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On November 07 2011 12:01 D u o wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 11:46 Millitron wrote: or how easy it was for Hitler to convince the majority of Germany to follow the Nazi ideology, or how many Japanese civilians killed themselves in WW2 because they had been told the American soldiers would torture them to death. But if him being in jail pushes others to get help or pushes others 100% away from supporting the child sex industry. I'm all for it.
i outright disagree with this philosophy. make an example of one person? sacrifice him for the flock? this is a horrible terrible thing. there are other ways to better the world and we should be uniting as a people and pursing those rather than accepting things like this. they are unacceptable.
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On November 07 2011 12:01 D u o wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 11:46 Millitron wrote: or how easy it was for Hitler to convince the majority of Germany to follow the Nazi ideology, or how many Japanese civilians killed themselves in WW2 because they had been told the American soldiers would torture them to death. http://www.geniebusters.org/what-is-national-socialism.htm <- NAZI as in National Socialism isn't bad. 99.9% of the German populace didn't know about the concentration camps and ect. Just like America didn't know about the 2.4-7.5 million Ukrains Stalin starved to death. Japan has always been about honor and family, and has only just begun to change. Westernization had started at around 1850. The war only 100 years later. Try changing a whole society completely away from their ideologies and beliefs that they've been practicing for thousands of years. The 20'th century was very sheepish. But the 21st century has come quite the ways in the past 5 or 6 years. Sure the banks still rule america and probably will until the world collapses, and sure people get these sorts of sentences, but this is just one casualty. I feel bad for this guy, but maybe the justice system is just setting an example. If you're a pedophile or anyone who supports it, these are the consequences. I and most of the modern world have no problem with setting an example of just one person. Do I feel bad for this one person, yes. But if him being in jail pushes others to get help or pushes others 100% away from supporting the child sex industry. I'm all for it.
The vast majority of the German populace knew nasty things were happening to the Jews and other persecuted groups. Most probably didn't know the full extent, but just about everyone knew they were being shipped off "Somewhere". Further, most of the major concentration camps were within a few miles of large cities.
As for this being a fine ruling because its making an example of him, as Martin Luther King said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
That link was pretty cool though, definitely a good read, aside from the Zionist conspiracy stuff.
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On November 07 2011 12:04 NtroP wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 12:01 D u o wrote:On November 07 2011 11:46 Millitron wrote: or how easy it was for Hitler to convince the majority of Germany to follow the Nazi ideology, or how many Japanese civilians killed themselves in WW2 because they had been told the American soldiers would torture them to death. http://www.geniebusters.org/what-is-national-socialism.htm <- NAZI as in National Socialism isn't bad. 99.9% of the German populace didn't know about the concentration camps and ect. Just like America didn't know about the 2.4-7.5 million Ukrains Stalin starved to death. Japan has always been about honor and family, and has only just begun to change. Westernization had started at around 1850. The war only 100 years later. Try changing a whole society completely away from their ideologies and beliefs that they've been practicing for thousands of years. The 20'th century was very sheepish. But the 21st century has come quite the ways in the past 5 or 6 years. Sure the banks still rule america and probably will until the world collapses, and sure people get these sorts of sentences, but this is just one casualty. I feel bad for this guy, but maybe the justice system is just setting an example. If you're a pedophile or anyone who supports it, these are the consequences. I and most of the modern world have no problem with setting an example of just one person. Do I feel bad for this one person, yes. But if him being in jail pushes others to get help or pushes others 100% away from supporting the child sex industry. I'm all for it. For the greater good! Freedom for the rich!
Basically. 8) Because I'm rich I'm bias'd. 8)
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Damn, hit quote by mistake, meant edit
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On November 07 2011 11:25 DarkwindHK wrote:
If this is justice, then all those who have viewed the youtube video about little Yue Yue getting hit by 2 trucks in Fushan last month should get life imprisonment. That video is basically a video of murdering a 2 year old child; by viewing it you are supporting more of those kind of video being made and cause death of children. The large view count shows how popular this kind of video is and you help create a market for it.
What a great logic.
well, i think the law takes "intent" into account. the intent of viewing that video was not for sexual pleasure, as it can easily be linked to the discussions etc surrouding it if you got reported and arrested for it. but if you couldnt convince a jury of that then yeah i guess you could get convicted and spend a life in jail, coz after all , 1) you're a "proven" risk to society for finding pleasure in it 2) you're potentially supporting it by "showing" people that there is a demand
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OP should most definitely include a poll to put TL members' views in perspective..!
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On November 07 2011 12:08 Millitron wrote:
The vast majority of the German populace knew nasty things were happening to the Jews and other persecuted groups. Most probably didn't know the full extent, but just about everyone knew they were being shipped off "Somewhere". Further, most of the major concentration camps were within a few miles of large cities.
As for this being a fine ruling because its making an example of him, as Martin Luther King said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
That link was pretty cool though, definitely a good read, aside from the Zionist conspiracy stuff.
I only meant the first part. The theory of National Socialism.  Not conspiracy stuffs, its just like communism, in theory it works well. ^__^;
Also, I've seen videos of propaganda of why you would go to a camp with other Jewish people. There were a lot that would go willingly based off these videos. Kids playing together and laughing, full meals at big family tables, and promise of jobs. [At a time of the great depression this was a blessing.] Of course propaganda is propaganda, but I'm pretty sure none of the German people knew that the Jewish populace was to be gassed and incinerated. It's not like you could just take a bus or ask to go inside. There is a reason why it was called "Nazi Occupied Germany." 
As far as the Mr. King quote sure it's bad, and yes as I said I feel bad for the one guy, but this is one case. Its not like people are going to go protest that he gets an easier sentence because then it looks like society is supporting that kind of behavior. No one is going to speak out about it because it's widely accepted as wrong. Sure the sentencing is too long for the crime. But if it'll slow or even stop an industry because more people are too scared to do it. [Which isn't the way we want things done but still.] I am all for it.
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to think you actually get less time for raping children.
Well, lesson here to pedophiles is. Don't search the internet for pictures of little boys, go after the real thing.
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It will not stop anything. This event will piss people off and make the legal system look like an even bigger joke in the eyes of the people. People who distribute and produce child porn will not care, and I doubt they'll even take notice. How many drug dealers will sell less drugs if they know they're ruining people's lives. In fact, this would work a lot better in a drug situation, because if you like little children, you probably cannot help it. This is really ridiculous, because what you're doing is actually deterring them from venting out their sexual feelings through simple pictures and videos, instead of going out and satisfying your urges.
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I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but lawyers are slowing building up the case of relating pedophilia to homosexuality. Currently, there are several cases where lawyers are arguing that pedophiles should be given the same rights as homosexuals based on:
the argument that pedophilia is not a mental disorder (removed from most official lists of mental disorders), some people are pedophilia by nature (<---debatable) - homosexuals are not a mental disorder in the eyes of most people, some people are born homosexual (<--- debatable)
which leads to:
since homosexuals are protected under several sex discrimination laws, so pedophiles should be also (which would allow the distribution of child porn since homosexual porn is allowed)
which leads to:
more rights for pedophiles to do whatever they want with "willing" children since pedophilia is close to the same terms as homosexuality
I don't support this line of reasoning, but it is gaining ground. I do believe that people shouldn't bash people because they're pedophiles, but I don't support that much of an expanse of pedophilia rights,
And since Hitler got in here, Goldwin's Law takes effect and this discussion is over.
read this in an article somewhere, not really going to follow up here though. I don't really like TL political threads that turn into mud-slinging.
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do you have any source for that? i dont see any lawyer in his right mind trying to pursue that...?? especially with such an insane lack of scientific evidence (you say its being removed from the mental disorder list? i read somewhere that the list is being reviewed/re-written in the next few years so maybe you mean some people are discussing it....)
i wrote a blog summarising a few things/interesting revelation if anyones interested
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283325
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On November 07 2011 13:39 NationInArms wrote:I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but lawyers are slowing building up the case of relating pedophilia to homosexuality. Currently, there are several cases where lawyers are arguing that pedophiles should be given the same rights as homosexuals based on: the argument that pedophilia is not a mental disorder (removed from most official lists of mental disorders), some people are pedophilia by nature (<---debatable) - homosexuals are not a mental disorder in the eyes of most people, some people are born homosexual (<--- debatable) which leads to: since homosexuals are protected under several sex discrimination laws, so pedophiles should be also (which would allow the distribution of child porn since homosexual porn is allowed) which leads to: more rights for pedophiles to do whatever they want with "willing" children since pedophilia is close to the same terms as homosexuality I don't support this line of reasoning, but it is gaining ground. I do believe that people shouldn't bash people because they're pedophiles, but I don't support that much of an expanse of pedophilia rights, And since Hitler got in here, Goldwin's Law takes effect and this discussion is over. read this in an article somewhere, not really going to follow up here though. I don't really like TL political threads that turn into mud-slinging.
What?
Consent is kind of a big thing. I don't see how anyone could even hope to argue a similarity as a grounds for removing bans on child pornography!
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Since I just posted that the blog mentioned above which brought me to this topic, I might as well share my thoughts here as well:
To everyone who thinks "capital punishment" like in the case stated in the OP is the best possible solution. Even better, you should hang him instantly:
Are you trying to justify sexual impulse towards children by making these ridiculous analogies? My vote is on you being a sick bastard that is having a hard time facing the fact that there is something wrong with your brain.
Yes, I do get that this is a very, very thin ice topic. However, please take a deep breath and consider these facts:
-Sexual impulse towards children (or animals, your mother or your grandpa for all that I care) is not "wrong" itself. It's an impulse. If you're a human being you will have impulses which indicate to rip someone elses throat out and shove a knife up his ass (hint, that's what your impulse towards the OP sounds like. Does that make me call you a sick fucker? No.).
-Acting on your impulses is a whole different story.
-The possibility to find close examples to your original impulse within a legal environment is, among people who actually care about the psychology behind it, often considered the best possible "treatment". There is a thin line between desensitizing and satisfying. Desensitizing is what happens a lot of the time when people are being isolated and get some kind of "material" about their original input. Satisfying is what happens when you (dingding) are confronted with your impulse in a socially accepted way.
For a brief time I used to do some workshops on an entirely different matter with a psychologist who is specialized in bringing out testimonies by pedophiles who actually did rape/molest children and assisting convicted ones during their prison time and we had quite some talks about that exact topic. In his opinion the people who actually DO commit those crimes are, emotionally, cornered between their "impulse", social (or rather emotional) isolation and their sense of what's actually right or wrong. Here's the trick: The more they isolate themselves from societies standards, the more likely they're going to act on their impulse.
Once this kind of "spiral" starts, no one cares about punishment anymore. It doesn't matter if they get sentenced for life or killed. There's just the initial impulse left and the thin string that keeps them from committing the crime (the knowledge that it's wrong) keeps getting thinner and thinner. THAT is where the real danger lies.
What I meant by "The possibility to find close examples to your original impulse within a legal environment" considering childporn would actually be (don't laugh, things like that exists e.g. in Japan) stuff like e.g. a brothel with legal girls who look as if they're not legal yet or lolicon. By giving people who have such impulses or conditions the possibility to legally get some kind of substitute you keep them socially integrated and the bond that says "This is my society, I know that my impulses are off the chart but, hey, this is not all of it but it's enough for me" gets stronger and people are less likely to commit actual crimes.
tl;dr: Anyway, if someone is attracted to children and can't do anything about it he or she needs help, not isolation.
To put it more simple, there is a huge difference between:
-Wanting to hit someone so badly because you're pissed (cheesed for the fiftieth time on sc2 ladder?)
-Playing Q3 or watching a brutal movie to calm down
-Going out and looking for a place where someone else get's beat up
-Going out, taking a random person with you, dragging them into your apartement and beating the crap out of them.
-Film the whole thing and put it on the interweb for money.
Same line goes for "attracted to children" -> "consuming cp" -> "actively moving to molest/'scout'" -> "commiting a childrape" -> "distributing a childrape"
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I agree with the argument that you made, and I am impressed with how well you made it. There is a very serious ethical and moral dilemma going on here. I hope you don't let the masses who couldn't be bothered to actually contemplate this situation get you down.
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honestly the courts are run by judge impulse instead of by moral reason. there's so much evidence in celebrity and racial sentencing that this really shouldn't come as a surprise. i remember reading an article from a guy who witnessed a crime and got brought in for questioning and described how they tried to make him confess to stuff he didn't do in the most devious ways. he described how they tried to twist his words as much as possible and take statements as implied guilt. it really went to show how fucked up our justice system is. the criteria for becoming a judge are far too lax... if anything it should be harder to become a judge than a doctor.
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On November 07 2011 12:01 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 10:59 Deadeight wrote:On November 07 2011 10:49 Millitron wrote:On November 07 2011 10:40 Deadeight wrote:On November 07 2011 07:51 saocyn wrote:
the more these cases come up the more i honestly think i lost faith in humanity and especially the justice system. none of these people who claim to judge rationally actually do it. none of these judges get checked on and trip on power until they actually are found to abuse it just like that other judge who abused his daughter.
Well, is the job of a judge to decide all by himself, or represent the general view of society? Admittedly there are laws and things in between. It's neither. It's the judge's job to do things by the book, and think carefully about the ruling, not lead a lynch mob. Society's opinion has no standing in an individual case, because if it did, every case would end with someone in the electric chair. The masses are often far too easily swayed to hasty, violent decisions, while true justice must be careful and calculated. Yeah, there are laws in between public opinion and the judge. But the public appoint the government by vote to represent them, and they pass the laws, and the judge follows those. The laws and the judge should reflect what the public want. You can argue the public don't know what's best for them, but the above is the way it should work in a democracy is it not? well, the public are lead by scientists and facts and independent reviews and whatnot. the public doesnt know whats best for them (so to speak) and thats why we have elected (trustworthy) leaders and systems in place to make sense of it all without bias and fearmongering and ignorance and assumptions (im referring to your other post now *) . the whole thing breaks down , though, when our leaders are themselves corrupted or become bias etc. thats when we get laws that bow to public "opinion" - exactly what we elected them NOT to do! * "risks"? come on, if i told you i have a sexual preference for 15 year olds does that make me a "risk" to raping your daughter? NO. why? because you understand , when i put it like this, that sexuality is a huge RANGE of attractions; i dont JUST want to bang 15 year olds, and there would have to be something seriously wrong with me in the first place, regardless of sexual preference, if i were to abuse a child - or abuse an adult! someone who EXCLUSIVELY gets off to little girls , and has no sexual attraction for legal girls, is (in my opinion) exceeeeeedinly rare. infact, until i spent some time trying to reply to your post , i have never even considered this kind of person . they exist, and now that im thinking about it, yeah i guess it must be a fucking horrible life to live, they must get psychologically fucked up in the head over the years, and hence be/become a "risk".
wow this is so interesting, its something i never really thought of before and i dont think ive seen it brought up before. how to proceed with my post now?basically i think its important to understand and recognise the difference between someone who has a "sexual preference" for a certain age (or style, colour, etc) of girl, compared to someone who has an exclusive interest in an underage girl. i think the former is the vast 99.999% of the "pedos" (based on things like my experience talking with people/friends/forums and also based on human studies), but this is definately something that should be researched. BOTH of these groups will download child models/porn/lolicon but only one should be considered a "risk" to society, and ONLY if that person is finding it difficult to cope with their exclusive desire. so interesting, i started off shouting at you but ended up with a new perception/perspective that half parallels your own and allows me to relate to a lot of the crazy anti-pedo sentiments
Ok, I can see what you're saying there, I hadn't thought about them having a range of attraction. I would guess that there is almost certainly a spread of people, with one end liking solely children of a certain sex and the other liking anything that moves.
But my issue is, if someone likes pre-pubescent children as well as adults, then they should find it easier to control. I guess this is similar to what you're thinking, because you relate this to being less likely to actually do something physical with a child. But we're talking about ones who have looked at child porn. In this case, someone who has looked at child porn involving two boys engaging in sexual acts, something he knows will have been exploitative and damaging. This is someone who has already proven themselves unable to resist.
So there are probably people who find pre-pubescent girls attractive but have never indulged their urges at all, instead engaging in legal acts with other people they find attractive. But these people are not known about, impossible to find, haven't done anything wrong. In fact they've demonstrated resolve. But I would separate this group from people who have downloaded child porn. At that point, I'd call them a risk.
I still think they should have a punishment fitting the crime, so something way less than that life without parole prison sentence. But then I guess the radical part of my viewpoint is that I think they shouldn't really be reintroduced into society unless we can somehow develop a sure method of "curing" them. So not prison, but as I suggested in a previous post, an area out in the countryside with restricted internet and TV, computer games, and work to do throughout the day. Whether that work be farming for themselves or packing boxes in a factory. I guess that would be dependent upon their current condition, I wouldn't put the raving rapists in with the awkward guy who downloaded stuff. So basically a commune, and research into "curing" it.
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On November 07 2011 14:37 r.Evo wrote:Since I just posted that the blog mentioned above which brought me to this topic, I might as well share my thoughts here as well: To everyone who thinks "capital punishment" like in the case stated in the OP is the best possible solution. Even better, you should hang him instantly: Show nested quote +Are you trying to justify sexual impulse towards children by making these ridiculous analogies? My vote is on you being a sick bastard that is having a hard time facing the fact that there is something wrong with your brain. Yes, I do get that this is a very, very thin ice topic. However, please take a deep breath and consider these facts: -Sexual impulse towards children (or animals, your mother or your grandpa for all that I care) is not "wrong" itself. It's an impulse. If you're a human being you will have impulses which indicate to rip someone elses throat out and shove a knife up his ass (hint, that's what your impulse towards the OP sounds like. Does that make me call you a sick fucker? No.). - Acting on your impulses is a whole different story. -The possibility to find close examples to your original impulse within a legal environment is, among people who actually care about the psychology behind it, often considered the best possible "treatment". There is a thin line between desensitizing and satisfying. Desensitizing is what happens a lot of the time when people are being isolated and get some kind of "material" about their original input. Satisfying is what happens when you (dingding) are confronted with your impulse in a socially accepted way.For a brief time I used to do some workshops on an entirely different matter with a psychologist who is specialized in bringing out testimonies by pedophiles who actually did rape/molest children and assisting convicted ones during their prison time and we had quite some talks about that exact topic. In his opinion the people who actually DO commit those crimes are, emotionally, cornered between their "impulse", social (or rather emotional) isolation and their sense of what's actually right or wrong. Here's the trick: The more they isolate themselves from societies standards, the more likely they're going to act on their impulse.Once this kind of "spiral" starts, no one cares about punishment anymore. It doesn't matter if they get sentenced for life or killed. There's just the initial impulse left and the thin string that keeps them from committing the crime (the knowledge that it's wrong) keeps getting thinner and thinner. THAT is where the real danger lies. What I meant by "The possibility to find close examples to your original impulse within a legal environment" considering childporn would actually be (don't laugh, things like that exists e.g. in Japan) stuff like e.g. a brothel with legal girls who look as if they're not legal yet or lolicon. By giving people who have such impulses or conditions the possibility to legally get some kind of substitute you keep them socially integrated and the bond that says "This is my society, I know that my impulses are off the chart but, hey, this is not all of it but it's enough for me" gets stronger and people are less likely to commit actual crimes. tl;dr: Show nested quote +Anyway, if someone is attracted to children and can't do anything about it he or she needs help, not isolation. To put it more simple, there is a huge difference between: -Wanting to hit someone so badly because you're pissed (cheesed for the fiftieth time on sc2 ladder?) -Playing Q3 or watching a brutal movie to calm down -Going out and looking for a place where someone else get's beat up -Going out, taking a random person with you, dragging them into your apartement and beating the crap out of them. -Film the whole thing and put it on the interweb for money. Same line goes for "attracted to children" -> "consuming cp" -> "actively moving to molest/'scout'" -> "commiting a childrape" -> "distributing a childrape"
excellent post, I agree with everything you've said
People need to realize that those who consume child pornography most likely (like 99% probable) didn't CHOOSE to get attracted by this. Say you are into (adult -.-) lesbian porn, which is 100% legal.....many are. Thinking back, did you ever "choose" that you were going to like looking at two women going at each other? Or did you start to get attracted by it once kinda randomly and can't even remember when it started?
I have a great sense of pity for those who get aroused by kids but are too afraid to get help. Because of the high chance that they'll end up having a police squadron invading their home. Let alone that they can change their name and move to a different city if someone in the neighborhood found out about it.
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The recidivism rate for pedophiles is 95%. That is also taken into account.
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On November 06 2011 10:23 Josealtron wrote:
Lock him up in jail for the rest of their life? lol. Because apparently looking at disgusting images is as bad as killing somebody...
Child molestation is arguably just as bad as murder. At least murder victims aren't scarred for the rest of their lives by what happened to them.
Viewing pictures/videos of child molestation directly creates demand for it, and makes you utterly responsible for it existing in the first place.
I don't think this is excessive.
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On November 07 2011 11:23 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:37 alpinefpOPP wrote:
I'm pretty sure a life sentence for possessing that kind of shit isn't a good enough punishment, you should be put to death for putting a child through that, the people who watch that are just as guilty as the people who do it. I'm sorry but you are ignorant or delusional if you think that these are equal crimes. The guy is mentally damaged and has an unhealthy sick attraction... but he dealt with it by clicking on computer files, not by abducting and harming a child.
Bullshit. Those computer files weren't created with CGI software. Real children were actually molested.
This defense is like saying it's okay for people who get off on killing people to watch snuff films instead.
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EPT
