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On December 30 2012 05:56 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 05:37 HanFuzi wrote:
Without a clear plan of action, how can they be anything more than a bunch of kids who like causing trouble? You might want to have actually read more about what this organization was/is before making a statement like that. What you've said there is just an off-shoot of what the media owned by Murdoch and the other big media corporations were spamming on their networks: "These are a bunch of dirty hippies with no organization and no message" This is a complete lie. I am a retired original founding member with this group. Since long before anyone really heard about us in mass, we already had a message. Big businesses and big money need to be reformed or gotten rid of altogether. "Too Big to Fail" and whatnot are phrases we throw around very lightly these days. Back in the days of the Standard Oil Trust and the whole debacle there, "Too Big To Fail" was a huge issue and people rallied against it. If you study the history of money, you'll see its nothing but a product like iPods or anything else and its got a huge monopoly that no government will recognize as a monopoly because they're under that monopoly's paycheck and they believe that without them, "The Good Life" will end for them.
I...what?
Money has a monopoly? I don't even understand what that means. Money is something you exchange for goods and services, and it has always been that way. Whether it be seashells or gold bullion or paper money, it's the same concept.
Too big to fail has pretty much nothing to do with old companies like US Steel and Standard Oil because it was not an issue of "too big to fail" it was "too big." Too big to fail came a long because the US government had to bail a bunch of private firms out because they were handled with hilarious shortsightedness. US Steel and Standard Oil were never bailed out. Hell, JP Morgan bailed the US government out.
So, as far as saying OWS had a message, you've done a pretty abysmal job of making sense of their message.
On December 30 2012 06:15 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:05 HanFuzi wrote:On December 30 2012 06:03 Shiragaku wrote:On December 30 2012 05:59 HanFuzi wrote:On December 30 2012 05:56 sCCrooked wrote:On December 30 2012 05:37 HanFuzi wrote:
Without a clear plan of action, how can they be anything more than a bunch of kids who like causing trouble? You might want to have actually read more about what this organization was/is before making a statement like that. What you've said there is just an off-shoot of what the media owned by Murdoch and the other big media corporations were spamming on their networks: "These are a bunch of dirty hippies with no organization and no message" This is a complete lie. I am a retired original founding member with this group. Since long before anyone really heard about us in mass, we already had a message. Big businesses and big money need to be reformed or gotten rid of altogether. "Too Big to Fail" and whatnot are phrases we throw around very lightly these days. Back in the days of the Standard Oil Trust and the whole debacle there, "Too Big To Fail" was a huge issue and people rallied against it. If you study the history of money, you'll see its nothing but a product like iPods or anything else and its got a huge monopoly that no government will recognize as a monopoly because they're under that monopoly's paycheck and they believe that without them, "The Good Life" will end for them. Sure, you made note of a problem, and I agree that that is a problem. Got a solution more helpful than "fix it!"? When you are a leftist, you are in conflict with lots of other leftist ideologies. You should check out the arguments between communists, anarchists, social democrats, and democratic socialists. Nevertheless, they can come together to form a solution. A proposed solution is far more effective than merely raising the issue. Who are we supposed to propose this solution to? All members of all governments who have ever taken a loan from the World Bank, IMF or the Federal Reserve are under their direct control and influence. There is no governing body to submit real concerns to. The worst thing is nobody realizes how far this trust has stretched its tentacles. It owns every official, military-affiliated person, person who receives a paycheck from any company that has ever received a loan/grant/etc and every government office right down to the street police. There's no order that's not manipulated. No decision that's allowed without their consent. Even a massive movement involving literally thousands marching and hundreds of thousands more supporting at home got stumped because the media spammed flat-out lies on all channels and all newspapers. Sadly people are dumb enough to even read or watch all this obviously-manipulated and skewed information and take it all to heart without asking any sort of questions as to where it came from or how they arrived at their conclusions. Also a solution was conceived many years ago by a group we were working very closely with. They developed a documentary on the true history of America and how money has been manipulated and changed since the Medieval ages in Europe. The documentary was aired for many years on PBS before being ordered off the air from a mysterious contributor to the network who made a very considerable donation for their cooperation. The identity of this contributor was never revealed. The documentary is entitled "The Money Masters" and only the most intelligent people will even be able to wrap their minds around the level of manipulation that has gone on over the last millennium or so. Even less will be able to watch the whole thing, as its easily over 3 hours long and the narrator is rather mono-toned. If you can get past childish boredom setting in and sit still to let it all absorb, you will find it incredibly informative. You will also probably understand our position much like the well-known documentary on Greece's monetary issue does. There's nobody we can go to. All touched by this system are a part of it and will likely defend it because they're non-thinking and brainwashed through GMO, drugs and other external factors like money worries.
Okay, I'm out.
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Yo sCCrooked, are you another one of those Zeitgeist protesters by any chance? You sound and talk exactly like one.
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since when did zeitgeist movement became a negative term ?
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On December 30 2012 06:31 Diminisherqc wrote:
since when did zeitgeist movement became a negative term ?
Since their precious resource-based economy ideas are awful?
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On December 30 2012 06:32 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:31 Diminisherqc wrote:
since when did zeitgeist movement became a negative term ?
Since their precious resource-based economy ideas are awful?
It is also left-wing/libertarian propaganda protesting against propaganda. Also, it is not a political movement, it is a cult.
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I find it hard to take ridiculous conspiracy theories seriously.
If it's pointless to fight, why try?
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they still raise a valid point, that the monetary system is fucked up,and works for those who have control over ti since a couple hundreads of years.that you like it or not.
i'm half with you that theyre solution might *casue were all supposing stufff* not be viable
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On December 30 2012 06:35 Diminisherqc wrote:
they still raise a valid point, that the monetary system is fucked up,and works for those who have control over ti since a couple hundreads of years.that you like it or not.
i'm half with you that theyre solution might *casue were all supposing stufff* not be viable
It's easy to point out a problem. The recession did that.
It's hard and important to propose a solution that works.
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so your argument is since you ahve no solution ignore it and dont bring ti up ? .. i dont see your point behind your post ? ... lets brainstorm all together for good ideas !!! 
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On December 30 2012 06:38 Diminisherqc wrote:so your argument is since you ahve no solution ignore it and dont bring ti up ? .. i dont see your point behind your post ? ... lets brainstorm all together for good ideas !!!
Yes, let's brainstorm by first occupying the libraries before occupying Wall Street.
I despise Lenin with a passion, but he said "Learn, learn, learn."
If you are poverty like me and cannot afford to buy a book every week, check this out then.
http://oyc.yale.edu/sociology/socy-151#sessions
This is an excellent start to learning about politics and theory in general.
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On December 30 2012 06:38 Diminisherqc wrote:so your argument is since you ahve no solution ignore it and dont bring ti up ? .. i dont see your point behind your post ? ... lets brainstorm all together for good ideas !!!
My argument is: think of a solution, or no one should take you seriously.
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On December 30 2012 06:20 WTFZerg wrote:
I...what?
Money has a monopoly? I don't even understand what that means. Money is something you exchange for goods and services, and it has always been that way. Whether it be seashells or gold bullion or paper money, it's the same concept.
This is incredibly wrong and this myth of money always being just a means of exchange needs to be dispelled. Unfortunately I cannot go into depth once again right now but you can read some posts relating to this starting here.
I can only assume that sCCrooked refers to some Marxist analysis (or an offshoot) when he talks about money as commodity and if you don't get a seizure when hearing the name Marx it's a pretty inspiring approach which I unfortunately cannot explain right now as well. But I will give you that he was not all that clear in the paragraph you bolded (no offense intended sCCrooked, it's always nice if someone with actual experience joins the discussion).
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On December 30 2012 06:41 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:20 WTFZerg wrote:
I...what?
Money has a monopoly? I don't even understand what that means. Money is something you exchange for goods and services, and it has always been that way. Whether it be seashells or gold bullion or paper money, it's the same concept.
This is incredibly wrong and this myth of money always being just a means of exchange needs to be dispelled. Unfortunately I cannot go into depth once again right now but you can read some posts relating to this starting here. I can only assume that sCCrooked refers to some Marxist analysis (or an offshoot) when he talks about money as commodity and if you don't get a seizure when hearing the name Marx it's a pretty inspiring approach which I unfortunately cannot explain right now as well. But I will give you that he was not all that clear in the paragraph you bolded (no offense intended sCCrooked, it's always nice if someone with actual experience joins the discussion).
Economics alone gives three different purposes for money, so it's definitely not just a medium of exchange.
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On December 30 2012 06:41 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:20 WTFZerg wrote:
I...what?
Money has a monopoly? I don't even understand what that means. Money is something you exchange for goods and services, and it has always been that way. Whether it be seashells or gold bullion or paper money, it's the same concept.
This is incredibly wrong and this myth of money always being just a means of exchange needs to be dispelled. Unfortunately I cannot go into depth once again right now but you can read some posts relating to this starting here. I can only assume that sCCrooked refers to some Marxist analysis (or an offshoot) when he talks about money as commodity and if you don't get a seizure when hearing the name Marx it's a pretty inspiring approach which I unfortunately cannot explain right now as well. But I will give you that he was not all that clear in the paragraph you bolded (no offense intended sCCrooked, it's always nice if someone with actual experience joins the discussion).
Did you just link me to a post of your own on another thread, that is also incorrect? Well, that's interesting.
Money is, and always has been, used as the means of exchange. You say in that post that most of the time you can't buy food with money? What the hell does that even mean? Of course you can buy food with money. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any time I have been unable to buy food with money.
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On December 30 2012 06:40 HanFuzi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:38 Diminisherqc wrote:so your argument is since you ahve no solution ignore it and dont bring ti up ? .. i dont see your point behind your post ? ... lets brainstorm all together for good ideas !!! My argument is: think of a solution, or no one should take you seriously.
martin luther king had no real solution to racism ...so people should not take him seriously??*excuse me he called for multipleboycott but im sure occupy ppl did too lol ** ?.yes he was an incredible man but he had no real solution .. not like racism is gone anyway in u.s.a. .So yhea i think you should be taken seriously even if you dont have a definitive 100 % perfect solution
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On December 30 2012 06:45 Diminisherqc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:40 HanFuzi wrote:On December 30 2012 06:38 Diminisherqc wrote:so your argument is since you ahve no solution ignore it and dont bring ti up ? .. i dont see your point behind your post ? ... lets brainstorm all together for good ideas !!! My argument is: think of a solution, or no one should take you seriously. martin luther king had no real solution to racism ...so people should not take him seriously??*excuse me he called for multipleboycott but im sure occupy ppl did too lol ** ?.yes he was an incredible man but he had no real solution .. not like racism is gone anyway in u.s.a. .So yhea i think you should be taken seriously even if you dont have a definitive 100 % perfect solution
Perfect solution? No, this is unreasonable.
A unified solution that can be tested and considered? Yes.
MLK wanted to integrate. That's a solution, and it somewhat worked.
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On December 30 2012 06:45 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:41 silynxer wrote:On December 30 2012 06:20 WTFZerg wrote:
I...what?
Money has a monopoly? I don't even understand what that means. Money is something you exchange for goods and services, and it has always been that way. Whether it be seashells or gold bullion or paper money, it's the same concept.
This is incredibly wrong and this myth of money always being just a means of exchange needs to be dispelled. Unfortunately I cannot go into depth once again right now but you can read some posts relating to this starting here. I can only assume that sCCrooked refers to some Marxist analysis (or an offshoot) when he talks about money as commodity and if you don't get a seizure when hearing the name Marx it's a pretty inspiring approach which I unfortunately cannot explain right now as well. But I will give you that he was not all that clear in the paragraph you bolded (no offense intended sCCrooked, it's always nice if someone with actual experience joins the discussion). Did you just link me to a post of your own on another thread, that is also incorrect? Well, that's interesting. Money is, and always has been, used as the means of exchange. You say in that post that most of the time you can't buy food with money? What the hell does that even mean? Of course you can buy food with money. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any time I have been unable to buy food with money.
Not that I fully agree with sily, but he is right that money is more than just a medium of exchange.
You can buy food with money because your money of choice is stable. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be so lucky.
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I...what?
Money has a monopoly? I don't even understand what that means. Money is something you exchange for goods and services, and it has always been that way. Whether it be seashells or gold bullion or paper money, it's the same concept.
Your definition of money is very basic. Perhaps I should expand upon this a bit and see if it clears things up a bit.
What do we know about products business-wise?
-All Products have a dedicated manufacturer
-All Products have an intended market
-All Products are pushed to that market in every conceivable way to make it more valuable to peoples' lives
-All Products are trademarked and counterfeiting is considered criminal
Now what can we draw between those and money?
-Money has a dedicated manufacturer. It is NOT your governments. Banks owned by the F.R. make it.
-Money has an intended market. All people on Earth.
-Money is pushed into your lives and governs it. It determines what you can eat or even if you can eat. It determines what kind of dwelling you can live in. It determines if you have power, water, plumbing, clothing and any sort of entertainment. Everyone is chasing the currency of their country and they even manipulated "music" so all you here is "hoes and currency signs" type of music.
-Money is trademarked and counterfeiting it is one of the harshest criminal acts using the current "justice" system.
Money is in fact a registered and trademarked product. Money just happens to be the one thing that's good for trading for anything.
Yo sCCrooked, are you another one of those Zeitgeist protesters by any chance? You sound and talk exactly like one
I am vehemently against the Zeitgeist idea since it sounds like a huge scam system that doesn't address real issues we face. However I have found that most people who possess either little or no education on money or non-manipulated history tend to lump Zeitgeist with the occupy movement type of message for monetary reform.
There is one big thing that should've set you off if you really knew what Zeitgeist was or what Occupy was about. That thing is "Monetary Reform". If I were a Zeitgeister, I'd say it needs to be done away with. Money allows goods and services to pass more smoothly since it can be used for ANYTHING. Its the "universal gift card" so to speak.
"Monetary Reform" means you still keep a monetary system. We still need it as things are right now. However having external companies creating money without us having any say has inflated to the point where there's so much money being thrown around at the top and next to nothing at the bottom. Anyone familiar with what America is facing with the "fiscal cliff" should know that this sort of BS is because we are under the rule of the Federal Reserve.
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On December 30 2012 06:40 HanFuzi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:38 Diminisherqc wrote:so your argument is since you ahve no solution ignore it and dont bring ti up ? .. i dont see your point behind your post ? ... lets brainstorm all together for good ideas !!! My argument is: think of a solution, or no one should take you seriously.
A solution would necessarily be about 1000 pages long and need a strategy to pass the House, Senate, and White House. Drawing attention to a cause is a perfectly legitimate way of effecting a solution, as it draws more attention from people capable of proposing answers.
Unless, of course, your life ideology stops at "free markets". Then your "solution" is perfectly straightforward.
On December 30 2012 06:54 sCCrooked wrote:
Anyone familiar with what America is facing with the "fiscall cliff" should know that this sort of BS is because we are under the rule of the Federal Reserve.
The Federal Reserve is not responsible for the fiscal cliff. The Federal Reserve does have a lot of power concerning politics in the United States.
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On December 30 2012 06:45 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:41 silynxer wrote:This is incredibly wrong and this myth of money always being just a means of exchange needs to be dispelled. Unfortunately I cannot go into depth once again right now but you can read some posts relating to this starting here. I can only assume that sCCrooked refers to some Marxist analysis (or an offshoot) when he talks about money as commodity and if you don't get a seizure when hearing the name Marx it's a pretty inspiring approach which I unfortunately cannot explain right now as well. But I will give you that he was not all that clear in the paragraph you bolded (no offense intended sCCrooked, it's always nice if someone with actual experience joins the discussion). Did you just link me to a post of your own on another thread, that is also incorrect? Well, that's interesting. Money is, and always has been, used as the means of exchange. You say in that post that most of the time you can't buy food with money? What the hell does that even mean? Of course you can buy food with money. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any time I have been unable to buy food with money.
You don't need to get all defensive read what I wrote and take the opportunity to learn something. In that post I was specifically talking about so called bead and shell money, if you follow the discussion you will find sources to read.
To give you a helping hand in starting: Money is obviously also a commodity (the real stuff) and that there must exist an entity with the ability to issue money should give you a hint that money is a bit more complicated than a medium of exchange.
Well I'll be out now for a couple of days, if you truly are interested in this I can try to come back to answer your questions.
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EPT
