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On September 18 2011 07:39 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:38 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Idiot.... My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female. You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off. Let's face it: because of teamliquid and things like that, sc2 is probably one of the nicest, most awesome communities out there. I'm not really speaking against other gaming communities because I don't have much experience outside sc2, but don't assume that other gaming communities are as awesome. I'm not assuming things about any other community. I'm trying to discuss our community, since this is TL, and the article involved day9. It's a shame the white-knight phenomena exists, because i'm sure it's the only thing giving these "discussions" any legs in a general thread entitled "sexism in gaming culture"? 
You can bash the sc2 community, but if people try to defend it, it's not the right thread for it?
Fair.
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On September 18 2011 07:32 Redox wrote:
Among gamers and generally nerds on the internet you will not only find a lot of sexist, but also homophobic and racist stuff.
Its basically rooted in people taking advantage of internet anonymity. And it reflects the demographic (young white males) that nerds mainly consist of.
Gamers are probably among the least homophobic people around. If you actually ask a "nerd" whether he has anything against gay people chances are he'll say no. Just because he calls something gay on the internet doesnt mean that he's a homophobe. I bet the average person has more against gays than nerds.
People need to see the difference between the internet and "real life". Most people who say racist/sexist things wouldnt say it in real life, and probably dont mean half of what they say. People also need to stop being so overly sensitive to everything.
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On September 18 2011 07:39 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:25 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:20 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. ... So purposely misquoting someone for more viewers isn't crappy journalism? Give me a break. he didn't insult him. he used that quote out of context to get us to read the article, where he reccomended day9 but exposed latent beliefs we aren't aware of which can help us move forward as a community The problem is: It was no quote. End of discussion. There was no "misinterpretation of what he [day9] said". A quote is something what a person says - not what one thinks what a person meant. And making up a false statement and masking it as a quote is no "good journalism". Right of reply (sic?) is part of the law and exists for a reason.
we have different viewpoints, i believe everything is more relative and interpretative. depends on context. i believe the rules exist for the reasons behind them, and that if the reasons are sated, rules are not always required.
the law depends on global standards and rules which reflect moral generalizations of the time, it is not always correct and fair but is definitely best system thus far. so while it is a law, that doesnt mean i think its necessarily an absolute, and i think thats where we disagree
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:33 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:30 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:29 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Idiot.... My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female. You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off. thats great. im glad you have fun with it, im glad they do. i like the fact you have a positive experience from this. but, i would like to point out, this is your personal experience. in mine, the community is actually really sexist. i belong to a video game club on campus where i cant believe some of the shit they say when female members arent around. this article has identified and contextualized a problem which exists and warrants exposure. you can hate my idea, you can think it an utter waste of time, but dont hate people So women need special treatment, and the presence of a woman should mean EVERYBODY ELSE has to adjust their behaviour? sounds like preferential treatment based on gender. Get out lol. He didn't say anything of the sort. He's saying people should be less sexist in general, not put on a non-sexist face when girls are around. But he's misrepresenting the group he's talking about. These people aren't being sexist. I'm sorry, but you're being allowed waaay too much wiggle room in these discussions, people have even stopped arguing with you about whether or not they are sexist now, whilst trying to deal with the other nonsense people keep bringing up to bash normal people. How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be. Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it.
The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group.
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On September 18 2011 07:36 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:30 maahes`ra wrote:
Why is it sexist to unilaterally treat women with the same severity all other internet inhabitants get to endure but not sexist (defining sexist as "attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles") to coddle them? Are you actually implying that women on the internet get treated the same as men?
Is that supposed to paint me as some kind of insensitive brute? My question remains valid, since there seems to be some definition confusion at work here.
It seems that entering communities formed around competition and expecting to never get offended or face offensive content is a completely silly intention, especially when given the chance we insult one another over things we had as little control over as women do of their gender (circumcision, race, nationality, etc).
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On September 18 2011 07:38 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:34 Magic_Mike wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Sooooo. He lied. And on purpose too. And you think this is GOOD journalism. I'd hate to see what you think bad journalism looks like. His point could have been made (and I read the article and disagree with his point) without telling lies. It shows a lack of character and personally it puts a sour taste in my mouth any time they try to make a point, whether it is good or not. I'll always be wondering if the "facts" they use to prove their point or represent their argument are not just another case of "good" journalism. bad journalism is libelous, unethical, misleading, and damaging to community. this is none of that.
Let's take a look. Is it unethical to lie? Because that's exactly what he does in this article. Saying that someone said something when they didn't is clearly lying. Hence, it's unethical.
Is it misleading? Well yes, since it doesn't portray the truth it leads to a fake illusion.
Is is libelous or damaging to community? Hell yes. This article is causing and uproar already because the guy is HURTING one of the most prominent figures of the Professional scene.
How can you not call it bad journalism when it is everything you said bad journalism is? Way to contradict yourself.
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On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:39 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:38 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Idiot.... My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female. You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off. Let's face it: because of teamliquid and things like that, sc2 is probably one of the nicest, most awesome communities out there. I'm not really speaking against other gaming communities because I don't have much experience outside sc2, but don't assume that other gaming communities are as awesome. I'm not assuming things about any other community. I'm trying to discuss our community, since this is TL, and the article involved day9. It's a shame the white-knight phenomena exists, because i'm sure it's the only thing giving these "discussions" any legs in a general thread entitled "sexism in gaming culture"? You can bash the sc2 community, but if people try to defend it, it's not the right thread for it? Fair.
i acknowledged your viewpoint and dont disagree...thought was humorous the context you're arguing for this specific community.
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On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:33 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:30 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:29 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:
[quote]
Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Idiot.... My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female. You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off. thats great. im glad you have fun with it, im glad they do. i like the fact you have a positive experience from this. but, i would like to point out, this is your personal experience. in mine, the community is actually really sexist. i belong to a video game club on campus where i cant believe some of the shit they say when female members arent around. this article has identified and contextualized a problem which exists and warrants exposure. you can hate my idea, you can think it an utter waste of time, but dont hate people So women need special treatment, and the presence of a woman should mean EVERYBODY ELSE has to adjust their behaviour? sounds like preferential treatment based on gender. Get out lol. He didn't say anything of the sort. He's saying people should be less sexist in general, not put on a non-sexist face when girls are around. But he's misrepresenting the group he's talking about. These people aren't being sexist. I'm sorry, but you're being allowed waaay too much wiggle room in these discussions, people have even stopped arguing with you about whether or not they are sexist now, whilst trying to deal with the other nonsense people keep bringing up to bash normal people. How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be. Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group.
Men can't win this discussion.
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On September 18 2011 07:38 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:34 Magic_Mike wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Sooooo. He lied. And on purpose too. And you think this is GOOD journalism. I'd hate to see what you think bad journalism looks like. His point could have been made (and I read the article and disagree with his point) without telling lies. It shows a lack of character and personally it puts a sour taste in my mouth any time they try to make a point, whether it is good or not. I'll always be wondering if the "facts" they use to prove their point or represent their argument are not just another case of "good" journalism. bad journalism is libelous, unethical, misleading, and damaging to community. this is none of that. this is a different point of view stressing us to examine our own beliefs, see if they're flawed or not and improve the community. i was angry when i saw that quote too, but after i read the rest of it its obvious what his appeal was. nothing about this is "bad" journalism, and while i dont agree with the means in all cases in this specific one it justified and necessary this author overtly put everything out there
I can't believe you're actually trying to defend a misquote done purposefully... like I am just mind boggled right now. That is like journalism no no #1.
Maybe I should release an article that creates a quote of your out of thin air that makes you look bad... but hey.. as long as it doesn't damage the community right?
PS. Purposefully misquoting is unethical....which is one of the words you use to describe bad journalism... I'm starting to think I'm just feeding a troll now.
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On September 18 2011 07:43 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:39 Zocat wrote:On September 18 2011 07:25 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:20 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. ... So purposely misquoting someone for more viewers isn't crappy journalism? Give me a break. he didn't insult him. he used that quote out of context to get us to read the article, where he reccomended day9 but exposed latent beliefs we aren't aware of which can help us move forward as a community The problem is: It was no quote. End of discussion. There was no "misinterpretation of what he [day9] said". A quote is something what a person says - not what one thinks what a person meant. And making up a false statement and masking it as a quote is no "good journalism". Right of reply (sic?) is part of the law and exists for a reason. Oh yeah. From your viewpoint. You're totally right. I was wrong and want to apologize to everyone in this thread for derailing it
No problem m8. It's good that you see your errors & accept your wrongdoings! No harm done!
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On September 18 2011 07:32 Redox wrote:
Among gamers and generally nerds on the internet you will not only find a lot of sexist, but also homophobic and racist stuff.
Its basically rooted in people taking advantage of internet anonymity. And it reflects the demographic (young white males) that nerds mainly consist of.
Every demographic has slurs you can use against it. If you are legitimately prejudiced against some group, using PC words won't actually hide or change the fact that you don't like them. But if you know everyone is the same (like netizens who aren't afraid of simple words), then it doesn't matter what word you use. In fact, demystifying language is actually the right way to excise the malice from young people before they grow into bigots. But malicious people, it doesn't matter what word they use. If there were a white supremacist state in which only politically correct terms were legal, the result wouldn't be that every white supremacist became a multicultural pushover. The result would be that they would just stuff all their vitriol into those same PC terms.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 18 2011 07:45 Giant Squid Thing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:33 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:30 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:29 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
[quote]
no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him.
please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Idiot.... My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female. You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off. thats great. im glad you have fun with it, im glad they do. i like the fact you have a positive experience from this. but, i would like to point out, this is your personal experience. in mine, the community is actually really sexist. i belong to a video game club on campus where i cant believe some of the shit they say when female members arent around. this article has identified and contextualized a problem which exists and warrants exposure. you can hate my idea, you can think it an utter waste of time, but dont hate people So women need special treatment, and the presence of a woman should mean EVERYBODY ELSE has to adjust their behaviour? sounds like preferential treatment based on gender. Get out lol. He didn't say anything of the sort. He's saying people should be less sexist in general, not put on a non-sexist face when girls are around. But he's misrepresenting the group he's talking about. These people aren't being sexist. I'm sorry, but you're being allowed waaay too much wiggle room in these discussions, people have even stopped arguing with you about whether or not they are sexist now, whilst trying to deal with the other nonsense people keep bringing up to bash normal people. How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be. Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group. Men can't win this discussion.
Yes they could, very easily in fact. Stop saying horrible, sexist things would probably be the easiest way of going about it.
edit: also that is a terrible way to try and win an argument, please stop it.
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Canada11607 Posts
Hm well, obviously the Day9 thing is a wash. But if you read beyond that, I think it is rather interesting. Especially how Finkel defenders tried to counter the shallow comment with equally shallow comments. She should date him because he has a lot of money???
One the weird things with a lot of these discussions is how often males tell females what they should do or not do, feel or not feel. We tell them- we don't want you to play games between yourselves, we don't want you to make a thread to find each other on TL, we don't want to know you're a girl, we want you to be invisible. We will not accommodate so you should suck it up and get used to how we speak, you shouldn't feel that way, just turn off your microphone, get used to it because we're not going to change.
At some point Steve Hughes is probably be going to be linked, but honestly how often in a normal conversation do we go on and on about how a girl should behave or feel?
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On September 18 2011 07:35 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:18 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:08 Smackzilla wrote:On September 18 2011 00:26 Cel.erity wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that this is a very long article which has very little to do with Day9, and a lot to do with our gaming culture in general, and you can't invalidate the entire piece of work just based on one example of sloppy journalism. Guaranteed that if one person e-mailed the editor of SCG, that quote would get removed and Geordie would apologize for it, so stop making such a fuss. Sorry, accident or not, it is a big deal. The writer took a well-respected person from the e-sports community and held them up as an example of sexism in gaming by attributing a quote to Day9 that he never actually said. Its rotten "journalism" and the writer should apologize. no it didn't. it didn't denigrate him. it actually reccomended him. it took a sentiment of his paraphrased out of context to draw in more viewers. this isn't rotten journalism, this is a man using the highest skills of his craft to spread a message he believes worthwhile. i agree with him. please, read it again (or more likely the first time), and imagine you have a gf who fights for/with you over sc. imagine you were showing your mom this community in the raw. Idiot.... My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female. You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off. Let's face it: because of teamliquid and things like that, sc2 is probably one of the nicest, most awesome communities out there. I'm not really speaking against other gaming communities because I don't have much experience outside sc2, but don't assume that other gaming communities are as awesome. But yes, THIS community is great.
In regards to sexism, I think SC2 is about the same as any other community. One thing the article fails to address is that, while sexism is surely rampant in gaming, most of it is beneficial to women. I have not yet been in a gaming community where women weren't placed on pedestals and given privileges they have not earned; likewise, in every community there are a lot of guys who are hateful towards women. However, that hate is usually caused by the unfair attention that women receive in the community.
Being female is polarizing. It's evident in every TL thread relating to women; half of the thread is blind fanboyism/white knighting while the other half is sexist insults and "is she hot?". A lot of women are turned off by this, but frankly, a lot of women use it to their advantage to get attention and possibly even advance their careers. The article isn't wrong, but it's also not balanced because it doesn't discuss both sides.
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I agree that girl gamers gets treated a bit differently. It can sometimes be good and sometimes be bad. It's good that people tend to not be as rude to you, and you're "special" in some ways. But at the same time, when you're just trying to fit in and do what all the other guys are doing, there could be a barrier sometimes.
I know some girls take advantage of being a girl and have very girly names or advertise themselves, I hate it when they do that cuz that means they have very little appreciation of the game. They don't want to get better, they just want special attention from guys, which is lame.
I know that most guys mean well, but I do cringe a bit everytime people single me out to be a girl. I just wish that people can accept me on a normal level, not on a novelty level cuz I really just want to get better, make some friends to practice with, learn how to macro/micro, timings and all that with friends giving me feedback. And watch stuff like the GSL with friends. There's benefits to being "special" but there's also pitfalls as well.
But what day 9 said is fine. Guys swear all the time and things just roll off the tongue sometimes. though I'm slightly offended (I can't really help it), it doesn't take away from his awesomeness overall. I said many offending things when I wasn't thinking. Though I have to point out that since there's so little girls in the gaming community, the guys do tend to make jokes that I'm not 100% comfortable with, which is fine most of the time because they're lighthearted in nature (I'm pretty sure they're not serious), but hearing it over and over again does make someone feel sorta bad, even when I know they don't mean it, and it sometimes can stop me from having a good time.
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On September 18 2011 07:46 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:45 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:33 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:30 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:29 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:25 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
[quote]
Idiot....
My wife plays sc2, and my mother plays (gold league lol) Both have not had a single negative experience out of the sc2 community, or at least no single negative experience because they are female.
You're just trying to create issues that don't exist. This community is great, the only people who seem to bash it are the nobodies who don't care to put in any effort to get noticed, rather rely on sensationalising titles, being purposefully stupid, or taking their clothes off. thats great. im glad you have fun with it, im glad they do. i like the fact you have a positive experience from this. but, i would like to point out, this is your personal experience. in mine, the community is actually really sexist. i belong to a video game club on campus where i cant believe some of the shit they say when female members arent around. this article has identified and contextualized a problem which exists and warrants exposure. you can hate my idea, you can think it an utter waste of time, but dont hate people So women need special treatment, and the presence of a woman should mean EVERYBODY ELSE has to adjust their behaviour? sounds like preferential treatment based on gender. Get out lol. He didn't say anything of the sort. He's saying people should be less sexist in general, not put on a non-sexist face when girls are around. But he's misrepresenting the group he's talking about. These people aren't being sexist. I'm sorry, but you're being allowed waaay too much wiggle room in these discussions, people have even stopped arguing with you about whether or not they are sexist now, whilst trying to deal with the other nonsense people keep bringing up to bash normal people. How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be. Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group. Men can't win this discussion. Yes they could, very easily in fact. Stop saying horrible, sexist things would probably be the easiest way of going about it.
Minority != community
Minority != gender
A man says something bad, he is bad
NOT
A man says something bad, Men are bad.
It's like this when a woman gets cheated on "oh man all men are scum and cheaters" you hear it all the time.. this is the same thing, projecting.
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On September 18 2011 07:36 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:32 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:24 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:17 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:11 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his. The problem is, that many twists can turn anything into anything. Misquoting a paraphrased sentiment is roughly the equivalent of combining random words into a completely incoherent sentence. Sentiment: I believe the holocaust was a grave error in judgement by the Nazis. They should have assumed genocide would piss off a lot of people.
Paraphrased sentiment: Nazis were stupid.
Misquoted paraphrased sentiment: Nazis weren't stupid. You see how quickly that went awry, right? we have diff definitions, misquote = taken out of context, paraphrased sentiment = day9 mad at this girl for poking fun at him but knew what it was and related in charming little story agreed on your analysis of that. but i agree with what this article says, and because of that i believe that in this specific case (this article i agree with) in this specific context (driving in readers from all major gaming areas on the internet--a realm of immense volume where the only way to get headlines is to at least appear sensational) is completely justifiable and ethical Misquote noun /misˈkwōt/ A passage or remark quoted inaccurately inaccurate adjective /ɪnˈæ.kjʊ.ɹət/Not accurate; incorrect Incorrect adjective /ˌɪnkəˈɹɛkt/- Not correct; erroneous or wrong.
- Faulty or defective.
- Inappropriate or improper.
It isn't a misquote if it is taken out of context. It's a quote taken out of context. This, however, had a completely incorrect quote, to which even the sentiment was completely wrong. im not contesting your accuracy or logic, i was defining my definitions. just want to communicate how i feel about this because on this issue i believe its a voice not often heard and any civil debate either strengthens existing beliefs or gets rid of flawed ones
To do list:
Buy a dictionary.
Get an education.
Language exists for a reason.
You simply can't redefine words to suit your own intentions. I'm seriously glad that complete and total incorrectness is not a voice which is often heard. "misquote" has a set definition. The word is accounted for. You can pick one of the other 1,000,000 words, or you can invent your own, but you don't get to redefine already existing ones.
That said, the quote was incorrect, and the incorrect portion completely changed the meaning of the quote.
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On September 18 2011 07:48 Flamelta wrote:
I agree that girl gamers gets treated a bit differently. It can sometimes be good and sometimes be bad. It's good that people tend to not be as rude to you, and you're "special" in some ways. But at the same time, when you're just trying to fit in and do what all the other guys are doing, there could be a barrier sometimes.
I know some girls take advantage of being a girl and have very girly names or advertise themselves, I hate it when they do that cuz that means they have very little appreciation of the game. They don't want to get better, they just want special attention from guys, which is lame.
I know that most guys mean well, but I do cringe a bit everytime people single me out to be a girl. I just wish that people can accept me on a normal level, not on a novelty level cuz I really just want to get better, make some friends to practice with, learn how to macro/micro, timings and all that with friends giving me feedback. And watch stuff like the GSL with friends. There's benefits to being "special" but there's also pitfalls as well.
But what day 9 said is fine. Guys swear all the time and things just roll off the tongue sometimes. though I'm slightly offended (I can't really help it), it doesn't take away from his awesomeness overall. I said many offending things when I wasn't thinking. Though I have to point out that since there's so little girls in the gaming community, the guys do tend to make jokes that I'm not 100% comfortable with, which is fine most of the time because they're lighthearted in nature (I'm pretty sure they're not serious), but hearing it over and over again does make someone feel sorta bad, even when I know they don't mean it, and it sometimes can stop me from having a good time.
day9 didn't say it.
It was a fabrication.
Please read the message at the top of every page of this thread from the moderators.
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On September 18 2011 07:50 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:36 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:32 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:24 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:17 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:11 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his. The problem is, that many twists can turn anything into anything. Misquoting a paraphrased sentiment is roughly the equivalent of combining random words into a completely incoherent sentence. Sentiment: I believe the holocaust was a grave error in judgement by the Nazis. They should have assumed genocide would piss off a lot of people.
Paraphrased sentiment: Nazis were stupid.
Misquoted paraphrased sentiment: Nazis weren't stupid. You see how quickly that went awry, right? we have diff definitions, misquote = taken out of context, paraphrased sentiment = day9 mad at this girl for poking fun at him but knew what it was and related in charming little story agreed on your analysis of that. but i agree with what this article says, and because of that i believe that in this specific case (this article i agree with) in this specific context (driving in readers from all major gaming areas on the internet--a realm of immense volume where the only way to get headlines is to at least appear sensational) is completely justifiable and ethical Misquote noun /misˈkwōt/ A passage or remark quoted inaccurately inaccurate adjective /ɪnˈæ.kjʊ.ɹət/Not accurate; incorrect Incorrect adjective /ˌɪnkəˈɹɛkt/- Not correct; erroneous or wrong.
- Faulty or defective.
- Inappropriate or improper.
It isn't a misquote if it is taken out of context. It's a quote taken out of context. This, however, had a completely incorrect quote, to which even the sentiment was completely wrong. im not contesting your accuracy or logic, i was defining my definitions. just want to communicate how i feel about this because on this issue i believe its a voice not often heard and any civil debate either strengthens existing beliefs or gets rid of flawed ones To do list: Buy a dictionary. Get an education. Language exists for a reason. You simply can't redefine words to suit your own intentions. I'm seriously glad that complete and total incorrectness is not a voice which is often heard. "misquote" has a set definition. The word is accounted for. You can pick one of the other 1,000,000 words, or you can invent your own, but you don't get to redefine already existing ones.
Why do you keep attacking him? He already said, and I quote:
"You're totally right. I was wrong and want to apologize to everyone in this thread for derailing it"
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Wow. I actually wanted to post in this thread, maybe even something intelligent. It would have involved discussion about the nature of opinion and other things like that...but wow. I am not sexist, my friends are not sexist, and anyone who is sexist can't really blame games for that, some people need to grow out of this phase of ignorance towards our culture as soon as possible.
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EPT
