EPTDating: How's your luck? - Page 539
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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on. Posts of the following nature are banned: 1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post. 2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no. 3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture. 4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments. Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: He's right though. I don't think the people saying "Just be yourself" meant that you should totally come at the girl when you're at your worst. It means don't pretend to be something/ someone you're not. And how the heck can you just *decide* to be the best version of yourself (and what does that even mean?), especially if you don't even have the confidence to be your normal, comfortable self? Easy, fake it till you make it. Its like having a bad posture, at first you know that you recognize it so you need to conscious tell yourself to fix it. So it will feel and look somewhat not natural but you still got to emulate the optimal method. Then as your brain and body gets accustomed to the newly acquired habits, it becomes second nature. You absolutely have to bring the best version that you can perceive yourself into anything and this includes being someone that you are not. If you have bad attitude problem? Fuck that, you need to change it into a person of positivity. If you are out of shape? Fuck it, go hard on the gym. If you ain't smart enough, go hit the books to improve your intelligence. You got to at least pretend. If you ain't pretending, you ain't even trying. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:39 Xiphos wrote: Easy, fake it till you make it. Its like having a bad posture, at first you know that you recognize it so you need to conscious tell yourself to fix it. So it will feel and look somewhat not natural but you still got to emulate the optimal method. Then as your brain and body gets accustomed to the newly acquired habits, it becomes second nature. You absolutely have to bring the best version that you can perceive yourself into anything and this includes being someone that you are not. If you have bad attitude problem? Fuck that, you need to change it into a person of positivity. If you are out of shape? Fuck it, go hard on the gym. If you ain't smart enough, go hit the books to improve your intelligence. You got to at least pretend. If you ain't pretending, you ain't even trying. So... fake having good qualities that you don't have, to trick her into dating you, and then when you've convinced her you're a great guy, you can go back to being a dick? Or do you expect the guy to fake everything forever... because that's really just asking him to change who he is, which is not fake it until you make it. Obviously there's nothing wrong with being a nice and healthy individual, but you can't fake being skinny just to get a girl. And furthermore, deceiving someone is not a good way to start a relationship. A relationship is built on trust. Relevant: | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: So... fake having good qualities that you don't have, to trick her into dating you, and then when you've convinced her you're a great guy, you can go back to being a dick? Or do you expect the guy to fake everything forever... because that's really just asking him to change who he is, which is not fake it until you make it. Obviously there's nothing wrong with being a nice and healthy individual, but you can't fake being skinny just to get a girl. And furthermore, deceiving someone is not a good way to start a relationship. A relationship is built on trust. Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSdbQLXpmPQ Its all about perception. She doesn't know that you are faking it unless you break character. And in the end, you will acquire those qualities so all parties wins. You get the girl, she gets a great guy, and you'll end up improving yourself. So it is exactly to fake it until you make it (work). You ain't even refuting my point with that video, those guys are obviously famous, make decent money, and have the confidence which isn't what my points were predicated upon. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:50 Xiphos wrote: Its all about perception. She doesn't know that you are faking it unless you break character. And in the end, you will acquire those qualities so all parties wins. You get the girl, she gets a great guy, and you'll end up improving yourself. So it is exactly to fake it until you make it (work). There's no guarantee you will permanently acquire good qualities that you're temporarily faking just to get a girl. And she doesn't get a great guy; she'll get a fake loser who cares more about lying to make himself look good than be honest with her. Can I have an example of a quality you're talking about? Because you talked about weight loss, and that's not something you can fake. | ||
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crippledx
Singapore29 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:16 levelping wrote: If she is Singaporean too I'd strongly advise against being very aggressive. Like starting out with seduction in mind is most probably going to weird her out. I've a fantastic suggestion for you though. If you know her sort of well, ask her out for the night festival this weekend. You could say that you're really interested in exhibit X but have no one to go with\would like to see it with her (depends on how comfortable you are). Ask in person and not via phone. Make it a group outing if you're too shy. If it's a group, then make it a point to spend time with her specifically. Spend some effort dressing well (but be mindful it's gonna be pretty humid). Seriously the night festival is a great dating opportunity. P.s if you have access to a car, borrow it and pick her up/send her home. O and please don't be late. Yeap she's Singaporean. I only know her for few days haha. We're tutorial mates. And i'm quite busy on weekends though, not sure if she is alr attached. LOL I dont have a license yet but she can drive..lolol And guys, it's not about the confidence. I just dont do much small talk with girls...or with a lot of people actually | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's no guarantee you will permanently acquire good qualities that you're temporarily faking just to get a girl. And she doesn't get a great guy; she'll get a fake loser who cares more about lying to make himself look good than be honest with her. Yeah there is no guarantee that you'll get it. But there is no guarantee that you won't get anything in life. So you got to work hard to acquire those qualities by manipulating all the variables. And that's YOUR perception, but for her, she don't care about what you (a third party) say, she knows herself that what she have seen great things from that guy. | ||
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Yoz
Australia357 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: And how the heck can you just *decide* to be the best version of yourself (and what does that even mean?), especially if you don't even have the confidence to be your normal, comfortable self? Unsure how Xiphos intended it but I read that as projecting the right things at the right times. If you meet a girl and tell her all the negative things about yourself then you may never see the girl again. Even if you're overly honest then you could jeopardise the chances of future dates. At the same time if you embellish (or outright lie) too much then you potentially start a relationship on the premise that you're someone you're not. In which case it's going to get awfully tiring pretending to be someone and they'll probably see through you and leave shortly after anyway. Overall though while the statement to "be the best version of yourself" seems a little bizarre I don't think it's nonsensical in any way. Another good example is clothing. I've a tendency to dress pretty casual but if I'm going on a date I'd wear stuff from the more dressy end of my wardrobe rather than the hobo end - both are 'me' but one's probably considered a 'better version' or at least a better dressed version. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
As a Singaporean guy to another, I strongly suggest that you avoid doing what Xiphos just said. First, being yourself does not mean closing off self improvement or being a slob. You should always try to do that, and you can do so without pretending. Heck if you honestly just tell her that you're trying to improve yourself that's pretty sexy already since it shows you can make the effort. Second girls aren't stupid and they will know if you're putting up a front or pretending. It's much better to be sincere, since I think our society can be very impersonal and lonely and so some sincerity really helps build a personal connection. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:57 Yoz wrote: Unsure how Xiphos intended it but I read that as projecting the right things at the right times. If you meet a girl and tell her all the negative things about yourself then you may never see the girl again. Even if you're overly honest then you could jeopardise the chances of future dates. At the same time if you embellish (or outright lie) too much then you potentially start a relationship on the premise that you're someone you're not. In which case it's going to get awfully tiring pretending to be someone and they'll probably see through you and leave shortly after anyway. Overall though while the statement to "be the best version of yourself" seems a little bizarre I don't think it's nonsensical in any way. Another good example is clothing. I've a tendency to dress pretty casual but if I'm going on a date I'd wear stuff from the more dressy end of my wardrobe rather than the hobo end - both are 'me' but one's probably considered a 'better version' or at least a better dressed version. Yes, Yoz gets it. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:57 Xiphos wrote: Yeah there is no guarantee that you'll get it. But there is no guarantee that you won't get anything in life. So you got to work hard to acquire those qualities by manipulating all the variables. And that's YOUR perception, but for her, she don't care about what you (a third party), she knows herself that what she have seen great things from that guy. No one has recommended that a person shouldn't try to acquire favorable qualities. That's completely different than telling someone you have good qualities that you don't, and then just wishing that you did (or *eventually* working on them). You'll get called out for it, or the lying will fall apart, unless you already have the qualities (so then why bother trying to deceive your way into a relationship?). On August 29 2014 14:57 Yoz wrote: Unsure how Xiphos intended it but I read that as projecting the right things at the right times. If you meet a girl and tell her all the negative things about yourself then you may never see the girl again. Even if you're overly honest then you could jeopardise the chances of future dates. At the same time if you embellish (or outright lie) too much then you potentially start a relationship on the premise that you're someone you're not. In which case it's going to get awfully tiring pretending to be someone and they'll probably see through you and leave shortly after anyway. Overall though while the statement to "be the best version of yourself" seems a little bizarre I don't think it's nonsensical in any way. Another good example is clothing. I've a tendency to dress pretty casual but if I'm going on a date I'd wear stuff from the more dressy end of my wardrobe rather than the hobo end - both are 'me' but one's probably considered a 'better version' or at least a better dressed version. The clothing example makes sense, whereas Xiphos's wording and examples did not. I'm glad that you agree with me that embellishing and lying too much can start a relationship off on the wrong foot, since Xiphos seemed to think that wasn't a problem as long as you trick the girl. And obviously, no one is condoning the idea that you should rush to notify a new girl about all your flaws. Good, because it seems that you don't. I swear we have polar opposite ideas about essentially everything lol. All my opinions get attacked by you, and I vehemently disagree with pretty much everything you post. It's rather interesting. We must have had very different experiences with relationships and other things, growing up. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:56 crippledx wrote: Yeap she's Singaporean. I only know her for few days haha. We're tutorial mates. And i'm quite busy on weekends though, not sure if she is alr attached. LOL I dont have a license yet but she can drive..lolol And guys, it's not about the confidence. I just dont do much small talk with girls...or with a lot of people actually Well you gotta make time for her! This island is pretty small so you can find out her dating status quite easily with some Facebook searching. If it's just a few days asking her out alone is a bit rushed though. If you have a bunch of friends who can wing man for you that would help. Otherwise don't worry just get to know her first. | ||
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Yoz
Australia357 Posts
On August 29 2014 14:56 crippledx wrote: And guys, it's not about the confidence. I just dont do much small talk with girls...or with a lot of people actually Your options include: a) You can assume she likes to have light conversation and/or small talk and use this as practice; or b) You can assume she does not like to have light conversation and/or small talk and continue as you have. (Also see the second last paragraph as I feel it might be pertinent.) On August 29 2014 14:39 Xiphos wrote: Easy, fake it till you make it. Its like having a bad posture, at first you know that you recognize it so you need to conscious tell yourself to fix it. So it will feel and look somewhat not natural but you still got to emulate the optimal method. Then as your brain and body gets accustomed to the newly acquired habits, it becomes second nature. On August 29 2014 14:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's no guarantee you will permanently acquire good qualities that you're temporarily faking just to get a girl. And she doesn't get a great guy; she'll get a fake loser who cares more about lying to make himself look good than be honest with her. It's actually pretty interesting because I feel that you both started with valid points but because you are polarising each other it's turning to shit. And as a result neither of you are being as constructive as you could potentially be. Imho it depends on the individual and their perception on whether they want to self-develop in these particular areas. Using crippledx as an example lets assume that he believes his lack of 'small talk' abilities is a negative thing and wants to improve it because he sees it as a useful dating tool. In this situation I think 'fake it until you make it' works perfectly because skills are developed through practice. It's probably not advantageous to turn up and say that you have zero conversational skills and want to practice with her (if this is the truth) because she will probably think you are a creeper. However, if crippledx thinks that his lack of 'small talk' abilities is core to his character and does not ever want to improve or change this then it's highly inadvisable to fake it just to date this girl. She might expect that level of small talk regularly which will just be viewed as an absolute ton of wasted time and effort. Interestingly, I find a lot of my friends who are academically/intellectually geared seem to have no issues studying for tests/exams but for some reason this approach goes completely out the window with dating. If you want to learn to play a musical instrument you study some theory then practice. However, when it comes to social interactions it seems to go completely out the window - and I cannot figure out why. Also, I suspect that Xiphos and DarkPlasmaBall are seeking different things. One of you seems more short term and the other more like you're seeking marriage. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
This is where you are wrong. I never said to lie to girls or even trick them. Re-read everything carefully instead of filling your thought process with words that you wish I've said or by your own bias. The entire premise was to become the best version of yourself, even if it means faking it. This is an entire valid strategy. So the things you end up saying/doing isn't exactly lying but to elevate yourself into a higher status being. This is called marketing 101 if you haven't noticed already. And during the marketing, it really depends on what you want. A long term relationship or a short term, then you go into it prepared with a proper strategy of going from point A of a platonic relationship into point B, a romantic one. If you are thinking about a short term relationship, then the escalation must be quicker and more efficient. If you are thinking about a long term one, then that pace could be more mellow. But if you end up, getting so-called getting "caught" for marketing yourself, then so what? The girl will appreciate your effort and will like you even more by actively trying. And over the time, eventually you become a great marketer by second nature that you don't even think about it consciously. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On August 29 2014 15:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I think those are some good points, Yoz. I'm not necessarily trying to advise with marriage in mind though; just a successful boyfriend/ girlfriend relationship at the very least. Also, it's not just my view vs. Xiphos's; it's most people's advice here vs. Xiphos's, which is what we usually see in this thread. Only you, Levelping, and that Davos guy wants to "be yourself". Evilfatshit, Yoz, and I seems to agree on certain things. And even if you go way back, it is not most people that disagree with me. But then again, most of the people believed that the Earth was flat. And even today, the majority of the people believe that you can respond with "I weigh 150 pounds." as a response to "How much do you weigh?" when weight is scientifically associated with force rather than mass. Read up on argumentum ad populum. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On August 29 2014 15:20 Xiphos wrote: "No one has recommended that a person shouldn't try to acquire favorable qualities. That's completely different than telling someone you have good qualities that you don't, and then just wishing that you did (or *eventually* working on them). You'll get called out for it, or the lying will fall apart, unless you already have the qualities (so then why bother trying to deceive your way into a relationship?). " This is where you are wrong. I never said to lie to girls or even trick them. Re-read everything carefully instead of filling your thought process with words that you wish I've said or by your own bias. Ummm... On August 29 2014 12:32 Xiphos wrote: Don't be yourself On August 29 2014 14:39 Xiphos wrote: Easy, fake it On August 29 2014 14:39 Xiphos wrote: You got to at least pretend. On August 29 2014 14:50 Xiphos wrote: Its all about perception. She doesn't know that you are faking it unless you break character. In pretty much every post of yours, you condone being purposely deceitful. Granted, you think think the ends justify the means because you believe being purposely deceitful somehow translates into you actually becoming a better person by eventually acquiring better traits, but you're still lying to convince the girl. On August 29 2014 15:20 Xiphos wrote: But if you end up, getting so-called getting "caught" for marketing yourself, then so what? The girl will appreciate your effort and will like you even more by actively trying. Note that, yet again, you're excusing the act of being deceitful because you think the ends justify the means. That's still promoting lying though. And for the record, LOL at the girl "appreciating your effort". That's the most naive thing you've posted so far, to think it's more flattering than sleazy to purposely deceive a girl you want to have a relationship with. You should always be working on your flaws, and telling the girl how qualified you are when you actually aren't is just going to end up bad. On August 29 2014 15:29 Xiphos wrote: Read up on argumentum ad populum. I never said my opinion was necessarily right simply because people agreed with me. I just found it amusing. It also goes back to the last argument we had a few days ago about- yet again- being honest vs. the strawman of being purposely manipulative. And pretty much everyone was trying to explain things to you back then too. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
The entire basis of this argument is pretend to be the best version of yourself to get the girls, NOT to pretend to be deceiving which I explicitly said in the 2nd paragraph: "The entire premise was to become the best version of yourself, even if it means faking it. This is an entire valid strategy. So the things you end up saying/doing isn't exactly lying but to elevate yourself into a higher status being. This is called marketing 101 if you haven't noticed already. " Again please re-read everything carefully instead of filling your thought process with words that you wish I've said or by your own bias. Its very easy for anyone that does those mainstream media by cutting pieces there and there to present a false premise with no regard to the actual history pretext that precedes. Please refrain from it, I thought better of you. Let's get back to the main point, yes some people pretend that their best version of themselves is someone lying to get with a girl and that can be looked as immoral. But that's a personal choice of how do YOU see your best version. From this conversation, you seem to think that this "best version" is a lying man, then again this speaks more about your personal preference than mine. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
Being yourself does not mean doing nothing. It also does not mean you stop improving yourself. And why on earth must we pretend to be the best that we can be. Being the best we can be is something we should actively strive for and there's no need for deception or pretence. It's a very poor choice of words. Finally I'm going to wave my huge "Derailment" flag here. I think the op got the advice he's looking for and I'm talking with him on pm. | ||
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