about the school administrator who was fired because she clashed with Paterno about him wanting to keep disciplinary measures in-house? You didn't see all those dumbshit cultists, err students, rioting after Paterno was fired? You didn't read the interviews with Penn State students in just about any article written about the scandal? Or those students protecting the statue last week? Penn State's culture is being a cult-like entity that is closed to outside influence. The institution is placed above all. Behavior is handled in house. People inside the institution are blind to the humanity outside their bubble. Purely curious, are you involved in Penn State somehow? Student, staff? But talking about Athletic departments, I work in Administration at a Big10 school, and I will tell you that the Athletics programs in these places are treated like kings from the University administration (in some ways..) . They are given huge amounts of money and leeway, because football is the school's bread and butter. (They make... so much money... ) and one of the most visible symbols of a school (in Penn State, probably THE most) So, they can and do directly impact a school. I think it would be safe to assume that if you affected the Athletics department it would affect the University in it's entirety, as every discussion of changing anything in Athletics is always directly correlated to affecting the rest of the University. At least every decision I've heard.. Imagine all those kids who started looking for colleges and now don't want to go to Penn State "just because". I can see especially how all these sanctions against the school can really hurt it's marketability. EDIT: I accidentally a apostrophe and clarified some things.
Nope, not affiliated with Penn State at all. I graduated from USC, a big football school, roughly a decade ago. I was from overseas and came for the academics, just like a pretty big minority of people in that university.
Anyway, I became a bit of a football fan during my time there. I've mostly migrated to the NFL, though, as my opinion of college football goes down each and every year. The stupidity and the hypocrisy gets harder and harder to stand.
I get the marketability argument but there are plenty of ways to market a university. I remember reading a list of the schools with the highest enrollment of foreign students years ago and was surprised that Ohio State had one of the highest foreign student populations. They were an annual championship contender back then but I'm sure the international students didn't go there for the football.
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On July 24 2012 04:19 iGrok wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There are only two times in my life when I have supported vacating accomplishments.
The first is Barry Bonds. I'm a Braves fan. Anyone who knows baseball gets why.
The second is Joe Paterno. I was a long time Paterno supporter. I thought he should be allowed to die coaching. The man was a legend and an icon, someone who said "fuck you cancer (and broken pelvis or w/e), I'm going to keep doing what I love." But the moment the Sandusky thing came out, I knew he needed to step down. And once his involvement came out, every win he had was tainted.
The weird thing is, I still don't consider Bowden to be the wins leader either, because he didn't earn the #1 spot. In my mind, until someone tops Paterno's original record, there is no win leader, only a #2 (not that this will ever happen). I understand that this is illogical, but to me its like Bowden has the interim title until someone at least tops him.
It's not illogical at all. I just said the same exact thing to my sister and believe me, I'm not above stabbing someone in a bar fight over whether FSU is the greatest team to ever exist. They can change the record but it'll only be on paper. Paterno won, call it what you will. I get the symbolic gesture of taking away the wins but it's not the substance of the penalties and when I think about the game, not this that has happened, I'll remember that Bobby came in second (as much as it pains me to admit).
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The punishments make no sense what so ever. So the NCAA is vacating all wins from 1988 which means they are acknowledging the fact that Penn St. was violating "institutional control" for 14 years but they are only fining them 60 million which is equivalent to one year gross revenue for their football program.So If you are going to vacate 14 years of victories then you must fine them for the entire 14 year period no? So the fair punishment would be a fine of well over 500 million. 60 million is a drop in the bucket for a school with an endowment of over 1.5 billion.
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On July 24 2012 04:08 slyboogie wrote:
I'm sure child molester everywhere will now think twice before raping kids because they don't want their college program to lose 70(!) scholarships and $60 million dollars. Won't someone think of the vacated wins?!
It's to serve as a detterent to those in power who might look the other way that your program and school will get skull fucked into oblivion if you cover up criminal shit to protect your image, recruiting ability and interests.
It's clear that this cover up was done, among other reasons, to protect the image of PSU football. Can someone provide a compelling reason why their program shouldn't get getting pounded in the ground right now? How is this any different than USC getting smashed over the head for the Bush recruiting violations? People who weren't even there when he played ate that shit.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
One supercharged, definitely evil, too big to fail college football program down. Many many many more to go.
Will it happen? Nope, today's punishment has filled the NCAA's morality quota for at least ten years.
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On July 24 2012 04:41 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
... 60 million which is equivalent to one year gross revenue for their football program.So If you are going to vacate 14 years of victories then you must fine them for the entire 14 year period no? So the fair punishment would be a fine of well over 500 million. 60 million is a drop in the bucket for a school with an endowment of over 1.5 billion.
$60 million is an insane amount of money for a University, especially considering funding is already at a premium.
If PSU is like the one I work for, every dollar is distributed and fought over like fucking vultures on a dead horse.Some of that $60 million revenue may have gone towards funding programs which aid students in athletics or may even cross over and fund other programs to help students.
And if it is all the gross revenue, well so what, revenue doesn't mean anything, profit does. Revenue being poured back into the program = don't take that away, I guess, you're punishing the wrong people (students, athletes, student athletes, etc.) . Revenue turning profit given to the administration =/= cool.
And quoting the endowment isn't very helpful either, perhaps how much of that endowment is going towards the football program, sure!
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On July 24 2012 04:47 tree.hugger wrote:
One supercharged, definitely evil, too big to fail college football program down. Many many many more to go.
Will it happen? Nope, today's punishment has filled the NCAA's morality quota for at least ten years.
Bold. And funny. But bold.
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On July 24 2012 04:47 tree.hugger wrote:
One supercharged, definitely evil, too big to fail college football program down. Many many many more to go.
Will it happen? Nope, today's punishment has filled the NCAA's morality quota for at least ten years.
Actually, if you're read what Mark Emmert (NCAA Pres) has been saying, the NCAA might actually get cleaner under his rule, similar to Goodell in the NFL. Emmert seems set to use the power he's gotten as a result of the Penn State issue to grant himself more power relative to the board. Could be a good thing if it works out, though it'll sure be painful.
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EPT
