These comments make no sense. Just because it's likely that there is an error doesn't mean it is easy to find it. Why claim I claimed it would be easy to find the error?
It might be impossible to find the error. I actually would bet the error will never be found for good odds. That's how it is with experiments.
Of course they want others to look at their data and/or redo the experiment. But as I said before, it's all over the media now thanks to them. There are other courses to take to get other people to figure out what's wrong or to confirm the speed of neutrinos is experimentally shown to be in concordance with the theory.
If their data is correct, it will have all the consequences the media are reporting. You can't blame the media for that. They are probably mistaken. I'm not saying they are stupid or incompetent to have made it. I am just saying they should have prevented what is happening now with the media.
Again I believe that these scientists personally do believe they are unto something. If it was just a broken detector, they wouldn't have made it world news.
On September 23 2011 20:31 Suisen wrote: While there is bad journalism at work here, you can't really blame them in this case as the major fault lies behind the scientists publicizing this. I don't know why the hell they would believe the data they got and not assume an error in their measurements, because that's what it probably is. Some kind of arrogance probably. Neutrinos going faster than light make absolutely no sense and one needs good measurements from several different detectors and ways of measuring before you can believe these numbers. Right now we have a single case of bad measurements.
And this gets thrusted into the major news. When media report on science they always have some sensationalist article. Most of the time we have a person that flunked high school physics write the article and get everything terribly wrong. But not it's the scientists themselves. This is why some people don't give science the respect they deserve. Media articles like 'Shocking new discovery, scientists back to the drawing board' and stupid stuff like that.
If neutrinos truly go faster than the speed of light then either photons have mass, or it's even crazier. How can the speed of light be absolute in all frames of references when neutrinos obviously cannot but go faster? Also, neutrinos have mass, so what's up with that?
Something is wrong with their setup or their assumptions about their setup. Probably GPS error which they can't find. When the same experiment is done by a different team, they will get exactly the correct result, within the range of uncertainty.
If you read the paper they published, you'll see that they really really really did try to find an error of some kind that would explain the discrepancy. They've rerun the experiment 15'000 times and haven't been able to find anything. The group has come forward with their results and are practically begging for other people to step in and prove they're wrong. The "omg relativity is proven to be wrong" statements don't come from the researchers themselves.
oh okay thanks. found a link to a "preprint" on page 18 too. when I went to bed last night there wasn't a paper up :/. the pdf link actually doesn't work for me but yeah, I see there is a paper up.
On September 23 2011 21:06 Suisen wrote: These comments make no sense. Just because it's likely that there is an error doesn't mean it is easy to find it. Why claim I claimed it would be easy to find the error?
It might be impossible to find the error. I actually would bet the error will never be found for good odds. That's how it is with experiments.
Of course they want others to look at their data and/or redo the experiment. But as I said before, it's all over the media now thanks to them. There are other courses to take to get other people to figure out what's wrong or to confirm the speed of neutrinos is experimentally shown to be in concordance with the theory.
If their data is correct, it will have all the consequences the media are reporting. You can't blame the media for that. They are probably mistaken. I'm not saying they are stupid or incompetent to have made it. I am just saying they should have prevented what is happening now with the media.
man your opinion is so retarded it's even hard to think you are trolling. please think 10 times before posting anything and read the op before posting.
On September 23 2011 21:06 Suisen wrote: These comments make no sense. Just because it's likely that there is an error doesn't mean it is easy to find it. Why claim I claimed it would be easy to find the error?
It may be impossible to find the error. I actually would bet the error will never be found for good odds. That's how it is with experiments.
Of course they want others to look at their data and/or redo the experiment. But as I said before, it's all over the media now thanks to them. There are other courses to take to get other people to figure out what's wrong or to confirm the speed of neutrinos is experimentally shown to be in concordance with the theory.
If their data is true, it will have all the consequences the media are reporting. You can't blame the media for that.
The researchers have been open and honest with their data, but if the media choose to represent it as a shock story, it's the media that are to blame. And what's the problem with this story being all over the media? Did some major war start in the past 24 hours that I've missed?
On September 23 2011 20:31 Suisen wrote: While there is bad journalism at work here, you can't really blame them in this case as the major fault lies behind the scientists publicizing this. I don't know why the hell they would believe the data they got and not assume an error in their measurements, because that's what it probably is. Some kind of arrogance probably. Neutrinos going faster than light make absolutely no sense and one needs good measurements from several different detectors and ways of measuring before you can believe these numbers. Right now we have a single case of bad measurements.
And this gets thrusted into the major news. When media report on science they always have some sensationalist article. Most of the time we have a person that flunked high school physics write the article and get everything terribly wrong. But not it's the scientists themselves. This is why some people don't give science the respect they deserve. Media articles like 'Shocking new discovery, scientists back to the drawing board' and stupid stuff like that.
If neutrinos truly go faster than the speed of light then either photons have mass, or it's even crazier. How can the speed of light be absolute in all frames of references when neutrinos obviously cannot but go faster? Also, neutrinos have mass, so what's up with that?
Something is wrong with their setup or their assumptions about their setup. Probably GPS error which they can't find. When the same experiment is done by a different team, they will get exactly the correct result, within the range of uncertainty.
If you read the paper they published, you'll see that they really really really did try to find an error of some kind that would explain the discrepancy. They've rerun the experiment 15'000 times and haven't been able to find anything. The group has come forward with their results and are practically begging for other people to step in and prove they're wrong. The "omg relativity is proven to be wrong" statements don't come from the researchers themselves.
Despite the large significance of the measurement reported here and the stability of the analysis, the potentially great impact of the result motivates the continuation of our studies in order to investigate possible still unknown systematic effects that could explain the observed anomaly. We deliberately do not attempt any theoretical or phenomenological interpretation of the results.
Jesus Christ, they don't even "dare" to write about the unthinkable, they are merely presenting their results and the exact nature of their data they used.
On September 23 2011 21:06 Suisen wrote: But as I said before, it's all over the media now thanks to them.
What are you afraid of? That people will question their existence, believes, everything and fall into a state of apathy or go the other extreme and become violent, start a riot? Don't you think when a scientistic subject hits the mainstream media it is a postively stimulating event?
I am actually pretty shocked how my position is apparently so controversial. Very strange. Imagine every mistake in science that isn't easy to solve will be world news. Don't tell me scientists are inherently that naive.
Don't you think when a scientistic subject hits the mainstream media it is a postively stimulating event?
Yes. If you line up every science article that reaches the front page of papers/websites you will get the idea that scientists don't really know what they are doing, are fundamentally wrong all the time, have to go 'back to the drawing board' every once in a while, etc. So yes, it's almost all bad press. Look at the US. Scientists aren't believed anymore, party thanks to oil industry propaganda. Politicians can ignore their findings, be it global warming or overfishing, etc.
"LHC may create black holes." "Existence of dark matter questionable, according to new scientific paper" "New findings challenge big bang model" "Particle colliders all around the world again fail to find the 'god particle'" "Eintein's gravitational waves continue to ellude million dollar detector" "Scientists adjust age of the universe" "Dark Energy may not be what scientists believe it to be" "Revolution in the standard model?" "Strangeness of quantum mechanics baffle scientists" "Strange black hole behavior forces scientists to go back to the drawing board" "Scientists find brand new force of nature"
On September 23 2011 21:20 Suisen wrote: I am actually pretty shocked how my position is apparently so controversial. Very strange. Imagine every mistake in science that isn't easy to solve will be world news. Don't tell me scientists are inherently that naive.
it doesnt change anything whether or not its in the news
On September 23 2011 21:20 Suisen wrote: I am actually pretty shocked how my position is apparently so controversial. Very strange. Imagine every mistake in science that isn't easy to solve will be world news. Don't tell me scientists are inherently that naive.
The problem I think is that I don't really know why you think it's so bad for this to be in the news. You're so against it that you'd go as far as to restrict the scientific progress in order to prevent a science story to spread in the world. That ticks people off.
On September 23 2011 04:44 Warlike Prince wrote: my guess, the curvature of the earth is to blame. 700km is enough distance on land that if it went right through the ground it would not have to travel quite than far.
All these facilities are curvature adjusted (gives an interesting feel that the entirely straight 732KM tube would be at an incline in austria and at a different incline in CERN) However obviously the still most likely port of call to explain this is an error in distance measurement.
On September 23 2011 21:20 Suisen wrote: I am actually pretty shocked how my position is apparently so controversial. Very strange. Imagine every mistake in science that isn't easy to solve will be world news. Don't tell me scientists are inherently that naive.
it's not the fault of scientists if the media presents stuff in a populistic manner
I'm a law and economics scholar, and the stupidity revolving about economics in the media is outrageous. So what? I can't change it and certainly it won't help if all economists keep their theories to themselves from now on.
On September 23 2011 20:44 Suisen wrote: I didn't say they were lying. They put out a paper that almost suggests everything we know is wrong when instead they did an experiment, got questionable results but can't figure it out themselves. I don't know the answer either. But are you really suggesting they didn't make an error?
This is very embarrassing for them and somehow they got all over the media. Big mistake by them. I can't believe they would allow this to happen if they didn't themselves believe their own data. That's human arrogance you see all the time in science and science related disciplines. Scientists are still humans. What they should have done is have another team verify it with a different detector/detection method and keep quiet until them.
I don't know why you bring up high school physics. What is your point? Is the data most likely correct? Or did they indeed make a mistake? If you believe they made mistake and everyone on the world is talking about it, is that good or very bad?
People without degrees in physics really shouldn't comment about this.
I disagree. I believe they are actually being humble in saying that they don't know, and don't understand why this is happening. you do realize that this news is good news for them, since so many people are interested in it now. They are looking for an error, can't find it, hoping other people do. not human arrogance.
On September 23 2011 21:20 Suisen wrote: I am actually pretty shocked how my position is apparently so controversial. Very strange. Imagine every mistake in science that isn't easy to solve will be world news. Don't tell me scientists are inherently that naive.
It's not the scientist fault the media is stupid and they shouldn't cater to them as to how they conduct their buisness. I read factual inaccuracies each day in the news. If people are stupid enough to trust everything the news tell you then they probably don't have a better clue in the first place. So what's the harm?
Also you seemed to lecture the CERN people earlier without really providing much as to why your opinion would be worth any more.
On September 23 2011 04:44 Warlike Prince wrote: my guess, the curvature of the earth is to blame. 700km is enough distance on land that if it went right through the ground it would not have to travel quite than far.
All these facilities are curvature adjusted (gives an interesting feel that the entirely straight 732KM tube would be at an incline in austria and at a different incline in CERN) However obviously the still most likely port of call to explain this is an error in distance measurement.
You'd think that, but apparently they've got their error bars down rather tightly:
In this paper we report on the precision determination of the neutrino velocity, defined as the ratio of the precisely measured distance from CERN to OPERA to the time of flight of neutrinos travelling through the Earth’s crust. We used the high-statistics data taken by OPERA in the years 2009, 2010 and 2011. Dedicated upgrades of the timing systems for the time tagging of the CNGS beam at CERN and of the OPERA detector at LNGS resulted in a reduction of the systematic uncertainties down to the level of the statistical error. The measurement also relies on a high-accuracy geodesy campaign that allowed measuring the 730 km CNGS baseline with a precision of 20 cm.
We'd need an uncertainty of as much as 20 meters for the result to be invalidated. Still, it's possible that someone might not've been using proper SI units and measured stuff in yards instead.
Edit:
On September 23 2011 21:28 Suisen wrote: Well economists themselves can't agree on anything so you can't really compare it to science.
I do think it's a fair criticism to how media report on economics. It's either so politically loaded or they haven't found enough laws and truisms that it is so much a matter of opinion of ideology you can't fault others for having a different point of view.
If that's 'trolling' then is Feynman trolling too? Do sociology, psychology, etc deserve the same respect as physics?
EPT
