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My favorite part of this thread is the part where no one seems to have actual read the article and everyone discusses some trivial details (which may or may not have been part of the actual article) instead of the broader themes and ideas of the article.
Yes, it was absolutely a mistake for him to misquote Day[9], especially when he could have just used any TL thread on women players/casters/teams/tournaments/etc. to support his theory of causal misogyny and casual acceptance of misogyny embedded in video game/magic culture.
If you disagree with him that's fine, but please read the article first. When you make your argument, please don't focus on trivial details. You can point them out, but remember that the theory evolution has some holes too (however, this doesn't make it any less true).
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On September 18 2011 06:52 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 06:44 itkovian wrote:
Uhhh, Day9 is definitely not sexist. I remember something along the lines of him making a joke about an ex gf or something, and I think it has been taken a little out of context here. Day9 is the most inclusive gamer I can think of, as it his self-declared purpose to spread e-sports as far as he can, and to be sexist wouldn't help his cause in any way. The writer of the article isn't saying Day[9] is sexist. He's saying that gamer culture is so male driven that things like this, which is mildly sexist, aren't really picked up on by other people in the community. The writer says he really likes what Day[9] is doing for gaming and his attitude towards being gamer. It's just he is sad that no one in the community cares about stuff like this which will scare off outsides who may want to join in.
People didnt get pissed at Day9 because he didn't actually call her a "young bitch". The quote was invented.
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1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his. This author is obviously very savvy, the article is well written and--if you didn't notice--it appeals to ALL sorts of different games. The day9 thing was a ploy to get more readers, which it did. The core message of the article justifies this, and nowhere in the article does the author actually bash day9. actually does the opposite. he just uses that paraphrase
2) In a largely male-dominated scene, female-only things are necessary. There's a point where it goes too far, but we're not near there yet.
3) nerd, on the whole, are astoundingly sexist. i turned on the sheth/destiny stream and watched it for 5 mins. i turned it off when (dont know who) started saying some really fucking sexist things to a girl and she just had to take them, laugh & shrug it off. it actually disturbed me a little bit despite operating in really misogynistic environments, maybe just the fact its a stream representing esports for charity and that shit was on it.
4)
On September 18 2011 06:52 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 06:44 itkovian wrote:
Uhhh, Day9 is definitely not sexist. I remember something along the lines of him making a joke about an ex gf or something, and I think it has been taken a little out of context here. Day9 is the most inclusive gamer I can think of, as it his self-declared purpose to spread e-sports as far as he can, and to be sexist wouldn't help his cause in any way. The writer of the article isn't saying Day[9] is sexist. He's saying that gamer culture is so male driven that things like this, which is mildly sexist, aren't really picked up on by other people in the community. The writer says he really likes what Day[9] is doing for gaming and his attitude towards being gamer. It's just he is sad that no one in the community cares about stuff like this which will scare off outsides who may want to join in.
I do. I really do. in a little over a year, i will be forming that community
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On September 18 2011 06:56 lorkac wrote:
"Manly" is a termed used to define someone as being tough, strong, possibly bullheaded and strong willed.
"Girly" is a term we use to define someone as weak, shy and submissive.
When a girl is called "manly" it is usually because she is seen as either ugly or strong willed or even (in the case of the Olympics and Tennis (the Williams sisters)) because the woman is winning in a physical event far and above her peers.
Esports has this problem. Esports attacks female players such as Eve harassing her constantly for trying to get into Esports. When the Ironlady tournament was posted here on TL, it was also attacked by males.
The videogame "nerd" culture is a very misogynistic subgroup of society mostly because it is a very male oriented subgroup. Women are only understood as "part" of the group so long as they either play a part where they are objectified (Anna Prosser, lindsay sporrer) or if they attempt to be more masculine (such as the Ironlady tournament being attacked simply because i was female only).
This is not limited to ESports. Women are only really accepted into jock culture so long as they do "masculine" things such as enjoy football in an aggressive and competitive way (as opposed to simply talking about how much they think ______ player is cute/sexy).
In essence, so long as the female is objectified, they are not allowed to be female or feminine. This is not done directly to their face, this is done indirectly as females observe males throw insults at other males wherein the insults are normally a male calling the other male a female of some type (pussy, bitch, cunt) or calling the person who is dominating a sexually dominant figure (fucker, cock, "you fucked me over," "I got fucked over," etc...)
It's just the way it is in first world countries.
people dislike(d) eve and the ironlady tournament for singling out females and calling them professionals when they are competing a level nothing like real professionals.
Nothing to do with gender, stop creating issues. We dont want your drama.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 18 2011 07:05 zimz wrote:
whats with all the articles about sexism in video games.... girls can get popular being skilled or just looking pretty on here.
That's why.
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On September 18 2011 07:11 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his.
The problem is, that many twists can turn anything into anything. Misquoting a paraphrased sentiment is roughly the equivalent of combining random words into a completely incoherent sentence.
Sentiment:
I believe the holocaust was a grave error in judgement by the Nazis. They should have assumed genocide would piss off a lot of people.
Paraphrased sentiment:
Nazis were stupid.
Misquoted paraphrased sentiment:
Nazis weren't stupid.
You see how quickly that went awry, right?
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I promised I wouldn't get involved :< I just get pissed when I read shit like this (the article in question, more specifically the supposed quote from day9)
"Oh, I misheard what he said because i'm a retard, clearly this foolish nerd does not realize that calling someone a bitch is generally inappropriate"
-_-;; yeah wont get anymore involved, just had to vent on that
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On September 18 2011 07:15 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:05 zimz wrote:
whats with all the articles about sexism in video games.... girls can get popular being skilled or just looking pretty on here. That's why.
obvious troll is obvious.
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On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize.
no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him.
please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw.
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On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw.
... So purposely misquoting someone for more viewers isn't crappy journalism? Give me a break.
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On September 18 2011 07:15 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:05 zimz wrote:
whats with all the articles about sexism in video games.... girls can get popular being skilled or just looking pretty on here. That's why.
I'm sure all girls making sure to get as much attention as possible with their girly nicknames, girls only groups and leagues are very upset the world is so sexist they get the attention they want. I saw the profile of a semi-well known female player - she was like gold league but master 3v3 because she played with (people like) Ret and ToD. I don't think she was very disappointed she got to play with those guys just because she was a girl. Personally I think girls online are usually treated better than guys, but if sexism online is really a problem perhaps they should stop acting like they're so different and special.
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On September 18 2011 07:17 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:11 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his. The problem is, that many twists can turn anything into anything. Misquoting a paraphrased sentiment is roughly the equivalent of combining random words into a completely incoherent sentence. Sentiment: Show nested quote +I believe the holocaust was a grave error in judgement by the Nazis. They should have assumed genocide would piss off a lot of people.
Paraphrased sentiment: Misquoted paraphrased sentiment: You see how quickly that went awry, right?
we have diff definitions, misquote = taken out of context, paraphrased sentiment = day9 mad at this girl for poking fun at him but knew what it was and related in charming little story
agreed on your analysis of that. but i agree with what this article says, and because of that i believe that in this specific case (this article i agree with) in this specific context (driving in readers from all major gaming areas on the internet--a realm of immense volume where the only way to get headlines is to at least appear sensational) is completely justifiable and ethical
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On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw.
Idiot....
My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female.
You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off.
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On September 18 2011 07:20 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. ... So purposely misquoting someone for more viewers isn't crappy journalism? Give me a break.
he didn't insult him. he used that quote out of context to get us to read the article, where he reccomended day9 but exposed latent beliefs we aren't aware of which can help us move forward as a community
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On September 18 2011 07:25 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:20 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. ... So purposely misquoting someone for more viewers isn't crappy journalism? Give me a break. he didn't insult him. he used that quote out of context to get us to read the article, where he reccomended day9 but exposed latent beliefs we aren't aware of which can help us move forward as a community
He didnt expose latent beliefs, he fabricated an insult to try to prove a point that doesnt actually exist.
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On September 18 2011 07:22 diverzee wrote:Personally I think girls online are usually treated better than guys, but if sexism online is really a problem perhaps they should stop acting like they're so different and special.
Spoken like an oblivious member of the privileged group. Well done.
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On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Idiot.... My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female. You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off.
thats great. im glad you have fun with it, im glad they do. i like the fact you have a positive experience from this. but, i would like to point out, this is your personal experience. in mine, the community is actually really sexist. i belong to a video game club on campus where i cant believe some of the shit they say when female members arent around. this article has identified and contextualized a problem which exists and warrants exposure.
you can hate my idea, you can think it an utter waste of time, but dont hate people
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On September 18 2011 07:24 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:17 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:11 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his. The problem is, that many twists can turn anything into anything. Misquoting a paraphrased sentiment is roughly the equivalent of combining random words into a completely incoherent sentence. Sentiment: I believe the holocaust was a grave error in judgement by the Nazis. They should have assumed genocide would piss off a lot of people.
Paraphrased sentiment: Nazis were stupid.
Misquoted paraphrased sentiment: Nazis weren't stupid. You see how quickly that went awry, right? we have diff definitions, misquote = taken out of context, paraphrased sentiment = day9 mad at this girl for poking fun at him but knew what it was and related in charming little story agreed on your analysis of that. but i agree with what this article says, and because of that i believe that in this specific case (this article i agree with) in this specific context (driving in readers from all major gaming areas on the internet--a realm of immense volume where the only way to get headlines is to at least appear sensational) is completely justifiable and ethical
So you think it's fine to misquote people and alter the truth?
Cool.
KurtistheTurtle walked out his door yesterday and yelled to the world: "God I love Nazis!"
I'm sure you don't mind me writing that article. I mean, the subject is super touchy and will get a lot of response because I don't stick to the truth.
Sexism is a very real problem, but to make up shit to get more hits on your article is bad journalism, bad ethics and downright pathetic.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 18 2011 07:22 diverzee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:15 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:05 zimz wrote:
whats with all the articles about sexism in video games.... girls can get popular being skilled or just looking pretty on here. That's why. I'm sure all girls making sure to get as much attention as possible with their girly nicknames, girls only groups and leagues are very upset the world is so sexist they get the attention they want. I saw the profile of a semi-well known female player - she was like gold league but master 3v3 because she played with (people like) Ret and ToD. I don't think she was very disappointed she got to play with those guys just because she was a girl. Personally I think girls online are usually treated better than guys, but if sexism online is really a problem perhaps they should stop acting like they're so different and special.
Why is it a bad thing to have a girly nickname? Also a girls only tournament is only as bad as say a UK only tournament or a US only tournament, both are excluding players based on something they have no control over. Most girls who play games don't act differently or like they are special, they are treated like that by guys. Girls really aren't treated better online. To be treated as a normal gamer and not having guys trying to flirt with them and being creepy or offensive, they basically have to hide the fact that they are girls.
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On September 18 2011 07:29 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Idiot.... My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female. You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off. thats great. im glad you have fun with it, im glad they do. i like the fact you have a positive experience from this. but, i would like to point out, this is your personal experience. in mine, the community is actually really sexist. i belong to a video game club on campus where i cant believe some of the shit they say when female members arent around. this article has identified and contextualized a problem which exists and warrants exposure. you can hate my idea, you can think it an utter waste of time, but dont hate people
So women need special treatment, and the presence of a woman should mean EVERYBODY ELSE has to adjust their behaviour? sounds like preferential treatment based on gender.
Get out lol.
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EPT
