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On October 24 2011 01:31 Aberu wrote:As much as I love this news... The skeptic in me can't help but hate Obama for doing this because Election time is coming up. Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 02:09 AcuWill wrote:
Trying to win an election.
This still makes Obama a liar to his base. He ran on the ticket of getting out and outlined how he was going to do it and never once proceeded with what he said. He ran on putting MORE troops in Afghanistan, and he did say he was going to take us out of Iraq... at the end of 2011. Guess what time it is.
It was already agreed and signed in 2008 that all forces would be removed by the end of 2011. It has nothing to do with Obama's next election.
On October 24 2011 02:35 znowstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 01:16 QurtStarcraft wrote:On October 23 2011 23:39 IveReturned wrote:
I dont want to bash US but those people destroyed millions of lives. Do you even know the population of Iraq? Destroyed millions of lives? Please. 31 Million as of 2009. Can we say that US involvement in Iraq destroyed the lives of %6.5 of the overall population...probably. At least in the short term (5-10 years since commencement).
20 years of completely destroying the economy, infrastructure, all social institutions, agriculture, industries, security, and anything that can be regarded as development for a country, and mind you, one that was previously developing quite strongly, the complete impoverishment of a people, etc. It's safe to say the lives of at least 99.5% of Iraqis were destroyed.
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On October 24 2011 04:10 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 01:31 Aberu wrote:As much as I love this news... The skeptic in me can't help but hate Obama for doing this because Election time is coming up. On October 22 2011 02:09 AcuWill wrote:
Trying to win an election.
This still makes Obama a liar to his base. He ran on the ticket of getting out and outlined how he was going to do it and never once proceeded with what he said. He ran on putting MORE troops in Afghanistan, and he did say he was going to take us out of Iraq... at the end of 2011. Guess what time it is. It was already agreed and signed in 2008 that all forces would be removed by the end of 2011. It has nothing to do with Obama's next election. Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 02:35 znowstorm wrote:On October 24 2011 01:16 QurtStarcraft wrote:On October 23 2011 23:39 IveReturned wrote:
I dont want to bash US but those people destroyed millions of lives. Do you even know the population of Iraq? Destroyed millions of lives? Please. 31 Million as of 2009. Can we say that US involvement in Iraq destroyed the lives of %6.5 of the overall population...probably. At least in the short term (5-10 years since commencement). 20 years of completely destroying the economy, infrastructure, all social institutions, agriculture, industries, security, and anything that can be regarded as development for a country, and mind you, one that was previously developing quite strongly, the complete impoverishment of a people, etc. It's safe to say the lives of at least 99.5% of Iraqis were destroyed.
I really fear for the future of Irakis 
I really wish them the best. They have suffered so much for the last 40 or so years. Western countries have fucked it up so bad.
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It was already agreed and signed in 2008 that all forces would be removed by the end of 2011. It has nothing to do with Obama's next election.
Good to hear, perhaps politicians should stop giving verbal promises and start writing things down? Seems to have a positive effect
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It's safe to say the lives of at least 99.5% of Iraqis were destroyed.
That's a bit liberal with the estimation, isn't it though?
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On October 24 2011 03:52 Pleiades wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 03:45 Sovern wrote:
Personally, I think that war is a disgusting thing and I hope that in the future wars aren't fought with living human beings as it seems stupid to waste life on it. But, I do believe that going to war with the terrorists was a good thing as it helps the Iraqi civilians live a better life not having their life ran by evil dictators such as Saddam.
They wont have to worry about being killed by suicide bombers or other Iraqi based terrorist groups as much now that Iraq is starting to get a formidable military. The next step in my opinion is to get rid of religion as a whole (one of the sole things responsible for most of the terrorist groups in the middle east) and to start to bring the worlds dictators together so that we can have a unified government. Religion is not even one of the reason for terrorism. Terrorists use religion to fuel their own agenda. They warp it to a point to get others that follow that religion to gain power. The underlying cause of terrorism is much more than religion. Terrorism is created by fear to invoke fear. Fear causes anger which then in turn causes hate. Some people want to get rid of fear instead of facing it in this world.
Fear causes anger which causes hate? Nice conclusions there Yoda. The ignorance strong in you is.
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On October 24 2011 04:24 PraetorialGamer wrote:That's a bit liberal with the estimation, isn't it though?
You're right. There's most likely some villagers so isolated from the rest of society, it probably wouldn't affect them even if the Mongols came and killed the whole population again. So I guess 98%. 
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Bottom line is the US cannot afford this war anymore. Doesn't really matter if they pull, just a matter of when because the wars in the Middle East are not gonna help economic recovery.
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So... where are the US going to invade next?
User was warned for this post
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On October 24 2011 01:40 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +So why leave for a year. The fact of the matter is if the top US officials believe that we need to keep control of the strategically important Iraq/Middle east there is no reason to leave. The reason they stay they may come back is they have some intelligence that the country could fall to shit again.
Because there was an agreement to pull out the mass majority of troops by the end of 2011 that was signed in 2008??? The only reason the issue of keeping troops there is even an issue is because the IRAQI MILITARY feels they need more training and support before they can fully be self-sufficient. We currently have 39,000 troops in Iraq. We only need from 3k to 5k troops there to train. Of course we're pulling back the vast majority of our troops. God, if you're not going to post sources about "they have some intelligence that the country could fall to shit again." then I'm not going to bother responding since the military has already stated that Iraq has very low chances of falling back into a shithole. You already failed at arguing your point with evidence backing it up.
It's conspiracy theorists running rampant in every U.S. thread  ....The basic reason as to why the U.S. is pulling out is because frankly, its a cancer on the economy, even tho the military complex is large chunk of the economy, the economy over-all is not in a great shape where it can stimulate it, so it has just become an hamper. The other reason being is that of-course they could not come to a agreement on the "immunity" for U.S. troops, I think that was a bit over-board but yeah. There is also that other agreement where the U.S. agreed with Iraqi government that they will fully withdraw within a certain period of time, which has now expired.
The other reason of course is, in the eyes of people their saviors have basically become the occupiers, the U.S. relationship with the Iraqi government is not the best because the people see the government as U.S. puppets, it only makes sense that the U.S. withdraw almost fully, but extend their hand for help. While the U.S. is withdrawing, it will still have about 4-5k security personnel there to help the Iraqi government in any way, not to mention the U.S. has extended their hand again in any help that Iraq needs.
Now the question that remains to be seen is how Iraq will fair, not because of the mess there, but because the 3 different ethnic groups there basically hate each others guts and have done so for the past couple hundred years. It remains to be seen if they can work together and look past their differences to remain as a single country.
Anyway now for some more of my opinion, as to why the U.S. went to war, who knows. The main reason given was that Saddam was creating WMD and thats what the former leadership was selling, but we knew otherwise after the war, even tho we found some banned gas stashes, it still does not constitute for WMD that were described. It could of fairly well been just a ruse since they were in Afghanistan that they wanted to replace Saddam with somebody more friendly to the U.S. views. I doubt the oil played a major role as <10-11% of all U.S. oil comes from the middle east and majority is from the America's. Another reason could of been that Bush JR. was trying to finish what his father started, but that does not make sense, since the original reason for the Gulf-War was because Iraq invated Kuwait because they had a disagreement between each other.
From my understanding, Kuwait and Iraq share a large oil field and they had an agreement to pump equal amount of oil, but since after the Iran/Iraq war, Iraq was short on funds and started to pump more than the agreement. The other reason being of course is that majority of middle east hates Iran, it's religious and Iraq was like a shield for them. During the Iran/Iraq war, the Arab nations poured countless billions into Iraq to continue the war, but after the war was over they demanded the money back, hence why it's also another reason why Iraq invated Kuwait, as Kuwait I think controls 15-20% of the world's oil supply. while Iraq controls 12-15%. So when Saddam invaded Kuwait, the entire world community came to their defense. Their original plan was never to kick Saddam out of power, the purpose of the war was to push him out of Kuwait.
Hence why it's so confusing to figure out why the war in Iraq happened since many of the reasons don't really make sense and only Bush really knows the real answer, one which we may never know.
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On October 24 2011 04:33 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 03:52 Pleiades wrote:On October 24 2011 03:45 Sovern wrote:
Personally, I think that war is a disgusting thing and I hope that in the future wars aren't fought with living human beings as it seems stupid to waste life on it. But, I do believe that going to war with the terrorists was a good thing as it helps the Iraqi civilians live a better life not having their life ran by evil dictators such as Saddam.
They wont have to worry about being killed by suicide bombers or other Iraqi based terrorist groups as much now that Iraq is starting to get a formidable military. The next step in my opinion is to get rid of religion as a whole (one of the sole things responsible for most of the terrorist groups in the middle east) and to start to bring the worlds dictators together so that we can have a unified government. Religion is not even one of the reason for terrorism. Terrorists use religion to fuel their own agenda. They warp it to a point to get others that follow that religion to gain power. The underlying cause of terrorism is much more than religion. Terrorism is created by fear to invoke fear. Fear causes anger which then in turn causes hate. Some people want to get rid of fear instead of facing it in this world. Fear causes anger which causes hate? Nice conclusions there Yoda. The ignorance strong in you is.
So anger causes love?
Anyway religion is not responsible.Religion is not human so it cannot be responsible for anything.Same like history.
Yeah now with evil uncle saddam and good uncle obama away,and with oil fields in gentle and open hands of foreign oil firms,iraq can finaly begin to work its way to better tommorow,to brighter capital. future.
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On October 24 2011 06:11 whitelly wrote:
Anyway religion is not responsible.Religion is not human so it cannot be responsible for anything.Same like history.
I agree. Religion isnt human, its god and god does only good things.
+ Show Spoiler +religion had quite a fair share on everything what happened over there..
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Finally we get to see some of this change that Obama ran his campaign on.
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On October 24 2011 06:11 whitelly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 04:33 Euronyme wrote:On October 24 2011 03:52 Pleiades wrote:On October 24 2011 03:45 Sovern wrote:
Personally, I think that war is a disgusting thing and I hope that in the future wars aren't fought with living human beings as it seems stupid to waste life on it. But, I do believe that going to war with the terrorists was a good thing as it helps the Iraqi civilians live a better life not having their life ran by evil dictators such as Saddam.
They wont have to worry about being killed by suicide bombers or other Iraqi based terrorist groups as much now that Iraq is starting to get a formidable military. The next step in my opinion is to get rid of religion as a whole (one of the sole things responsible for most of the terrorist groups in the middle east) and to start to bring the worlds dictators together so that we can have a unified government. Religion is not even one of the reason for terrorism. Terrorists use religion to fuel their own agenda. They warp it to a point to get others that follow that religion to gain power. The underlying cause of terrorism is much more than religion. Terrorism is created by fear to invoke fear. Fear causes anger which then in turn causes hate. Some people want to get rid of fear instead of facing it in this world. Fear causes anger which causes hate? Nice conclusions there Yoda. The ignorance strong in you is. So anger causes love? Anyway religion is not responsible.Religion is not human so it cannot be responsible for anything.Same like history. Yeah now with evil uncle saddam and good uncle obama away,and with oil fields in gentle and open hands of foreign oil firms,iraq can finaly begin to work its way to better tommorow,to brighter capital. future.
It was a direct star wars quote, and a nonsensical one at that. Both fear and anger can cause a wide array of things. It's human emotion we're talking about here. I can't remember once that fear has cause anger in me. I usually just get.. scared and go away? And anger causing hate is the biggest BS ever. I can't remember how many times I've been temporarely angry at people and things that I love. Yoda sucks at philosophy.
Religion is human in every way possible. Religion is made up by humans. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that every religious text was written by a human.. Basically every religion tells the people to shut the fuck up, pay their taxes, kill anyone who starts asking questions or think differently and do as your masters tell you. A medieval power tool.
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Russian Federation269 Posts
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Bam! I believe that's one more in the bag for Obama. He's solved the American health care death spiral, killed the world's most dangerous terrorist, and now ended the most disastrous war in US history. What an inspirational leader.
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On October 22 2011 02:01 Josri wrote:
Fucking finally, you had no business there
Im pretty sure the OP wasn't shooting Iraqi's and bombing schools.
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On October 24 2011 03:52 tjosan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 03:45 Sovern wrote:
Personally, I think that war is a disgusting thing and I hope that in the future wars aren't fought with living human beings as it seems stupid to waste life on it. But, I do believe that going to war with the terrorists was a good thing as it helps the Iraqi civilians live a better life not having their life ran by evil dictators such as Saddam.
They wont have to worry about being killed by suicide bombers or other Iraqi based terrorist groups as much now that Iraq is starting to get a formidable military. The next step in my opinion is to get rid of religion as a whole (one of the sole things responsible for most of the terrorist groups in the middle east) and to start to bring the worlds dictators together so that we can have a unified government. What does "war with the terrorists" have to do with Iraq? There were no suicide bombings or Iraqi based terrorist groups (except those fighting against the regime, and the PKK) before the American invasion and subsequent military occupation. And when it comes to religion I think you should first take care of your own Christian extremists before "getting rid of" religion in the Middle East. Iraq was a highly secular society by the way. Much more secularized than USA is.
You're delusional and/or blind if you think that current Muslim extremists as a whole are worst then current Christian extremists. I agree that each religion has its own version of extremists but as a whole I think that we can agree that the Muslim ones take the most action.
The terrorists were Osama/Saddam/and all of the terrorist groups and Iraq was a terrible place to live in before the war. I know someone that used to live there and he told me that laws were basically non existent in most areas and they still followed the eye for an eye concept quite literally.
America basically turned Iraq into a modern day democracy by invading and helped get rid of a lot of the members of terrorist groups. If you honestly think that the world would be a better place with Osama and Saddam still alive and without us invading Iraq then you're lying to yourself.
Nice try at trying to insult me by the way, I wont step down to your level with the country insults.
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You're delusional and/or blind if you think that current Muslim extremists as a whole are worst then current Christian extremists. I agree that each religion has its own version of extremists but as a whole I think that we can agree that the Muslim ones take the most action.
Seriously...? You're going to try to argue the point that Muslim extremists > Christian extremists? Do you NOT remember what happened in Norway? Does the KKK and other extreme radical groups (including christian based cults) not count under Christian extremists? (Answer, yes they do).
You can bet your ass that if a Christian nation was invaded and then taken over by an Islamic nation bad shit would be going down FAST with regards to Christian extremists going crazy. Last time that happened we had a little thing called the Crusades and Inquisition.
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On October 24 2011 08:03 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 03:52 tjosan wrote:On October 24 2011 03:45 Sovern wrote:
Personally, I think that war is a disgusting thing and I hope that in the future wars aren't fought with living human beings as it seems stupid to waste life on it. But, I do believe that going to war with the terrorists was a good thing as it helps the Iraqi civilians live a better life not having their life ran by evil dictators such as Saddam.
They wont have to worry about being killed by suicide bombers or other Iraqi based terrorist groups as much now that Iraq is starting to get a formidable military. The next step in my opinion is to get rid of religion as a whole (one of the sole things responsible for most of the terrorist groups in the middle east) and to start to bring the worlds dictators together so that we can have a unified government. What does "war with the terrorists" have to do with Iraq? There were no suicide bombings or Iraqi based terrorist groups (except those fighting against the regime, and the PKK) before the American invasion and subsequent military occupation. And when it comes to religion I think you should first take care of your own Christian extremists before "getting rid of" religion in the Middle East. Iraq was a highly secular society by the way. Much more secularized than USA is. You're delusional and/or blind if you think that current Muslim extremists as a whole are worst then current Christian extremists. I agree that each religion has its own version of extremists but as a whole I think that we can agree that the Muslim ones take the most action. The terrorists were Osama/Saddam/and all of the terrorist groups and Iraq was a terrible place to live in before the war. I know someone that used to live there and he told me that laws were basically non existent in most areas and they still followed the eye for an eye concept quite literally. America basically turned Iraq into a modern day democracy by invading and helped get rid of a lot of the members of terrorist groups. If you honestly think that the world would be a better place with Osama and Saddam still alive and without us invading Iraq then you're lying to yourself. Nice try at trying to insult me by the way, I wont step down to your level with the country insults.
Saddam wasn't a terrorist. Bin Laden hated him. Al Qaeda in Iraq didn't exist until the U.S. invaded and gave them all the recruitment ammo they could ever dream of. Iraq wasn't a great place to live, but we sure contributed to that with the sanctions and bombings throughout the '90s. It's silly to think that we came riding in on a shining horse bearing democracy for the eager and grateful Iraqi masses.
edit: Also, it sounds like you think that Saddam had something to do with 9/11...
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. it is staggering, though, how many Americans were under that impression in 2003 when we invaded. The power of misinformation.
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On October 24 2011 08:17 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 08:03 Sovern wrote:On October 24 2011 03:52 tjosan wrote:On October 24 2011 03:45 Sovern wrote:
Personally, I think that war is a disgusting thing and I hope that in the future wars aren't fought with living human beings as it seems stupid to waste life on it. But, I do believe that going to war with the terrorists was a good thing as it helps the Iraqi civilians live a better life not having their life ran by evil dictators such as Saddam.
They wont have to worry about being killed by suicide bombers or other Iraqi based terrorist groups as much now that Iraq is starting to get a formidable military. The next step in my opinion is to get rid of religion as a whole (one of the sole things responsible for most of the terrorist groups in the middle east) and to start to bring the worlds dictators together so that we can have a unified government. What does "war with the terrorists" have to do with Iraq? There were no suicide bombings or Iraqi based terrorist groups (except those fighting against the regime, and the PKK) before the American invasion and subsequent military occupation. And when it comes to religion I think you should first take care of your own Christian extremists before "getting rid of" religion in the Middle East. Iraq was a highly secular society by the way. Much more secularized than USA is. You're delusional and/or blind if you think that current Muslim extremists as a whole are worst then current Christian extremists. I agree that each religion has its own version of extremists but as a whole I think that we can agree that the Muslim ones take the most action. The terrorists were Osama/Saddam/and all of the terrorist groups and Iraq was a terrible place to live in before the war. I know someone that used to live there and he told me that laws were basically non existent in most areas and they still followed the eye for an eye concept quite literally. America basically turned Iraq into a modern day democracy by invading and helped get rid of a lot of the members of terrorist groups. If you honestly think that the world would be a better place with Osama and Saddam still alive and without us invading Iraq then you're lying to yourself. Nice try at trying to insult me by the way, I wont step down to your level with the country insults. Saddam wasn't a terrorist. Bin Laden hated him. Al Qaeda in Iraq didn't exist until the U.S. invaded and gave them all the recruitment ammo they could ever dream of. Iraq wasn't a great place to live, but we sure contributed to that with the sanctions and bombings throughout the '90s. It's silly to think that we came riding in on a shining horse bearing democracy for the eager and grateful Iraqi masses.
That comment of his was so terribly inaccurate, I thought I was in a fan fic thread for a second. Especially the part about terrorists in Iraq (the country that fought a war against Islamic extremism), Iraq being a good place to live now and terrible before (quite the opposite in reality hahahaha if anything. Now it's complete shit lol and worse off than countries it used to give aid to), and particularly the "democracy" part. Lol. Widespread suppression, election fraud, making the election null because the ruling party lost, and banning most of the candidates is very democratic . Speaking of religious fanaticism, political fanaticism is just as funny and delusional .
In fact, the fact he still believes the myth about the "Al Qaeda links in Iraq" which was pure bogus and has been admitted as such (along with the WMDs hoax) shows how lost he is on the matter, although nearly everything else stated does that as well . I don't get it. Are people so terribly jingoistic as to justify horrifically twisted and destructive actions and then make them out to be some great successful utopian experiment? It's frightening that people would even think of doing something like that.
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