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Bulgarian Riots - Page 35
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seitn
Finland27 Posts
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Tudi
Romania127 Posts
My response has an will be; LA Gang culture. Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.  You force me to start my reply with a sadface. You DON'T think LA Gang culture is a deviation hurtful to your society and that it needs to be stopped? I'm not talking about personal crusades, those would be themselves deviations. I'm talking about government and social action, which is the right response in a civilized state. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On September 29 2011 09:00 Tudi wrote: You force me to start my reply with a sadface. You DON'T think LA Gang culture is a deviation hurtful to your society and that it needs to be stopped? I'm not talking about personal crusades, those would be themselves deviations. I'm talking about government and social action, which is the right response in a civilized state.Okay, reading the last page is really starting to make my head hurt. He's simply making the distinction between "Those people over there are scum" and "Those people over there are scum, therefore everyone associated with them through biological means, is scum". | ||
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HereticSaint
United States240 Posts
On September 29 2011 09:00 Tudi wrote: You force me to start my reply with a sadface. You DON'T think LA Gang culture is a deviation hurtful to your society and that it needs to be stopped? I'm not talking about personal crusades, those would be themselves deviations. I'm talking about government and social action, which is the right response in a civilized state.The Government trying to stop these cultures from existing in their current form of perpetuating negative behavior, if done in the right way is great. The problem is, in this thread, people are going, "Well the Government has done everything it should, and the people of the countries have done everything to not be discriminatory they could." which leads to two places... A) A group of people who go, "Guess we just wait for the Roma to man up and go through with it despite prejudices and hardships." or B) The group of people who go, "We should deport or kill them." Yes, maybe the Roma will improve over time by themselves with the level of help and cooperation given, but depending on that to the point of being stagnant in how you interact with them isn't helpful. At the very least further discussions need to be had between them and the other races/ethnic groups to come to a better understanding and respect of one another. | ||
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RageBot
Israel1530 Posts
On September 29 2011 08:58 HereticSaint wrote: The problem comes when you label the thieves as a group of people. It is the exact same thing again as if I were to go, "In order to cut down on illegal gang activity we need to target the African American population in Los Angeles." I would be targeting a group of people and going, "You are all a problem" even though some of them are a problem, even though their culture perpetuates it doesn't make it alright. You can call it political correctness if you want, I'm not trying to appease someones moral view here though, merely using my own. However, the "group" of pepole he talks about are based on a culture that promotes thievery and other bad stuff, it's not an ethnic group that has a lot of criminals, but a culture that promotes criminal activity by it own's merits! I remember someone giving a link to a study here that gypsy's have an 80% unemploymant rate in countries like Bulgaria and such, it isn't a leap of logic to assume that at least 75% of them are such criminals. You can replace the word "gypsys" with "gangstas" for the same effect, it's obvious that they both mean Romans and Black Pepole, in the second example it also doesn't refer to all black pepole, but just the group who practicipates in "gangsta culture", now, in the gypsy's case, it's just that most of them come from this culture, and that their ethnicity's name isn't different from the name of their culture, so it is hard to seperate the two in a discussion. | ||
Bigpet
Germany533 Posts
On September 29 2011 09:05 HereticSaint wrote: At the very least further discussions need to be had between them and the other races/ethnic groups to come to a better understanding and respect of one another. This and education is exactly what needs to be done. However the problem is that there is resistance to education and cross-cultural communication among a significant part of them (to a small part in the non-Roma community as well). There have been attempts of forced assimilation throughout history and even the multicultural poster-child Norway has felt in the past that forced assimilation was necessary (in 1896, when they weren't that much of a multicultural haven). Forcing them is clearly not what is right here but you have to understand the frustration that went into those decisions. | ||
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Awesomeness
Germany1361 Posts
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HereticSaint
United States240 Posts
On September 29 2011 09:19 Awesomeness wrote: This thread is now about trying to explain the difference between culture and ethnicity to HereticSaint. I think we failed so far. This thread is now about trying to explain how people have outright said to murder gypsies to Awesomeness. The next ignorant reply like this I get I'm going to outright ignore, just so anyone else feeling the need to make a similar one and derail the thread will know. Just so everyone has an easy reference point from now on. -cul·ture /ˈkʌltʃər/ Show Spelled [kuhl-cher] noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing. noun 1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc. 2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc. 3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture. 4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training. 5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture. -ethnic [eth-nik] Example Sentences Origin eth·nic /ˈɛθnɪk/ Show Spelled[eth-nik] adjective 1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like. 2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups. 3. being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco. 4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group. 5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances. -rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[rey-siz-uhm] noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. -dis·crim·i·na·tion /dɪˌskrɪməˈneɪʃən/ Show Spelled[dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn] noun 1. an act or instance of discriminating. 2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination. 3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination. 4. Archaic . something that serves to differentiate. | ||
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Awesomeness
Germany1361 Posts
On September 29 2011 09:25 HereticSaint wrote: This thread is now about trying to explain how people have outright said to murder gypsies to Awesomeness. The next ignorant reply like this I get I'm going to outright ignore, just so anyone else feeling the need to make a similar one and derail the thread will know. Nobody who is trying to have a serious discussion here is saying that, yet you keep mentioning those retards like they represent the views of anyone who discussed this topic with you on the last few pages. I guess this is a stupid reply, so please ignore it. | ||
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HereticSaint
United States240 Posts
On September 29 2011 09:39 Awesomeness wrote: Nobody who is trying to have a serious discussion here is saying that, yet you keep mentioning those retards like they represent the views of anyone who discussed this topic with you on the last few pages. I guess this is a stupid reply, so please ignore it. I've been having a discussion with people who actually want to talk about solving the problem. The only people I'm shouting, "racism" at and talking to about things boiling down to semantics are the actual people who are being discriminatory towards to a group of people as a whole despite the merits of the individuals (or the people who outright want to talk about semantics for some ridiculous reason). Gypsy or roma to me is not interchangeable with murderer or thief, sorry. | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On September 27 2011 21:02 FireEagle wrote: What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general? I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it). It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive. The gypsy situation is kind of depressive, because meanwhile nearly all forms of racism is strictly tabu in Europe, seemingly racism against gypsies is not (to the same extent). The same thing is slowly becoming true for muslims aswell :/. | ||
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cellblock
Sweden206 Posts
On September 29 2011 09:50 Theovide wrote: I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it). It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive. lol. there is no difference between people...? Yes, there is a huge difference between gypsies and other citizens. they have been disliked by all nations they have moved to since hundreds of years ago, and that is because of their thief culture. you want the media to hide the facts, just like they do in Sweden? what a joke. | ||
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Bigpet
Germany533 Posts
On September 29 2011 09:50 Theovide wrote: I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it).+ Show Spoiler + It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive. The gypsy situation is kind of depressive, because meanwhile nearly all forms of racism is strictly tabu in Europe, seemingly racism against gypsies is not (to the same extent). The same thing is slowly becoming true for muslims aswell :/. Do you really feel that this is the one singular reason? Is it really so hard to believe that this is an issue that has been fostered by both sides? This is a topic where both sides are victims and perpetrators. I know that assigning blame to the minority plays into the right extremists hands but so does completely ignoring one side of the problem. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On September 29 2011 10:02 cellblock wrote: lol. there is no difference between people...? Yes, there is a huge difference between gypsies and other citizens. they have been disliked by all nations they have moved to since hundreds of years ago, and that is because of their thief culture. you want the media to hide the facts, just like they do in Sweden? what a joke. I think what he is trying to say is that there is a reason for this behaviour. If you say that they behave badly because of their culture, what makes their culture promote this kind of behaviour. You either believe that this group of people are somehow biologically inferior or you believe that their circumstances bring about these actions. This is what he means when he says "there is no difference between people and people" Well, what is about their circumstances / culture that causes this behaviour? It is very easy to say "They behave that way because that is how they always behaved". It is much harder to say "They behave that way because they believe that by integrating that are losing their history and this is more important to them than conforming to society's expectations." An alternative explanation may be that it is simply easier for them to "leach" off of society than it is to integrate. Well that isn't a problem with gypsies it is a problem with governance. Find a reason and you can find a solution. Ultimately blaming a people as a whole is a nice excuse to ignore a real problem. You either believe there is a reason people behave like this, or you believe thay cannot be helped. | ||
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whacks
25 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiziganism Can anyone honestly read all that & still claim that European society is innocent in all this. | ||
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nforce
Bulgaria116 Posts
No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! for 35 pages, lol. The truth is, we Bulgarians are among the most tolerant people (well, unless you count gays out those are still facing some hard times unless you're a famous gay of course). We've been tolerating governments that lie and steal for 20 years and then before that another government for 40 years that was even worse. It's just that the gypsies live off of out backs and for the vast majority don't want to start working and learning. But these riots are silly, they won't achieve anything and are mostly reason for the football (soccer) hooligans to get out there and break shit. Same applies for gypsy crowds getting together and looking for fights. It's how things work around here. Not nearly as entertaining and interesting as it might look from the outside I'm afraid | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
Gypsy culture has rejected mainstream society, it never intends to integrate. That would all be fine and dandy if they could actually support themselves, but they can't. So what is one to do who doesn't want to become a part of society but does want all the perks like food? Build your own industry to provide these things or steal. The more likely choice is obvious. Gypsies are never going to integrate because they don't want to integrate. They will keep stealing because they don't have much of an alternative when they are busy actively rejecting mainstream society. The solution isn't to be nice and invite them into society because their response will be "thanks but no thanks". To classify them as a culture of thieves is actually far more accurate then to claim they are innocent since the majority engage in criminal activity. Or maybe go the dutch approach. We give them villa's to live in. For some strange reason they still keep being anti-social rejects despite living tax free in a house far bigger then mine whilst i had to actually work for it. | ||
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vasatko2
Czech Republic28 Posts
On September 29 2011 13:35 whacks wrote: The roma-bashing is ridiculous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiziganism Can anyone honestly read all that & still claim that European society is innocent in all this. I have read that ,but.... European society can't become slave of gypsies who in some way are rasist towards the rest of people by their behavior We are doing as much as we can, it was said here so many times..... Just look at those 2 pictures at bottom of your link (those buldings were almost brand new), do you really think that some other culture could live in garbage? The only mamal who lives in garbage is ... you know what animal i mean | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
They come to a city/village, choose a soccer field, park or open public space, install themselves on it and completly trash the place, steal power from the grid and break water lines to get water while refusing any help from the outside. If you try to speak to them they won't answer, every place they go is met with a rise in criminality, and they don't accept any help. All the above is personal experience and facts, now maybe the people crying for racism (I do agree that some posts here are borderline racist or just plain racist) and that the solution is easy can tell us what to do? | ||
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Rebel_lion
United States271 Posts
Edit- When i lived in Germany the locals would all say the same things about Turkish people for what its worth. Are they as bad as gypsies? | ||
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