On October 09 2011 07:47 GeyzeR wrote: Silvio Berlusconi, Italian prime minister, said: "I do not understand why people say there is a problem to find a job. You can go to Germany or another country and find a job there." When a nice lady asked him similar question about job, he answered: "You are quite pretty, find a rich man do not bother with job" Politics are always ready to help jobless with a good advice
The guy who tells me to emigrate to another country to find a job can be grateful to have laws in place, so that I can't kill him.
Seriously, I'm glad when this piece of scum is finally being forced to step down.
Protests always do more than nothing, they bring the issues to the surface for a lot of people. The problem is our American media twisting the message. Half my family thinks its about lazy unemployed wanting free handouts.
Well that's what it is. "People before profit" actually does mean something, you know. It isn't just a "social justice" slogan.
Madkipz is half right about aid to Africa; too much of it is poorly targeted and does more damage to local economies than it helps to develop them. But most of the problem is political corruption or anarchy; those aren't reasons to stop aid, but rather to work harder to ensure it gets where it needs to go.
A massive problem is for Africa is ironically the subsidies and trade barriers the EU (and probably also the US but I don't know for sure) has. We want to give our farmers jobs so we subsidise them to stay competitive....
This whole not outsourcing thing isn't about the jobs, it's about people being scared that outsourcing will lose their jobs but guess what outsourcing to cheaper areas has been going on since the middle ages. Back then it was between 2 cities now it's between 2 continents. Just look at the Netherlands we outsourced a lot of our blue collar jobs but the ones where you still need knowledge for still exist ( chemicals, petroleum refining, and electrical machinery ).
Labor force - by occupation: agriculture: 2% industry: 18% services: 80% (2005 est.)
You see it's perfectly possible to have an economy built on services, granted that NL has the perfect spot for it and we're not as big as the US but it's still a good example. nice example of the services we provide: major European producer of synthetic drugs, including ecstasy, and cannabis cultivator; important gateway for cocaine, heroin, and hashish entering Europe; major source of US-bound ecstasy; large financial sector vulnerable to money laundering; significant consumer of ecstasy. + Show Spoiler +
I kid I kid
Besides on the point of Africa there are plenty of chances for even African countries to grow look at Nigeria, where Africa used to be the continent of uselessness companies look at it with oppertunities now!
anyway this is my last post on this thread I don't want it to get closed.
On October 09 2011 09:34 Kaitlin wrote: How do we fuck with their attempts at agriculture when they live in a fucking desert ?
Africa is not a desert.
We need some countries to be poor. So we can pay less for labor and resources.
This is a joke, right? You're openly admitting to exploitation as a healthy part of business conduct.
And to whomever posted the comment that we should cut off aid in order for troubled countries to figure it out for themselves. It doesn't work that way and you're masquerading greed as compassion (by saying the truly humane thing is to let them work it out on their with no aid)
Long Island Republican Congressman Peter King blasted the Occupy Wall Street protesters as anti-American today on a right-wing talk show.
“The fact is these people are anarchists. They have no idea what they’re doing out there,” King told host Laura Ingraham. “They have no sense of purpose other than a basically anti-American tone and anti-capitalist. It’s a ragtag mob basically.”
Criticism from GOPers on the marches has been growing louder and more frequent. Earlier today, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor–who is coming to New York City this weekend– called the protesters “a growing mob.”
King called on Americans to condemn the marches.
“We have to be careful not to allow this to get any legitimacy,” he said, adding “I’m taking this seriously in that I’m old enough to remember what happened in the 1960s when the left-wing took to the streets and somehow the media glorified them and it ended up shaping policy. We can’t allow that to happen.”
Disgusting. Apparently democracy is un-american.
It did not work for Mubarak, Gaddafi nor Assad. It will be interesting to see if this tactic of calling the protesters mediawhores and implying they are criminals will work for an opposition! How does an opposition even think that trying to stop these protests will help them?
On October 09 2011 09:34 Kaitlin wrote: How do we fuck with their attempts at agriculture when they live in a fucking desert ?
Africa is not a desert.
We need some countries to be poor. So we can pay less for labor and resources.
This is a joke, right? You're openly admitting to exploitation as a healthy part of business conduct.
And to whomever posted the comment that we should cut off aid in order for troubled countries to figure it out for themselves. It doesn't work that way and you're masquerading greed as compassion (by saying the truly humane thing is to let them work it out on their with no aid)
Isn't it? I'm not really privy in the capitalist/business world, but doesn't this mean bigger profits for everyone except the slaves they use to make, say, the shoes we wear?
On October 09 2011 09:34 Kaitlin wrote: How do we fuck with their attempts at agriculture when they live in a fucking desert ?
Africa is not a desert.
We need some countries to be poor. So we can pay less for labor and resources.
This is a joke, right? You're openly admitting to exploitation as a healthy part of business conduct.
And to whomever posted the comment that we should cut off aid in order for troubled countries to figure it out for themselves. It doesn't work that way and you're masquerading greed as compassion (by saying the truly humane thing is to let them work it out on their with no aid)
SK has an education system that push's the countries youth past the brink of suicide with full knowledge of what it does. It has grown they're nation to one of the strongest in the world. China's economy is a derge of exploitation of poor migrant workers from they're farmland which is slowly being unfarmable due to they're inability to regulate environmental destruction. The average lifespan of people in china is actually going down as the economy grows. With the utter lack of any copyright protection there is no real hope for a better future without screwing over the little guy.
The big problem is that there's shitty farming going on in africa. people come in with grain and shit and then the farmers can't make any money competing with that aid. then when the people are doing good and think their on their feet the aid leaves and the next year everyone starves. quality governing doesn't ever start because the aid organizations control everything that the people even care about. The people only give a fuck about the national governments as they're more likely to participate is the genocide of the tribe next to them then vote and pay taxes.
Theres a difference between the countries of Rhodesia where there was a nazi government with openly racist leader named Ian smith. The same people he oppressed (lets be honest the blacks) support him a lot more then the current president of Zimbabwe.
You tell me that zimbabwe being a "free" country is any better then the racist nazi dictatorship that rhodesia was.
I've tried to make a post like 4 times and just didn't post it because I didn't believe it was good enough. Fantastic contributions made by people on both sides well done everyone.
Long Island Republican Congressman Peter King blasted the Occupy Wall Street protesters as anti-American today on a right-wing talk show.
“The fact is these people are anarchists. They have no idea what they’re doing out there,” King told host Laura Ingraham. “They have no sense of purpose other than a basically anti-American tone and anti-capitalist. It’s a ragtag mob basically.”
Criticism from GOPers on the marches has been growing louder and more frequent. Earlier today, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor–who is coming to New York City this weekend– called the protesters “a growing mob.”
King called on Americans to condemn the marches.
“We have to be careful not to allow this to get any legitimacy,” he said, adding “I’m taking this seriously in that I’m old enough to remember what happened in the 1960s when the left-wing took to the streets and somehow the media glorified them and it ended up shaping policy. We can’t allow that to happen.”
Disgusting. Apparently democracy is un-american.
It did not work for Mubarak, Gaddafi nor Assad. It will be interesting to see if this tactic of calling the protesters mediawhores and implying they are criminals will work for an opposition! How does an opposition even think that trying to stop these protests will help them?
Comparing what's happening in the US to what happened / is happening in Egypt, Libya, and Syria is laughable. Completely different conditions.
Yeah, it was. Good for Chris Hedges to stand his ground and calmly correct him on everything he assumed. That VC (Lang?) is such a complete douchebag. He would fit right in with the Fox news crowd if they were in Canada.
On October 10 2011 06:14 xDaunt wrote: Comparing what's happening in the US to what happened / is happening in Egypt, Libya, and Syria is laughable. Completely different conditions.
It's not. Now you are a well known reality denier or extreme near fascist right wing personality on this site, but let me respond for others reading this.
The protests in Tunesia and Egypt were mainly caused by unemployment and rising prices. Fact is that both these pro western regimes implemented liberal economic policies like privatizing to wipe out the middle class. This can be statistically shown. Both their economies were growing. But poverty was increasing. Crownies allied with the dictators gained all the riches. These policies were implemented under US pressure. After Nasser died Sadat turned Egypt into a US client state. Mubarak continued this. As a reward they get free US tanks. And this is also a US government handout for their military industry so it also benefits the US regime that way.
In the US something completely similar is happening. Real wages haven't risen since 1970. Income inequality has increased since before that. It is now the same as it was in 1920. Regimes that oppress and torture aren't the reason why people revolt. Poverty also isn't. It is inequality. The middle class in the US is being wiped out.
Our governments in the mean time are servants of corporations. Merkel isn't in charge. Obama isn't in charge. Sarkozy isn't in charge, etc. Obama can do what he promised if he had the power. He doesn't. Merkel can solve the EU debt crisis. She probably wants to. But she doesn't have the power. She has to serve her banks. This goes before serving the German people.
In the mean time the banks hold the entire economy hostage. if they fail, they drag the whole economy down. They know this and they exploit this systemic risk extremely deliberately. They literally hold a gun against their own head and tell us they are about to pull the trigger while we give them money.
Banks traditionally have an important function. But what happened is that they started to operate a huge casino where they gambled with other people's money. This fictionalization of the economy does only harm even in the best case. In the best case it is like poker. It doesn't lose money but it is a brain drain. Smart people play a match in seeing who is the smartest or luckiest when the end result is only pushing around money virtually.
Another problem is the nature of the corporation itself. first off, it not being a democratic institution. Secondly, it being forced by law to only care about 1 thing; profit. They have to ignore every other effect of their actions. Thirdly, them hogging up the money. If you have citizens that want to enjoy their life and corporations that want to amass as much money as possible, in the end literally all the money will end up with the corporations. This isn't an absurd idea. This is understood by many economists. Corporations only spend money if they think it will get them more money. In fact we know many corporations have large amounts of money saved up that they don't spend. They take it out of the economy entirely. Apple is a good example. They even refuse to hand it out as dividend.
Another problem with the economic system, which has nothing to do what is traditionally called 'capitalism', is that it has booms and busts and is based on the idea there can be and has to be continuous growth. The economy cannot grow forever. It is a simple thing to understand for people who understand the exponential function. But in the mean time those who have control of the knobs that supposedly control the economy try to generate artificial growth. But these booms always result in busts. During both booms and busts, the superrich do relatively well. They ride the booms and the busts hit the poorest the hardest. This whole system is bad for a strong middle class.
US people don't kid yourself. Your country can collapse if this inequality continuous. The tea party are in fact also people who are angry about inequality. But since the US has such strong propaganda they are deluded and have all kinds of alternative theories. This you don't even see in the arab world where you would expect propaganda and their victims.
As for this current crisis, more and more I think the only solution at this point is for governments to seize control of all banks, failing ones, healthy ones and successful ones. It can't be the case that the taxpayer takes over all the failed and indebted banks while the banks sitting on the cash can just hand it out as bonuses and dividend to the top 1%. Also, bank taxes are only going to weaken the banks. We need banks. But these private banks are dangerous economic weapons aimed at the people. They need to be neutralized.
But protests will never force politicians to take this action. The only power the people still have is pulling out the money while they still own it and create a bank run on all banks so they collapse. But making this exact statement is illegal in my country for exactly that reason. Guess where I live?
Sigh. I'm on the left, but I thought his attack on corporations was fairly weak. Corporations are good in that they allow coordination between work groups to flow in a more organized manner. The internet is a good example. Distributed systems are secure, but they don't communicate well as every router communicates with every other router and they can get pretty bloated. Tree like systems organize well, but can be attacked at the head. Airplanes and telephones companies are able to organize traffic a lot better as subsystems have one parent to communicate to and the parent system is responsible for communicating with the parent above it. Small city airports fly to the nation's larger airplane hubs. Pearson, Calgary, Montreal, and Vancouver are responsible for coordinating international flights. Saskatoon, Regina, and Hamilton airports are not.
Bringing it to the corporation, having a chain of managers allows communication to be distributed quickly so that the organization moves as a unit. The military works well because of it's hierarchical structure and government has grown inefficient in recent years because of the permanent outsourcing that happens.
I just don't see how my Android phone would have been made by something other than a corporation. I don't see every independent tradesman owning their own manufacturing equipment. Pooling of resources and running the resources at full capacity doesn't happen outside a corporate structure.
In short, the guy is a hippy and he deserved to be insulted.
On October 10 2011 06:14 xDaunt wrote: Comparing what's happening in the US to what happened / is happening in Egypt, Libya, and Syria is laughable. Completely different conditions.
It's not. Now you are a well known reality denier or extreme near fascist right wing personality on this site, but let me respond for others reading this.
The protests in Tunesia and Egypt were mainly caused by unemployment and rising prices. Fact is that both these pro western regimes implemented liberal economic policies like privatizing to wipe out the middle class. This can be statistically shown. Both their economies were growing. But poverty was increasing. Crownies allied with the dictators gained all the riches. These policies were implemented under US pressure. After Nasser died Sadat turned Egypt into a US client state. Mubarak continued this. As a reward they get free US tanks. And this is also a US government handout for their military industry so it also benefits the US regime that way.
In the US something completely similar is happening. Real wages haven't risen since 1970. Income inequality has increased since before that. It is now the same as it was in 1920. Regimes that oppress and torture aren't the reason why people revolt. Poverty also isn't. It is inequality. The middle class in the US is being wiped out.
Our governments in the mean time are servants of corporations. Merkel isn't in charge. Obama isn't in charge. Sarkozy isn't in charge, etc. Obama can do what he promised if he had the power. He doesn't. Merkel can solve the EU debt crisis. She probably wants to. But she doesn't have the power. She has to serve her banks. This goes before serving the German people.
In the mean time the banks hold the entire economy hostage. if they fail, they drag the whole economy down. They know this and they exploit this systemic risk extremely deliberately. They literally hold a gun against their own head and tell us they are about to pull the trigger while we give them money.
Banks traditionally have an important function. But what happened is that they started to operate a huge casino where they gambled with other people's money. This fictionalization of the economy does only harm even in the best case. In the best case it is like poker. It doesn't lose money but it is a brain drain. Smart people play a match in seeing who is the smartest or luckiest when the end result is only pushing around money virtually.
Another problem is the nature of the corporation itself. first off, it not being a democratic institution. Secondly, it being forced by law to only care about 1 thing; profit. They have to ignore every other effect of their actions. Thirdly, them hogging up the money. If you have citizens that want to enjoy their life and corporations that want to amass as much money as possible, in the end literally all the money will end up with the corporations. This isn't an absurd idea. This is understood by many economists. Corporations only spend money if they think it will get them more money. In fact we know many corporations have large amounts of money saved up that they don't spend. They take it out of the economy entirely. Apple is a good example. They even refuse to hand it out as dividend.
Another problem with the economic system, which has nothing to do what is traditionally called 'capitalism', is that it has booms and busts and is based on the idea there can be and has to be continuous growth. The economy cannot grow forever. It is a simple thing to understand for people who understand the exponential function. But in the mean time those who have control of the knobs that supposedly control the economy try to generate artificial growth. But these booms always result in busts. During both booms and busts, the superrich do relatively well. They ride the booms and the busts hit the poorest the hardest. This whole system is bad for a strong middle class.
US people don't kid yourself. Your country can collapse if this inequality continuous. The tea party are in fact also people who are angry about inequality. But since the US has such strong propaganda they are deluded and have all kinds of alternative theories. This you don't even see in the arab world where you would expect propaganda and their victims.
As for this current crisis, more and more I think the only solution at this point is for governments to seize control of all banks, failing ones, healthy ones and successful ones. It can't be the case that the taxpayer takes over all the failed and indebted banks while the banks sitting on the cash can just hand it out as bonuses and dividend to the top 1%. Also, bank taxes are only going to weaken the banks. We need banks. But these private banks are dangerous economic weapons aimed at the people. They need to be neutralized.
But protests will never force politicians to take this action. The only power the people still have is pulling out the money while they still own it and create a bank run on all banks so they collapse. But making this exact statement is illegal in my country for exactly that reason. Guess where I live?
It's rare to see so much tripe in a single post. Why not just be honest and admit that you're a communist?
Comparing the widespread poverty and disenfranchisement of the Libyans, Egyptians, and Syrians to the comparatively minor problems in the US is intellectually dishonest at best. Quit pretending otherwise.
On October 10 2011 07:47 DetriusXii wrote: I just don't see how my Android phone would have been made by something other than a corporation. I don't see every independent tradesman owning their own manufacturing equipment. Pooling of resources and running the resources at full capacity doesn't happen outside a corporate structure.
In short, the guy is a hippy and he deserved to be insulted.
I can't see his criticism. But this ought to be besides the point. The point is an iphone is made in China under poor working conditions. They charge for the iphone that was the costumer is going to pay for it. They give the workers what they can get away with giving the worker. In the end the profit margin on an iphone is 64%.
The reason the iphone isn't cheaper or the workers don't get proper pay is corporate greed. In fact, it would be illegal for apple to sell the iphone for less or give the chinese workers more. It is literally stealing from their shareholders. Read Ford vs Dodge bros case.
Also, iphone is made using publicly funded technology. So how is it hard to imagine? Ever heard of MIT? And any change you make to how corporations work right now would make it different from how it works now. So how can't you imagine this? You can't imagine a mobile phone being made without it funding the Congo civil war? If so you have poor imagination.
A corporation today is not what a corporation was supposed to be when it was first conceived. Today corporations are more like medieval fiefdoms. The people are equally at their whim.
On October 10 2011 07:55 xDaunt wrote:
It's rare to see so much tripe in a single post. Why not just be honest and admit that you're a communist?
Epic!
Comparing the widespread poverty and disenfranchisement of the Libyans, Egyptians, and Syrians to the comparatively minor problems in the US is intellectually dishonest at best. Quit pretending otherwise.
Why? I can compare apples and oranges. I can compare apples and apple pie. I can compare apple and beef. I can compare apples and love.
The situation is not the same, but still very similar. But more importantly, they have the same causes as dissimilar as they may be. That was the point. They are similar and are caused by the same thing. I made arguments that you didn't address. I can give indisputable sources to back up the arguments. But I bet you don't even know where in my line of argument I go wrong. You don't like the conclusion because it doesn't fit your dogma. Egypt and the US aren't the same. Also I didn't bring up Libya and Syria so talk about intellectually dishonestly. People aren't stupid. They know what situation would be theoretically possible and what they actually get. They are dissatisfied exactly because they are a victim of deliberate policy choices. And there was a ton of true poverty in the US even before 2007. Also, the state of the US middle class is a statistical truth that can't be denied. You think it's not a problem. Others disagree. Try to convince a person that ought to be middle class but is now quite poor that the situation they are in is for the best.
US has a long history of class warfare. A class war where the lower class is unaware of a class war being waged against the. US has a long history of a big discrepancy between government policy and public opinion. Now when people suffer in their wallet, they start to wake up. Some turn to the tea party because they were tricked. Some turn to the occupy wall street movement.
Also, with your delusions you have it easy. No need to be intellectually dishonest. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a communist aka the devil.
Sigh. I'm on the left, but I thought his attack on corporations was fairly weak. Corporations are good in that they allow coordination between work groups to flow in a more organized manner. The internet is a good example. Distributed systems are secure, but they don't communicate well as every router communicates with every other router and they can get pretty bloated. Tree like systems organize well, but can be attacked at the head. Airplanes and telephones companies are able to organize traffic a lot better as subsystems have one parent to communicate to and the parent system is responsible for communicating with the parent above it. Small city airports fly to the nation's larger airplane hubs. Pearson, Calgary, Montreal, and Vancouver are responsible for coordinating international flights. Saskatoon, Regina, and Hamilton airports are not.
Bringing it to the corporation, having a chain of managers allows communication to be distributed quickly so that the organization moves as a unit. The military works well because of it's hierarchical structure and government has grown inefficient in recent years because of the permanent outsourcing that happens.
I just don't see how my Android phone would have been made by something other than a corporation. I don't see every independent tradesman owning their own manufacturing equipment. Pooling of resources and running the resources at full capacity doesn't happen outside a corporate structure.
In short, the guy is a hippy and he deserved to be insulted.
How you get that response out of what he said is quite the leap, everyone knows corporations are a way unify work force into a cohesive unit, as well as to mobilize product on an efficient level. This is not the argument what so ever, the problem we have here in America is that huge "BANKING" Firms used the money they received from the loans they KNEW the people could not afford, and in turn bet against the public to gain profit. This is not how anyone should conduct business, let alone the BIGGEST banking firms within our country, only to be bailed out with OUR money, for the CRIMES they committed. The greed and uncontrolled raping of our resources/economy is sicking. If you are to stoop so low as to call that man a hippy for the lucid outlook he has on the situation, then I believe I can stoop low as well and call you a BLIND IGNORANT TOOL BAG, keep being a sheep. moron.
Edit: Oh and by the way this is just ONE incident in a myriad of mass corruption. If we do not protest this current standard business practice, science help us all.
The constant polarizing of this situation is abhorrent. You must be a liberal, you must be a communist. Fuck that, using the political guise of left or right, communist or capitalist up or down black or white, is a total cop out used by morons to degenerate the topic into the same old bullshit. Why do you think abortion is always a topic in presidential elections, its because politics has the population so polarized, its an easy way to consistently get votes. As easy as it is to call anyone agreeing with this movement, a liberal or hippy.
Fuck you, This is not a fight of isms, its a fucking fight for basic human rights.
Aahahah that video was hilarious. The bald turd actually used "weakburger" and "low budget" to describe the movement. What the fuck is a weakburger? I better ask the next preteen troll I encounter on LoL for clarification because that's how they normally speak.
And using low budget as an insult against people who stand up to corporate greed is just golden.
EPT
