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On July 24 2012 09:27 Sadist wrote:
All the heat Paterno is taking is because he claimed he didnt know about the 98 incident but Freeh's report is concluding he did based on emails. He would likely be facing perjury charges if he were alive today.
Probably wouldn't. It has to be pretty flagrant to have a reasonable chance at perjury and it's not highly prosecuted to begin with.
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On July 24 2012 10:11 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 09:38 czylu wrote:On July 24 2012 09:28 shabinka wrote:On July 24 2012 06:00 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 04:44 Hawk wrote:On July 24 2012 04:08 slyboogie wrote:
I'm sure child molester everywhere will now think twice before raping kids because they don't want their college program to lose 70(!) scholarships and $60 million dollars. Won't someone think of the vacated wins?!
It's to serve as a detterent to those in power who might look the other way that your program and school will get skull fucked into oblivion if you cover up criminal shit to protect your image, recruiting ability and interests. It's clear that this cover up was done, among other reasons, to protect the image of PSU football. Can someone provide a compelling reason why their program shouldn't get getting pounded in the ground right now? How is this any different than USC getting smashed over the head for the Bush recruiting violations? People who weren't even there when he played ate that shit. They didn't violate NCAA by-laws, they systemically covered up rapes! And for that, they are going to go to prison. I, for some reason, find this to be different from hiding a slush fund or cheating Pell Grants to gain an "unfair" advantage at a game. The NCAA shouldn't even be involved in this, this is just sanctimonious showboating to make everyone feel better. Which, as I type that, doesn't actually seem wrong... Just quoting this for truth and how I also feel about this. Hope more people see this. Do you really think that the NCAA is just gonna sit on its ass while Penn State's actions have completely tarnished the reputation of college football? The NCAA is ultimately a business, and when something is bad for business, something needs to go. Can you imagine the flak they will get if they do nothing and Penn State is hoisting a Rose Bowl next year? Okay, so the NCAA did this to save face? As long as we are all on the same page - the NCAA is not a moral body meant to dispense justice - it's just a hypocritical greedy organization that doesn't care about raped children: just public outrage and lost revenue. As long as we're clear.
That being said, I feel as though the punishment is pretty much in line with the general and appropriate moral consensus; the cover up was systemic and far-reaching and Sandusky was a cornerstone of the team structure for many, many years. That the foundations of the program take a hit makes sense to me at least.
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On July 24 2012 10:17 zev318 wrote:
its sad the only people who are really punished are the student athletes.
read more carefully.
the NCAA retained the right to open multiple investigations against administrators and bureaucrats involved.
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On July 24 2012 10:17 zev318 wrote:
its sad the only people who are really punished are the student athletes.
With the sham that is amateurism in college football (read: basically slavery), they aren't being hurt. The ones on scholarship at PSU get to stay there for free and may choose to not play, or they can transfer to another school and play without penalty. The team will be bad for a few years but if it's your dream to play there, there will still be scholarships.
Also - as if college football is fucking important anyway. Not to rag on you personally, but that kind of attitude is what put PSU in this position in the first place. "Oh well if this gets out the team will be hurt!" You know someone said that or used it as a justification for the cover up.
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On July 24 2012 10:20 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 10:11 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 09:38 czylu wrote:On July 24 2012 09:28 shabinka wrote:On July 24 2012 06:00 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 04:44 Hawk wrote:On July 24 2012 04:08 slyboogie wrote:
I'm sure child molester everywhere will now think twice before raping kids because they don't want their college program to lose 70(!) scholarships and $60 million dollars. Won't someone think of the vacated wins?!
It's to serve as a detterent to those in power who might look the other way that your program and school will get skull fucked into oblivion if you cover up criminal shit to protect your image, recruiting ability and interests. It's clear that this cover up was done, among other reasons, to protect the image of PSU football. Can someone provide a compelling reason why their program shouldn't get getting pounded in the ground right now? How is this any different than USC getting smashed over the head for the Bush recruiting violations? People who weren't even there when he played ate that shit. They didn't violate NCAA by-laws, they systemically covered up rapes! And for that, they are going to go to prison. I, for some reason, find this to be different from hiding a slush fund or cheating Pell Grants to gain an "unfair" advantage at a game. The NCAA shouldn't even be involved in this, this is just sanctimonious showboating to make everyone feel better. Which, as I type that, doesn't actually seem wrong... Just quoting this for truth and how I also feel about this. Hope more people see this. Do you really think that the NCAA is just gonna sit on its ass while Penn State's actions have completely tarnished the reputation of college football? The NCAA is ultimately a business, and when something is bad for business, something needs to go. Can you imagine the flak they will get if they do nothing and Penn State is hoisting a Rose Bowl next year? Okay, so the NCAA did this to save face? As long as we are all on the same page - the NCAA is not a moral body meant to dispense justice - it's just a hypocritical greedy organization that doesn't care about raped children: just public outrage and lost revenue. As long as we're clear. It's not a moral body meant to dispense justice but it's not a hypocritical greedy organization either. It's just a business organization, and it needs to do what is profitable(this is neither hypocritical nor greedy).
This would be absolutely fine, if the NCAA admitted to what it was. I don't disagree that they decided to butcher Penn State because it was a business decision. That's not even an argument. The argument is that the NCAA will wrap itself up in white robes of righteousness and condemn a university and football program for evil vile sins committed by a handful of terrible men. Mark Emmert will speak solemnly and offer his meaningless condolences. But no one will care because no one cares when DOWchemical says "Sorry, your kid was raped." or ExxonMobile says "Sorry. We'll make sure that gas station gets only one pump - it really is the moral thing to do."
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A rival of mine had recently verbally committed to PSU. In light of these sanctions he's already in the "early stages of reconsidering his commit"
unlucky PSU, he's a damn good player.
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On July 24 2012 10:42 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 10:20 czylu wrote:On July 24 2012 10:11 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 09:38 czylu wrote:On July 24 2012 09:28 shabinka wrote:On July 24 2012 06:00 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 04:44 Hawk wrote:On July 24 2012 04:08 slyboogie wrote:
I'm sure child molester everywhere will now think twice before raping kids because they don't want their college program to lose 70(!) scholarships and $60 million dollars. Won't someone think of the vacated wins?!
It's to serve as a detterent to those in power who might look the other way that your program and school will get skull fucked into oblivion if you cover up criminal shit to protect your image, recruiting ability and interests. It's clear that this cover up was done, among other reasons, to protect the image of PSU football. Can someone provide a compelling reason why their program shouldn't get getting pounded in the ground right now? How is this any different than USC getting smashed over the head for the Bush recruiting violations? People who weren't even there when he played ate that shit. They didn't violate NCAA by-laws, they systemically covered up rapes! And for that, they are going to go to prison. I, for some reason, find this to be different from hiding a slush fund or cheating Pell Grants to gain an "unfair" advantage at a game. The NCAA shouldn't even be involved in this, this is just sanctimonious showboating to make everyone feel better. Which, as I type that, doesn't actually seem wrong... Just quoting this for truth and how I also feel about this. Hope more people see this. Do you really think that the NCAA is just gonna sit on its ass while Penn State's actions have completely tarnished the reputation of college football? The NCAA is ultimately a business, and when something is bad for business, something needs to go. Can you imagine the flak they will get if they do nothing and Penn State is hoisting a Rose Bowl next year? Okay, so the NCAA did this to save face? As long as we are all on the same page - the NCAA is not a moral body meant to dispense justice - it's just a hypocritical greedy organization that doesn't care about raped children: just public outrage and lost revenue. As long as we're clear. It's not a moral body meant to dispense justice but it's not a hypocritical greedy organization either. It's just a business organization, and it needs to do what is profitable(this is neither hypocritical nor greedy). This would be absolutely fine, if the NCAA admitted to what it was. I don't disagree that they decided to butcher Penn State because it was a business decision. That's not even an argument. The argument is that the NCAA will wrap itself up in white robes of righteousness and condemn a university and football program for evil vile sins committed by a handful of terrible men. Mark Emmert will speak solemnly and offer his meaningless condolences. But no one will care because no one cares when DOWchemical says "Sorry, your kid was raped." or ExxonMobile says "Sorry. We'll make sure that gas station gets only one pump - it really is the moral thing to do."
Your analogy doesn't make sense.
Better:
ExxonMobil is part of a group of oil companies. ExxonMobil does something awful, lets say they leak bad chemicals into drinking water. ExxonMobil gets prosecuted by the government. In addition to that, the group that exxonmobil is a part of says "hey, you are giving all of us in this group a bad name. Because of you, something really bad happened, and not only will that affect you, it's going to affect us, and all the people you hurt. We're going to punish you above and beyond the bad publicity and government, because you deserve it."
Makes sense to me. /shrug
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On July 24 2012 04:19 iGrok wrote:
There are only two times in my life when I have supported vacating accomplishments.
The first is Barry Bonds. I'm a Braves fan. Anyone who knows baseball gets why.
The second is Joe Paterno. I was a long time Paterno supporter. I thought he should be allowed to die coaching. The man was a legend and an icon, someone who said "fuck you cancer (and broken pelvis or w/e), I'm going to keep doing what I love." But the moment the Sandusky thing came out, I knew he needed to step down. And once his involvement came out, every win he had was tainted.
The weird thing is, I still don't consider Bowden to be the wins leader either, because he didn't earn the #1 spot. In my mind, until someone tops Paterno's original record, there is no win leader, only a #2 (not that this will ever happen). I understand that this is illogical, but to me its like Bowden has the interim title until someone at least tops him.
This is like saying that Savior's bonjwa status was tainted by throwing games later in his career. It's a mind-numbingly stupid comment. His flawed actions off the field weren't related to on-the-field performance whatsoever; he wasn't bribing his opponents to lose, he wasn't gaining unfair information or advantages over his opponents, he wasn't getting his players to use steroids. He did something unrelated to the game, and taking away his wins is just stupid.
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Amateurism is an outdated concept and the NCAA is a ridiculous organization that does nothing.
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On July 24 2012 10:49 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Amateurism is an outdated concept and the NCAA is a ridiculous organization that does nothing.
NCAA's version is amateurism is ridiculous. I can agree with that.
On July 24 2012 10:49 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 04:19 iGrok wrote:
There are only two times in my life when I have supported vacating accomplishments.
The first is Barry Bonds. I'm a Braves fan. Anyone who knows baseball gets why.
The second is Joe Paterno. I was a long time Paterno supporter. I thought he should be allowed to die coaching. The man was a legend and an icon, someone who said "fuck you cancer (and broken pelvis or w/e), I'm going to keep doing what I love." But the moment the Sandusky thing came out, I knew he needed to step down. And once his involvement came out, every win he had was tainted.
The weird thing is, I still don't consider Bowden to be the wins leader either, because he didn't earn the #1 spot. In my mind, until someone tops Paterno's original record, there is no win leader, only a #2 (not that this will ever happen). I understand that this is illogical, but to me its like Bowden has the interim title until someone at least tops him. This is like saying that Savior's bonjwa status was tainted by throwing games later in his career. It's a mind-numbingly stupid comment. His flawed actions off the field weren't related to on-the-field performance whatsoever; he wasn't bribing his opponents to lose, he wasn't gaining unfair information or advantages over his opponents, he wasn't getting his players to use steroids. He did something unrelated to the game, and taking away his wins is just stupid.
If this scandal hits in 1998 like it should have, how many of those players are still apart of PSU? How many wins does he actually achieve between 1998 and 2011 when its been revealed that his good friend and defensive coordinator is a pedophile who rapes children in the schools athletic facility? I highly doubt he holds that record today if this scandal comes out when it should have. So I have no issue with them vacating the wins (I also believe its the tamest part of the punishment).
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On July 24 2012 10:49 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 04:19 iGrok wrote:
There are only two times in my life when I have supported vacating accomplishments.
The first is Barry Bonds. I'm a Braves fan. Anyone who knows baseball gets why.
The second is Joe Paterno. I was a long time Paterno supporter. I thought he should be allowed to die coaching. The man was a legend and an icon, someone who said "fuck you cancer (and broken pelvis or w/e), I'm going to keep doing what I love." But the moment the Sandusky thing came out, I knew he needed to step down. And once his involvement came out, every win he had was tainted.
The weird thing is, I still don't consider Bowden to be the wins leader either, because he didn't earn the #1 spot. In my mind, until someone tops Paterno's original record, there is no win leader, only a #2 (not that this will ever happen). I understand that this is illogical, but to me its like Bowden has the interim title until someone at least tops him. This is like saying that Savior's bonjwa status was tainted by throwing games later in his career. It's a mind-numbingly stupid comment. His flawed actions off the field weren't related to on-the-field performance whatsoever; he wasn't bribing his opponents to lose, he wasn't gaining unfair information or advantages over his opponents, he wasn't getting his players to use steroids. He did something unrelated to the game, and taking away his wins is just stupid.
The case can be made that him lying and covering things up allowed him to get players that might not have originally come aboard. When Paterno or Sandusky showed up to recruit a kid, tell the kid and his parents "We're going to help shape your kid into an upstanding man. Take him under our wing and show him how to win on the field as well as how to be a honorable man off the field." they were CLEARLY blowing smoke up asses. Think that same speech to a kid of parent would go so hot in recent light? "By the way I'm fucking kids on the side. I'm clearly of strong moral character! Think it's cool if I help shape your child? I can totally be trusted!"
NCAA can be a sham, amateur athletics is a joke. But that's another topic for another day. I'm quite alright with the NCAA crucifying the team. The players can go elsewhere if they want, they're not getting screwed.
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On July 24 2012 10:42 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 10:20 czylu wrote:On July 24 2012 10:11 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 09:38 czylu wrote:On July 24 2012 09:28 shabinka wrote:On July 24 2012 06:00 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 04:44 Hawk wrote:On July 24 2012 04:08 slyboogie wrote:
I'm sure child molester everywhere will now think twice before raping kids because they don't want their college program to lose 70(!) scholarships and $60 million dollars. Won't someone think of the vacated wins?!
It's to serve as a detterent to those in power who might look the other way that your program and school will get skull fucked into oblivion if you cover up criminal shit to protect your image, recruiting ability and interests. It's clear that this cover up was done, among other reasons, to protect the image of PSU football. Can someone provide a compelling reason why their program shouldn't get getting pounded in the ground right now? How is this any different than USC getting smashed over the head for the Bush recruiting violations? People who weren't even there when he played ate that shit. They didn't violate NCAA by-laws, they systemically covered up rapes! And for that, they are going to go to prison. I, for some reason, find this to be different from hiding a slush fund or cheating Pell Grants to gain an "unfair" advantage at a game. The NCAA shouldn't even be involved in this, this is just sanctimonious showboating to make everyone feel better. Which, as I type that, doesn't actually seem wrong... Just quoting this for truth and how I also feel about this. Hope more people see this. Do you really think that the NCAA is just gonna sit on its ass while Penn State's actions have completely tarnished the reputation of college football? The NCAA is ultimately a business, and when something is bad for business, something needs to go. Can you imagine the flak they will get if they do nothing and Penn State is hoisting a Rose Bowl next year? Okay, so the NCAA did this to save face? As long as we are all on the same page - the NCAA is not a moral body meant to dispense justice - it's just a hypocritical greedy organization that doesn't care about raped children: just public outrage and lost revenue. As long as we're clear. It's not a moral body meant to dispense justice but it's not a hypocritical greedy organization either. It's just a business organization, and it needs to do what is profitable(this is neither hypocritical nor greedy). This would be absolutely fine, if the NCAA admitted to what it was. I don't disagree that they decided to butcher Penn State because it was a business decision. That's not even an argument. The argument is that the NCAA will wrap itself up in white robes of righteousness and condemn a university and football program for evil vile sins committed by a handful of terrible men. Mark Emmert will speak solemnly and offer his meaningless condolences. But no one will care because no one cares when DOWchemical says "Sorry, your kid was raped." or ExxonMobile says "Sorry. We'll make sure that gas station gets only one pump - it really is the moral thing to do."
you've got a very exaggerated view of the world.
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Dunno why the NCAA would even get involved in this really. Sets a terrible precedent and takes on a whole new role that I don't think they're prepared for. Even if they do say this is "unique circumstances" who's to say they won't say that in the future?
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On July 24 2012 11:16 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 10:42 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 10:20 czylu wrote:On July 24 2012 10:11 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 09:38 czylu wrote:On July 24 2012 09:28 shabinka wrote:On July 24 2012 06:00 slyboogie wrote:On July 24 2012 04:44 Hawk wrote:On July 24 2012 04:08 slyboogie wrote:
I'm sure child molester everywhere will now think twice before raping kids because they don't want their college program to lose 70(!) scholarships and $60 million dollars. Won't someone think of the vacated wins?!
It's to serve as a detterent to those in power who might look the other way that your program and school will get skull fucked into oblivion if you cover up criminal shit to protect your image, recruiting ability and interests. It's clear that this cover up was done, among other reasons, to protect the image of PSU football. Can someone provide a compelling reason why their program shouldn't get getting pounded in the ground right now? How is this any different than USC getting smashed over the head for the Bush recruiting violations? People who weren't even there when he played ate that shit. They didn't violate NCAA by-laws, they systemically covered up rapes! And for that, they are going to go to prison. I, for some reason, find this to be different from hiding a slush fund or cheating Pell Grants to gain an "unfair" advantage at a game. The NCAA shouldn't even be involved in this, this is just sanctimonious showboating to make everyone feel better. Which, as I type that, doesn't actually seem wrong... Just quoting this for truth and how I also feel about this. Hope more people see this. Do you really think that the NCAA is just gonna sit on its ass while Penn State's actions have completely tarnished the reputation of college football? The NCAA is ultimately a business, and when something is bad for business, something needs to go. Can you imagine the flak they will get if they do nothing and Penn State is hoisting a Rose Bowl next year? Okay, so the NCAA did this to save face? As long as we are all on the same page - the NCAA is not a moral body meant to dispense justice - it's just a hypocritical greedy organization that doesn't care about raped children: just public outrage and lost revenue. As long as we're clear. It's not a moral body meant to dispense justice but it's not a hypocritical greedy organization either. It's just a business organization, and it needs to do what is profitable(this is neither hypocritical nor greedy). This would be absolutely fine, if the NCAA admitted to what it was. I don't disagree that they decided to butcher Penn State because it was a business decision. That's not even an argument. The argument is that the NCAA will wrap itself up in white robes of righteousness and condemn a university and football program for evil vile sins committed by a handful of terrible men. Mark Emmert will speak solemnly and offer his meaningless condolences. But no one will care because no one cares when DOWchemical says "Sorry, your kid was raped." or ExxonMobile says "Sorry. We'll make sure that gas station gets only one pump - it really is the moral thing to do." you've got a very exaggerated view of the world.
That's probably true. To be fair, I would have found fault with anything the NCAA did because I think they're awful.
Look, I agree with you in the reality of it all. The NCAA is a business. Does that mean that they hate children and aren't sad that these terrible things happened? No, it's still made up of humans - well intentioned, moral (I believe) humans. But let's be real. These men weren't Penn State. Even Joe Paterno wasn't Penn State. Does Penn State deserve sanctions? Sure, I guess - but do sanctions really mean anything in light of what we're even talking about? Does the severity of the sanctions make the healing any faster? Does it make what happened any more correctable?
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On July 24 2012 11:20 RJGooner wrote:
Dunno why the NCAA would even get involved in this really. Sets a terrible precedent and takes on a whole new role that I don't think they're prepared for. Even if they do say this is "unique circumstances" who's to say they won't say that in the future?
lack of institutional control is why im assuming they got involved and gave penalties.
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On July 24 2012 10:33 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 10:17 zev318 wrote:
its sad the only people who are really punished are the student athletes. With the sham that is amateurism in college football (read: basically slavery), they aren't being hurt. The ones on scholarship at PSU get to stay there for free and may choose to not play, or they can transfer to another school and play without penalty. The team will be bad for a few years but if it's your dream to play there, there will still be scholarships. Also - as if college football is fucking important anyway. Not to rag on you personally, but that kind of attitude is what put PSU in this position in the first place. "Oh well if this gets out the team will be hurt!" You know someone said that or used it as a justification for the cover up.
dont really care about college football, everything they have done today only punishes the students athletes. i dont see one thing being done about the people who covered it up (as of yet), that's what my comment is really about.
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On July 24 2012 11:47 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 10:33 Bigtony wrote:On July 24 2012 10:17 zev318 wrote:
its sad the only people who are really punished are the student athletes. With the sham that is amateurism in college football (read: basically slavery), they aren't being hurt. The ones on scholarship at PSU get to stay there for free and may choose to not play, or they can transfer to another school and play without penalty. The team will be bad for a few years but if it's your dream to play there, there will still be scholarships. Also - as if college football is fucking important anyway. Not to rag on you personally, but that kind of attitude is what put PSU in this position in the first place. "Oh well if this gets out the team will be hurt!" You know someone said that or used it as a justification for the cover up. dont really care about college football, everything they have done today only punishes the students athletes. i dont see one thing being done about the people who covered it up (as of yet), that's what my comment is really about.
who are the ones that get fucked any time there's a punishment levied in ncaa??
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tired of PSU cult followers getting butt hurt over reasonable sanctions.
-60 million $/1.83 billion? REALLY not that bad.
-Student athletes will be able to transfer and whatnot with no eligibility sanctions (it's unavoidable that the players will suffer, seeing as this was a FOOTBALL program and therefore an entire university problem)
-Everything else is punishing the football program, yet all these PSU people still love Paterno and think they've been wronged.
How about next time, the most important people in your university have the balls to do the right thing and not be accessories to child rape?
Nah, that sounds too hard.
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On July 24 2012 11:47 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 10:33 Bigtony wrote:On July 24 2012 10:17 zev318 wrote:
its sad the only people who are really punished are the student athletes. With the sham that is amateurism in college football (read: basically slavery), they aren't being hurt. The ones on scholarship at PSU get to stay there for free and may choose to not play, or they can transfer to another school and play without penalty. The team will be bad for a few years but if it's your dream to play there, there will still be scholarships. Also - as if college football is fucking important anyway. Not to rag on you personally, but that kind of attitude is what put PSU in this position in the first place. "Oh well if this gets out the team will be hurt!" You know someone said that or used it as a justification for the cover up. dont really care about college football, everything they have done today only punishes the students athletes. i dont see one thing being done about the people who covered it up (as of yet), that's what my comment is really about.
Well the people who actually did the covering up have been fired and some are under criminal investigation. Unfortunately there are still consequences for the school. I don't really feel like these penalties hurt any student who is truly passionate about football - they can transfer easily, stay at the school and play with their heart, or stay at the school and not play.
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I think it sends a very good message. Yes, the penalty is harsh. But, look at it another way. Every school in the nation will now be more aware of what is happening on their campuses. And if any misconduct is found, it will be reported immediately. PSU could potentially be ruined, and no other school will want to risk that. I think it is very appropriate as a deterrent.
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EPT
