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On September 18 2011 08:00 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:58 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:55 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:49 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:46 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:45 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
[quote]
But he's misrepresenting the group he's talking about. These people aren't being sexist.
I'm sorry, but you're being allowed waaay too much wiggle room in these discussions, people have even stopped arguing with you about whether or not they are sexist now, whilst trying to deal with the other nonsense people keep bringing up to bash normal people. How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be. Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group. Men can't win this discussion. Yes they could, very easily in fact. Stop saying horrible, sexist things would probably be the easiest way of going about it. Minority != community Minority != gender A man says something bad, he is bad NOT A man says something bad, Men are bad. It's like this when a woman gets cheated on "oh man all men are scum and cheaters" you hear it all the time.. this is the same thing, projecting. When exactly did I say men as a whole are bad (apart from the last quote because you decided to pet all men into one group). My point is that there are a large section of gamers who are very sexist in an already very male dominated community and that this is a problem because it prevents outsiders coming in and growing the community. I'd hope you agree that growing the community is a good thing. As far as gender not being a minority it isn't numerically but as far as power, influence rights it is. Also the whole cheating thing isn't a great comparison because people tend to say stupid shit they don't actually believe in situations like that. Define large group. Statistically I think it's a very small subset of people who you could genuinely call sexist in this community. Hint: Saying bitch isn't sexist, calling a girl hot isn't sexist. Calling a girl hot can be sexist, it really depends on the context. "Can she play SC2?" "Who cares, she's hot!" It's actually relatively sexist to call a girl hot behind her back in any context, because it objectifies the girl. It's just not -as- serious an infraction as most other things we consider sexist.
So you can't discuss a females attributes because it objectifies her?
But if i call day9 sexy it's totally different right? :S
I'm sorry i just put words into your mouth there and that is unfair, but I think it's also very unfair for you to leave your point the way you did.
humans value attractive appearance, lets not turn something natural into "the social issue of the sc2 community" 
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On September 18 2011 08:01 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:59 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:51 Zocat wrote:On September 18 2011 07:50 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:36 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:32 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:24 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:17 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:11 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his. The problem is, that many twists can turn anything into anything. Misquoting a paraphrased sentiment is roughly the equivalent of combining random words into a completely incoherent sentence. Sentiment: I believe the holocaust was a grave error in judgement by the Nazis. They should have assumed genocide would piss off a lot of people.
Paraphrased sentiment: Nazis were stupid.
Misquoted paraphrased sentiment: Nazis weren't stupid. You see how quickly that went awry, right? we have diff definitions, misquote = taken out of context, paraphrased sentiment = day9 mad at this girl for poking fun at him but knew what it was and related in charming little story agreed on your analysis of that. but i agree with what this article says, and because of that i believe that in this specific case (this article i agree with) in this specific context (driving in readers from all major gaming areas on the internet--a realm of immense volume where the only way to get headlines is to at least appear sensational) is completely justifiable and ethical Misquote noun /misˈkwōt/ A passage or remark quoted inaccurately inaccurate adjective /ɪnˈæ.kjʊ.ɹət/Not accurate; incorrect Incorrect adjective /ˌɪnkəˈɹɛkt/- Not correct; erroneous or wrong.
- Faulty or defective.
- Inappropriate or improper.
It isn't a misquote if it is taken out of context. It's a quote taken out of context. This, however, had a completely incorrect quote, to which even the sentiment was completely wrong. im not contesting your accuracy or logic, i was defining my definitions. just want to communicate how i feel about this because on this issue i believe its a voice not often heard and any civil debate either strengthens existing beliefs or gets rid of flawed ones To do list: Buy a dictionary. Get an education. Language exists for a reason. You simply can't redefine words to suit your own intentions. I'm seriously glad that complete and total incorrectness is not a voice which is often heard. "misquote" has a set definition. The word is accounted for. You can pick one of the other 1,000,000 words, or you can invent your own, but you don't get to redefine already existing ones. Why do you keep attacking him? He already said, and I quote: "You're totally right. I was wrong and want to apologize to everyone in this thread for derailing it" I wanted to believe you were right. Perhaps I'm blind, but I couldn't find that anywhere except in your quote tree. Either it was edited out, or it was edited in. But his whole argument, concerning the Day9 quote, is evolving about it being ok to alter statements / make up quotes. So I thought it's ok for all of us to make up the statement (and a quote) that he apologized and admitted his wrongdoings! I mean it serves our cause/argumentation, so according to him it's ok to do so! (so no you didnt actually miss it  - sorry if it wasnt clear enough)
Argh. I thought I was being a total ass for no reason.
Don't do that to me! Haha
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On September 18 2011 07:51 Giant Squid Thing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:48 Flamelta wrote:
I agree that girl gamers gets treated a bit differently. It can sometimes be good and sometimes be bad. It's good that people tend to not be as rude to you, and you're "special" in some ways. But at the same time, when you're just trying to fit in and do what all the other guys are doing, there could be a barrier sometimes.
I know some girls take advantage of being a girl and have very girly names or advertise themselves, I hate it when they do that cuz that means they have very little appreciation of the game. They don't want to get better, they just want special attention from guys, which is lame.
I know that most guys mean well, but I do cringe a bit everytime people single me out to be a girl. I just wish that people can accept me on a normal level, not on a novelty level cuz I really just want to get better, make some friends to practice with, learn how to macro/micro, timings and all that with friends giving me feedback. And watch stuff like the GSL with friends. There's benefits to being "special" but there's also pitfalls as well.
But what day 9 said is fine. Guys swear all the time and things just roll off the tongue sometimes. though I'm slightly offended (I can't really help it), it doesn't take away from his awesomeness overall. I said many offending things when I wasn't thinking. Though I have to point out that since there's so little girls in the gaming community, the guys do tend to make jokes that I'm not 100% comfortable with, which is fine most of the time because they're lighthearted in nature (I'm pretty sure they're not serious), but hearing it over and over again does make someone feel sorta bad, even when I know they don't mean it, and it sometimes can stop me from having a good time. day9 didn't say it. It was a fabrication. Please read the message at the top of every page of this thread from the moderators.
Oh all the better then =) I actually like day 9 a lot, glad to hear that.
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United States5162 Posts
On September 18 2011 08:02 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:58 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:55 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:49 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:46 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:45 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
[quote]
But he's misrepresenting the group he's talking about. These people aren't being sexist.
I'm sorry, but you're being allowed waaay too much wiggle room in these discussions, people have even stopped arguing with you about whether or not they are sexist now, whilst trying to deal with the other nonsense people keep bringing up to bash normal people. How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be. Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group. Men can't win this discussion. Yes they could, very easily in fact. Stop saying horrible, sexist things would probably be the easiest way of going about it. Minority != community Minority != gender A man says something bad, he is bad NOT A man says something bad, Men are bad. It's like this when a woman gets cheated on "oh man all men are scum and cheaters" you hear it all the time.. this is the same thing, projecting. When exactly did I say men as a whole are bad (apart from the last quote because you decided to pet all men into one group). My point is that there are a large section of gamers who are very sexist in an already very male dominated community and that this is a problem because it prevents outsiders coming in and growing the community. I'd hope you agree that growing the community is a good thing. As far as gender not being a minority it isn't numerically but as far as power, influence rights it is. Also the whole cheating thing isn't a great comparison because people tend to say stupid shit they don't actually believe in situations like that. Define large group. Statistically I think it's a very small subset of people who you could genuinely call sexist in this community. Hint: Saying bitch isn't sexist, calling a girl hot isn't sexist. It may be small in numbers but it's a very noisy group who tends to be the first thing people see of the community. Bitch itself isn't sexist but it can be used in a sexist way. Calling someone hot isn't sexist, calling a girl, who you have never met or seen, hot just because she is a girl is sexist and really creepy.
WTF...calling someone hot is based on appearance. You don't need to meet or know someone to think they're hot. Millions of men think Megan Fox is hot and have never met her, and you consider them sexist because of that?
edit: I guess I misread you post cuz when I read 'seen' I saw 'know' for some reason. Anyways, do you really see a lot of guys call a girl hot without seeing her? Or are you referring to the obligatory 'is she hot?' post whenever a thread talks about a girl?
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 18 2011 08:01 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:59 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:51 Zocat wrote:On September 18 2011 07:50 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:36 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:32 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:24 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:17 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:11 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his. The problem is, that many twists can turn anything into anything. Misquoting a paraphrased sentiment is roughly the equivalent of combining random words into a completely incoherent sentence. Sentiment: I believe the holocaust was a grave error in judgement by the Nazis. They should have assumed genocide would piss off a lot of people.
Paraphrased sentiment: Nazis were stupid.
Misquoted paraphrased sentiment: Nazis weren't stupid. You see how quickly that went awry, right? we have diff definitions, misquote = taken out of context, paraphrased sentiment = day9 mad at this girl for poking fun at him but knew what it was and related in charming little story agreed on your analysis of that. but i agree with what this article says, and because of that i believe that in this specific case (this article i agree with) in this specific context (driving in readers from all major gaming areas on the internet--a realm of immense volume where the only way to get headlines is to at least appear sensational) is completely justifiable and ethical Misquote noun /misˈkwōt/ A passage or remark quoted inaccurately inaccurate adjective /ɪnˈæ.kjʊ.ɹət/Not accurate; incorrect Incorrect adjective /ˌɪnkəˈɹɛkt/- Not correct; erroneous or wrong.
- Faulty or defective.
- Inappropriate or improper.
It isn't a misquote if it is taken out of context. It's a quote taken out of context. This, however, had a completely incorrect quote, to which even the sentiment was completely wrong. im not contesting your accuracy or logic, i was defining my definitions. just want to communicate how i feel about this because on this issue i believe its a voice not often heard and any civil debate either strengthens existing beliefs or gets rid of flawed ones To do list: Buy a dictionary. Get an education. Language exists for a reason. You simply can't redefine words to suit your own intentions. I'm seriously glad that complete and total incorrectness is not a voice which is often heard. "misquote" has a set definition. The word is accounted for. You can pick one of the other 1,000,000 words, or you can invent your own, but you don't get to redefine already existing ones. Why do you keep attacking him? He already said, and I quote: "You're totally right. I was wrong and want to apologize to everyone in this thread for derailing it" I wanted to believe you were right. Perhaps I'm blind, but I couldn't find that anywhere except in your quote tree. Either it was edited out, or it was edited in. But his whole argument, concerning the Day9 quote, is evolving about it being ok to alter statements / make up quotes. So I thought it's ok for all of us to make up the statement (and a quote) that he apologized and admitted his wrongdoings! I mean it serves our cause/argumentation, so according to him it's ok to do so! (so no you didnt actually miss it;))
The thing is the writer didn't base his article on the Day[9] thing. The part of the article about Day[9] was entirely about how it was excellent that he was so proud of being gamer.
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On September 18 2011 08:03 KurtistheTurtle wrote:I really get the feeling everybody here is, for lack of a better term, "butthurt." I felt it too, but got over it when I realized he didn't actually call day9 sexist. he implied for sensationalist traffic on the internet. This place doesn't have defined standards yet. Then he actually sends you back to the source and reccomends everything day9 stands for, exists, and puts it in context: this is how we came to be, how we are, this is what i think about it, and this is why its important not to think about it. i want my bias up front: this article made me realize that i didnt have correct views between my gf's feelings and where sc2 fit into my life. i was being unfair to her, and realizing that, want to change everything to be better for everybody. i believe this article is--in relation to the issue--correct, accurate, and completely beneficial. That one heading doesn't invalidate the entire article. It is vitally important to recognize and think about opposing viewpoints. I think this article is incredibly accurate and pertinent, and that actually thinking about it is beneficial to the community at large. Even if you don't agree with it, and even if you think its stupid. i was on skype w a friend: Show nested quote +[4:35:52 PM] Elliot Allen: wow
[4:35:57 PM] friend: part 6 loses all credibility
[4:36:15 PM] me: because he bashes day9?
[4:36:23 PM] friend: yeah
[reading]
[4:39:09 PM] friend: nevermind
[4:39:20 PM] friend: part is 6 is the most relevant part of this whole entire tinhg i agree
No.
The 'journalist' Fabricated a fact.
That's why people are annoyed. This is very very obvious.
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On September 18 2011 08:02 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:58 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:55 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:49 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:46 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:45 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:35 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
[quote]
But he's misrepresenting the group he's talking about. These people aren't being sexist.
I'm sorry, but you're being allowed waaay too much wiggle room in these discussions, people have even stopped arguing with you about whether or not they are sexist now, whilst trying to deal with the other nonsense people keep bringing up to bash normal people. How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be. Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group. Men can't win this discussion. Yes they could, very easily in fact. Stop saying horrible, sexist things would probably be the easiest way of going about it. Minority != community Minority != gender A man says something bad, he is bad NOT A man says something bad, Men are bad. It's like this when a woman gets cheated on "oh man all men are scum and cheaters" you hear it all the time.. this is the same thing, projecting. When exactly did I say men as a whole are bad (apart from the last quote because you decided to pet all men into one group). My point is that there are a large section of gamers who are very sexist in an already very male dominated community and that this is a problem because it prevents outsiders coming in and growing the community. I'd hope you agree that growing the community is a good thing. As far as gender not being a minority it isn't numerically but as far as power, influence rights it is. Also the whole cheating thing isn't a great comparison because people tend to say stupid shit they don't actually believe in situations like that. Define large group. Statistically I think it's a very small subset of people who you could genuinely call sexist in this community. Hint: Saying bitch isn't sexist, calling a girl hot isn't sexist. It may be small in numbers but it's a very noisy group who tends to be the first thing people see of the community. Bitch itself isn't sexist but it can be used in a sexist way. Calling someone hot isn't sexist, calling a girl, who you have never met or seen, hot just because she is a girl is sexist and really creepy.
I don't understand your logic? So because I think that the VAST majority of all women are hot, and I like to express my opinion about that I'm creepy? Do you want me to lie to every single guy I meet online and tell him he's hot, although I find the male body largely unattractive?
Clarification: I don' actually write to girls in games as I prefer to interact with the in the real world, but my point still stands. Not everything has to be seen in a sexist and crude way.
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On September 18 2011 07:12 Giant Squid Thing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 06:56 lorkac wrote:
"Manly" is a termed used to define someone as being tough, strong, possibly bullheaded and strong willed.
"Girly" is a term we use to define someone as weak, shy and submissive.
When a girl is called "manly" it is usually because she is seen as either ugly or strong willed or even (in the case of the Olympics and Tennis (the Williams sisters)) because the woman is winning in a physical event far and above her peers.
Esports has this problem. Esports attacks female players such as Eve harassing her constantly for trying to get into Esports. When the Ironlady tournament was posted here on TL, it was also attacked by males.
The videogame "nerd" culture is a very misogynistic subgroup of society mostly because it is a very male oriented subgroup. Women are only understood as "part" of the group so long as they either play a part where they are objectified (Anna Prosser, lindsay sporrer) or if they attempt to be more masculine (such as the Ironlady tournament being attacked simply because i was female only).
This is not limited to ESports. Women are only really accepted into jock culture so long as they do "masculine" things such as enjoy football in an aggressive and competitive way (as opposed to simply talking about how much they think ______ player is cute/sexy).
In essence, so long as the female is objectified, they are not allowed to be female or feminine. This is not done directly to their face, this is done indirectly as females observe males throw insults at other males wherein the insults are normally a male calling the other male a female of some type (pussy, bitch, cunt) or calling the person who is dominating a sexually dominant figure (fucker, cock, "you fucked me over," "I got fucked over," etc...)
It's just the way it is in first world countries. people dislike(d) eve and the ironlady tournament for singling out females and calling them professionals when they are competing a level nothing like real professionals. Nothing to do with gender, stop creating issues. We dont want your drama.
When a tournament singles out nationality, league, skill level, invite/open only, etc... no one complains. When the tournament structure is singled out for any other group it is okay--unless the group is female. Somehow, that gets a lot of flack with people asking the tournament to be shut down.
This is not "my drama" since I'm not the one posting on the threads asking for female tournaments to be shut down. Just pointing out that the community is very misogynistic. The praise and demean women for being women instead of treating them exactly the same. They are singled out, talked about as sexy, beautiful, "not as good at the game," put on a pedestal, etc... They listen to males belittle other males by being described as female. "Bitch, cunt" or are being belittled through rape imagery. "Fucked over" "fuck you up" "got fucked up" etc.... Women hear these things, they read these things. Normally men say it behind closed doors but when the internet hides your sex, they get to hear it fully and are in essence forced to hide their sex while online. Why would they feel comfortable being known as a female when being called female is an offensive thing in the gaming culture.
It's something prevalent in first world countries that are predominantly white. Just as an example, Slayers_Eve shows up and is in diamond league, she's attacked and told she shouldn't be called a pro gamer. Yellow shows up and is in gold league, the entire community becomes supportive and telling him to practice harder, to be diligent. Why? Because people expect men to be able to reach masters (and they belittle anyone who can't as being bad at this game, telling them that they are damn near retarded) and people don't expect players like Slayers_Eve to be able to do the same thing.
Male dominated scenes are almost always sexist establishments. The Esport scene is no different.
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On September 18 2011 08:06 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:12 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 06:56 lorkac wrote:
"Manly" is a termed used to define someone as being tough, strong, possibly bullheaded and strong willed.
"Girly" is a term we use to define someone as weak, shy and submissive.
When a girl is called "manly" it is usually because she is seen as either ugly or strong willed or even (in the case of the Olympics and Tennis (the Williams sisters)) because the woman is winning in a physical event far and above her peers.
Esports has this problem. Esports attacks female players such as Eve harassing her constantly for trying to get into Esports. When the Ironlady tournament was posted here on TL, it was also attacked by males.
The videogame "nerd" culture is a very misogynistic subgroup of society mostly because it is a very male oriented subgroup. Women are only understood as "part" of the group so long as they either play a part where they are objectified (Anna Prosser, lindsay sporrer) or if they attempt to be more masculine (such as the Ironlady tournament being attacked simply because i was female only).
This is not limited to ESports. Women are only really accepted into jock culture so long as they do "masculine" things such as enjoy football in an aggressive and competitive way (as opposed to simply talking about how much they think ______ player is cute/sexy).
In essence, so long as the female is objectified, they are not allowed to be female or feminine. This is not done directly to their face, this is done indirectly as females observe males throw insults at other males wherein the insults are normally a male calling the other male a female of some type (pussy, bitch, cunt) or calling the person who is dominating a sexually dominant figure (fucker, cock, "you fucked me over," "I got fucked over," etc...)
It's just the way it is in first world countries. people dislike(d) eve and the ironlady tournament for singling out females and calling them professionals when they are competing a level nothing like real professionals. Nothing to do with gender, stop creating issues. We dont want your drama. When a tournament singles out nationality, league, skill level, invite/open only, etc... no one complains. When the tournament structure is singled out for any other group it is okay--unless the group is female. Somehow, that gets a lot of flack with people asking the tournament to be shut down. This is not "my drama" since I'm not the one posting on the threads asking for female tournaments to be shut down. Just pointing out that the community is very misogynistic. The praise and demean women for being women instead of treating them exactly the same. They are singled out, talked about as sexy, beautiful, "not as good at the game," put on a pedestal, etc... They listen to males belittle other males by being described as female. "Bitch, cunt" or are being belittled through rape imagery. "Fucked over" "fuck you up" "got fucked up" etc.... Women hear these things, they read these things. Normally men say it behind closed doors but when the internet hides your sex, they get to hear it fully and are in essence forced to hide their sex while online. Why would they feel comfortable being known as a female when being called female is an offensive thing in the gaming culture. It's something prevalent in first world countries that are predominantly white. Just as an example, Slayers_Eve shows up and is in diamond league, she's attacked and told she shouldn't be called a pro gamer. Yellow shows up and is in gold league, the entire community becomes supportive and telling him to practice harder, to be diligent. Why? Because people expect men to be able to reach masters (and they belittle anyone who can't as being bad at this game, telling them that they are damn near retarded) and people don't expect players like Slayers_Eve to be able to do the same thing. Male dominated scenes are almost always sexist establishments. The Esport scene is no different.
Swedish only tournaments aren't full of swedish players who are trying to be recognised above their ability for being swedish.
Yellow was a very very prominent player with time proven performance.
Eve was nobody (and remains so for now). Are you really trying to use that example as a case for sexism?
If so, you're deliberately being naive, for sure.
In modern usage (i.e post 60's) "fucked up" refers to violence. Not to rape, Fuck really does not have ties to sex unless used in that context. It's used interchangeable with many other words.
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On September 18 2011 08:06 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:12 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 06:56 lorkac wrote:
"Manly" is a termed used to define someone as being tough, strong, possibly bullheaded and strong willed.
"Girly" is a term we use to define someone as weak, shy and submissive.
When a girl is called "manly" it is usually because she is seen as either ugly or strong willed or even (in the case of the Olympics and Tennis (the Williams sisters)) because the woman is winning in a physical event far and above her peers.
Esports has this problem. Esports attacks female players such as Eve harassing her constantly for trying to get into Esports. When the Ironlady tournament was posted here on TL, it was also attacked by males.
The videogame "nerd" culture is a very misogynistic subgroup of society mostly because it is a very male oriented subgroup. Women are only understood as "part" of the group so long as they either play a part where they are objectified (Anna Prosser, lindsay sporrer) or if they attempt to be more masculine (such as the Ironlady tournament being attacked simply because i was female only).
This is not limited to ESports. Women are only really accepted into jock culture so long as they do "masculine" things such as enjoy football in an aggressive and competitive way (as opposed to simply talking about how much they think ______ player is cute/sexy).
In essence, so long as the female is objectified, they are not allowed to be female or feminine. This is not done directly to their face, this is done indirectly as females observe males throw insults at other males wherein the insults are normally a male calling the other male a female of some type (pussy, bitch, cunt) or calling the person who is dominating a sexually dominant figure (fucker, cock, "you fucked me over," "I got fucked over," etc...)
It's just the way it is in first world countries. people dislike(d) eve and the ironlady tournament for singling out females and calling them professionals when they are competing a level nothing like real professionals. Nothing to do with gender, stop creating issues. We dont want your drama. When a tournament singles out nationality, league, skill level, invite/open only, etc... no one complains. When the tournament structure is singled out for any other group it is okay--unless the group is female. Somehow, that gets a lot of flack with people asking the tournament to be shut down. This is not "my drama" since I'm not the one posting on the threads asking for female tournaments to be shut down. Just pointing out that the community is very misogynistic. The praise and demean women for being women instead of treating them exactly the same. They are singled out, talked about as sexy, beautiful, "not as good at the game," put on a pedestal, etc... They listen to males belittle other males by being described as female. "Bitch, cunt" or are being belittled through rape imagery. "Fucked over" "fuck you up" "got fucked up" etc.... Women hear these things, they read these things. Normally men say it behind closed doors but when the internet hides your sex, they get to hear it fully and are in essence forced to hide their sex while online. Why would they feel comfortable being known as a female when being called female is an offensive thing in the gaming culture. It's something prevalent in first world countries that are predominantly white. Just as an example, Slayers_Eve shows up and is in diamond league, she's attacked and told she shouldn't be called a pro gamer. Yellow shows up and is in gold league, the entire community becomes supportive and telling him to practice harder, to be diligent. Why? Because people expect men to be able to reach masters (and they belittle anyone who can't as being bad at this game, telling them that they are damn near retarded) and people don't expect players like Slayers_Eve to be able to do the same thing. Male dominated scenes are almost always sexist establishments. The Esport scene is no different.
I'm going to defend the community on that one. Yellow was a pro in Brood War and has proven himself, so people believe he can get to that level again. Eve has never been there, and hasn't proven herself, so that is why she was attacked and Yellow wasn't.
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On September 18 2011 08:04 Giant Squid Thing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 08:00 Cel.erity wrote:On September 18 2011 07:58 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:55 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:49 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:46 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:45 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be.
Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group. Men can't win this discussion. Yes they could, very easily in fact. Stop saying horrible, sexist things would probably be the easiest way of going about it. Minority != community Minority != gender A man says something bad, he is bad NOT A man says something bad, Men are bad. It's like this when a woman gets cheated on "oh man all men are scum and cheaters" you hear it all the time.. this is the same thing, projecting. When exactly did I say men as a whole are bad (apart from the last quote because you decided to pet all men into one group). My point is that there are a large section of gamers who are very sexist in an already very male dominated community and that this is a problem because it prevents outsiders coming in and growing the community. I'd hope you agree that growing the community is a good thing. As far as gender not being a minority it isn't numerically but as far as power, influence rights it is. Also the whole cheating thing isn't a great comparison because people tend to say stupid shit they don't actually believe in situations like that. Define large group. Statistically I think it's a very small subset of people who you could genuinely call sexist in this community. Hint: Saying bitch isn't sexist, calling a girl hot isn't sexist. Calling a girl hot can be sexist, it really depends on the context. "Can she play SC2?" "Who cares, she's hot!" It's actually relatively sexist to call a girl hot behind her back in any context, because it objectifies the girl. It's just not -as- serious an infraction as most other things we consider sexist. So you can't discuss a females attributes because it objectifies her? But if i call day9 sexy it's totally different right? :S I'm sorry i just put words into your mouth there and that is unfair, but I think it's also very unfair for you to leave your point the way you did. humans value attractive appearance, lets not turn something natural into "the social issue of the sc2 community"
A guy saying another guy is hot can't be seen as objectification, unless the first guy is homosexual. It's just endearing bro-talk. If a girl says Day9 is hot, sure, it's sexist. There exists a double standard in our society though between male and female sexism. I'm not some anti-sexism crusader or anything, quite the opposite, but call it what it is. Ogling a girl and discounting all of her attributes besides the physical is definitely sexism.
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I knew what most commenters were going to say about this post. "stop being so PC, get over it, etc". I find it really sad that such an intelligent community doesn't see that it isn't about what we think about the issue, it is about what our girlfriends, mums ,and sisters think.
I dont use these types of insults out of respect for the important women in my life, it does not matter whether I think using them is a big deal or not because I know they find them offensive. Why hurt the people you love when you don't need to?
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 18 2011 08:06 iLikeRain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 08:02 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:58 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:55 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:49 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:46 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:45 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be.
Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group. Men can't win this discussion. Yes they could, very easily in fact. Stop saying horrible, sexist things would probably be the easiest way of going about it. Minority != community Minority != gender A man says something bad, he is bad NOT A man says something bad, Men are bad. It's like this when a woman gets cheated on "oh man all men are scum and cheaters" you hear it all the time.. this is the same thing, projecting. When exactly did I say men as a whole are bad (apart from the last quote because you decided to pet all men into one group). My point is that there are a large section of gamers who are very sexist in an already very male dominated community and that this is a problem because it prevents outsiders coming in and growing the community. I'd hope you agree that growing the community is a good thing. As far as gender not being a minority it isn't numerically but as far as power, influence rights it is. Also the whole cheating thing isn't a great comparison because people tend to say stupid shit they don't actually believe in situations like that. Define large group. Statistically I think it's a very small subset of people who you could genuinely call sexist in this community. Hint: Saying bitch isn't sexist, calling a girl hot isn't sexist. It may be small in numbers but it's a very noisy group who tends to be the first thing people see of the community. Bitch itself isn't sexist but it can be used in a sexist way. Calling someone hot isn't sexist, calling a girl, who you have never met or seen, hot just because she is a girl is sexist and really creepy. I don't understand your logic? So because I think that the VAST majority of all women are hot, and I like to express my opinion about that I'm creepy? Do you want me to lie to every single guy I meet online and tell him he's hot, although I find the male body largely attractive? Clarification: I don' actually write to girls in games as I prefer to interact with the in the real world, but my point still stands. Not everything has to be seen in a sexist and crude way.
No what I'm saying is that saying directly to someone you've never met that you think they are hot is kind of creepy. It's kind of the same as walking up to someone in the street who is walking past and saying "wow, you're really hot".
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the fact is everybody is sexist, girls have expectations of guys, that they don't have of fellow women. live in the real world.
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On September 18 2011 08:04 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 08:01 Zocat wrote:On September 18 2011 07:59 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:51 Zocat wrote:On September 18 2011 07:50 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:36 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:32 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:24 KurtistheTurtle wrote:On September 18 2011 07:17 Chargelot wrote:On September 18 2011 07:11 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
1) This article didn't actually denigrate day9, although it misquoted a paraphrased sentiment of his. The problem is, that many twists can turn anything into anything. Misquoting a paraphrased sentiment is roughly the equivalent of combining random words into a completely incoherent sentence. Sentiment: I believe the holocaust was a grave error in judgement by the Nazis. They should have assumed genocide would piss off a lot of people.
Paraphrased sentiment: Nazis were stupid.
Misquoted paraphrased sentiment: Nazis weren't stupid. You see how quickly that went awry, right? we have diff definitions, misquote = taken out of context, paraphrased sentiment = day9 mad at this girl for poking fun at him but knew what it was and related in charming little story agreed on your analysis of that. but i agree with what this article says, and because of that i believe that in this specific case (this article i agree with) in this specific context (driving in readers from all major gaming areas on the internet--a realm of immense volume where the only way to get headlines is to at least appear sensational) is completely justifiable and ethical Misquote noun /misˈkwōt/ A passage or remark quoted inaccurately inaccurate adjective /ɪnˈæ.kjʊ.ɹət/Not accurate; incorrect Incorrect adjective /ˌɪnkəˈɹɛkt/- Not correct; erroneous or wrong.
- Faulty or defective.
- Inappropriate or improper.
It isn't a misquote if it is taken out of context. It's a quote taken out of context. This, however, had a completely incorrect quote, to which even the sentiment was completely wrong. im not contesting your accuracy or logic, i was defining my definitions. just want to communicate how i feel about this because on this issue i believe its a voice not often heard and any civil debate either strengthens existing beliefs or gets rid of flawed ones To do list: Buy a dictionary. Get an education. Language exists for a reason. You simply can't redefine words to suit your own intentions. I'm seriously glad that complete and total incorrectness is not a voice which is often heard. "misquote" has a set definition. The word is accounted for. You can pick one of the other 1,000,000 words, or you can invent your own, but you don't get to redefine already existing ones. Why do you keep attacking him? He already said, and I quote: "You're totally right. I was wrong and want to apologize to everyone in this thread for derailing it" I wanted to believe you were right. Perhaps I'm blind, but I couldn't find that anywhere except in your quote tree. Either it was edited out, or it was edited in. But his whole argument, concerning the Day9 quote, is evolving about it being ok to alter statements / make up quotes. So I thought it's ok for all of us to make up the statement (and a quote) that he apologized and admitted his wrongdoings! I mean it serves our cause/argumentation, so according to him it's ok to do so! (so no you didnt actually miss it;)) The thing is the writer didn't base his article on the Day[9] thing. The part of the article about Day[9] was entirely about how it was excellent that he was so proud of being gamer.
"He" in my earlier post (which you quoted) wasnt the writer, but KurtistheTurtle who defended the misquote (by saying it's ok to misquote as long as it serves your agenda (paraphrased lol!)
About the writer & part 6:
There's this saying in German "Wer einmal lügt dem glaubt man nicht, selbst wenn er dann die Wahrheit spricht".
"One doesnt believe the guy who lied once, even though he might say the truth now/later".
Who's saying the all the other "facts" & "experiences" from the article (or part 6) arent fabricated like the "quote" of Day9? (Or the skype conversation from KurtistheTurtle's friend)
I personally treat "journalism" like a science. Not like writing a novel / story. If one person lies about one part in their paper / publication if destroys the whole credibility of that publication, since how can I be sure (without sources, which the article is missing) that the other stuff isnt made up as well?
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On September 18 2011 08:06 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:12 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 06:56 lorkac wrote:
"Manly" is a termed used to define someone as being tough, strong, possibly bullheaded and strong willed.
"Girly" is a term we use to define someone as weak, shy and submissive.
When a girl is called "manly" it is usually because she is seen as either ugly or strong willed or even (in the case of the Olympics and Tennis (the Williams sisters)) because the woman is winning in a physical event far and above her peers.
Esports has this problem. Esports attacks female players such as Eve harassing her constantly for trying to get into Esports. When the Ironlady tournament was posted here on TL, it was also attacked by males.
The videogame "nerd" culture is a very misogynistic subgroup of society mostly because it is a very male oriented subgroup. Women are only understood as "part" of the group so long as they either play a part where they are objectified (Anna Prosser, lindsay sporrer) or if they attempt to be more masculine (such as the Ironlady tournament being attacked simply because i was female only).
This is not limited to ESports. Women are only really accepted into jock culture so long as they do "masculine" things such as enjoy football in an aggressive and competitive way (as opposed to simply talking about how much they think ______ player is cute/sexy).
In essence, so long as the female is objectified, they are not allowed to be female or feminine. This is not done directly to their face, this is done indirectly as females observe males throw insults at other males wherein the insults are normally a male calling the other male a female of some type (pussy, bitch, cunt) or calling the person who is dominating a sexually dominant figure (fucker, cock, "you fucked me over," "I got fucked over," etc...)
It's just the way it is in first world countries. people dislike(d) eve and the ironlady tournament for singling out females and calling them professionals when they are competing a level nothing like real professionals. Nothing to do with gender, stop creating issues. We dont want your drama. When a tournament singles out nationality, league, skill level, invite/open only, etc... no one complains. When the tournament structure is singled out for any other group it is okay--unless the group is female. Somehow, that gets a lot of flack with people asking the tournament to be shut down. This is not "my drama" since I'm not the one posting on the threads asking for female tournaments to be shut down. Just pointing out that the community is very misogynistic. The praise and demean women for being women instead of treating them exactly the same. They are singled out, talked about as sexy, beautiful, "not as good at the game," put on a pedestal, etc... They listen to males belittle other males by being described as female. "Bitch, cunt" or are being belittled through rape imagery. "Fucked over" "fuck you up" "got fucked up" etc.... Women hear these things, they read these things. Normally men say it behind closed doors but when the internet hides your sex, they get to hear it fully and are in essence forced to hide their sex while online. Why would they feel comfortable being known as a female when being called female is an offensive thing in the gaming culture. It's something prevalent in first world countries that are predominantly white. Just as an example, Slayers_Eve shows up and is in diamond league, she's attacked and told she shouldn't be called a pro gamer. Yellow shows up and is in gold league, the entire community becomes supportive and telling him to practice harder, to be diligent. Why? Because people expect men to be able to reach masters (and they belittle anyone who can't as being bad at this game, telling them that they are damn near retarded) and people don't expect players like Slayers_Eve to be able to do the same thing. Male dominated scenes are almost always sexist establishments. The Esport scene is no different.
1)your first paragraph is stupid because it claims that sex=skill/league/nationality. if you cant understand why tournaments are different for bronze players and GM players, then you shouldnt even bring this up. and what tournament singles out nationality?
2)this fact is only true if you dont consider that anonymous females say the same thing about males. women talk down about men just as much as men talk down about women. like ive siad all thread, its a double standard that only favors women.
3)this is a problem in every country, on every continent, since civilization began. claiming a white male dominance as a root of this problem is both ignorant and wrong. the difference between slayers eve and Yellow is that i believe Yellow was a BW professional who was transitioning games. diamond league=/=pro player, therefore Eve doesnt deserve to be called that. fuck, Grandmaster doesnt mean pro player, so it makes no difference what league you are in.
4)women dominate scenes are also sexism against men. do not act like there isnt such a thing, because there is. the difference is that men dont complain and put on a huge show to get everyones attention about it.
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On September 18 2011 08:04 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 08:02 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:58 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:55 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:49 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:46 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:45 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:43 imallinson wrote:On September 18 2011 07:40 Giant Squid Thing wrote:On September 18 2011 07:37 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
How exactly are they not being sexist, saying horrible things about female gamers behind their backs is fairly sexist no matter how much you want it not to be.
Take the word "female" out of your sentence. Oh guess what, that's exactly what people do in all walks of life all the time. You're misconstruing normal behaviours as sexist for your own gratification. Stop it. The point is they are saying horrible thing because they are female. That is why it is sexist. Also normal bitching like this is when you avoid saying in front of the person. In this case it's not doing it in front of the person or any other member of this group. Men can't win this discussion. Yes they could, very easily in fact. Stop saying horrible, sexist things would probably be the easiest way of going about it. Minority != community Minority != gender A man says something bad, he is bad NOT A man says something bad, Men are bad. It's like this when a woman gets cheated on "oh man all men are scum and cheaters" you hear it all the time.. this is the same thing, projecting. When exactly did I say men as a whole are bad (apart from the last quote because you decided to pet all men into one group). My point is that there are a large section of gamers who are very sexist in an already very male dominated community and that this is a problem because it prevents outsiders coming in and growing the community. I'd hope you agree that growing the community is a good thing. As far as gender not being a minority it isn't numerically but as far as power, influence rights it is. Also the whole cheating thing isn't a great comparison because people tend to say stupid shit they don't actually believe in situations like that. Define large group. Statistically I think it's a very small subset of people who you could genuinely call sexist in this community. Hint: Saying bitch isn't sexist, calling a girl hot isn't sexist. It may be small in numbers but it's a very noisy group who tends to be the first thing people see of the community. Bitch itself isn't sexist but it can be used in a sexist way. Calling someone hot isn't sexist, calling a girl, who you have never met or seen, hot just because she is a girl is sexist and really creepy. edit: I guess I misread you post cuz when I read 'seen' I saw 'know' for some reason. Anyways, do you really see a lot of guys call a girl hot without seeing her? Or are you referring to the obligatory 'is she hot?' post whenever a thread talks about a girl?
Calling Megan Fox "hot" is not sexist.
Thinking that it's normal for women like Megan Fox to flaunt themselves for the male gaze, is. Thinking that all women enjoy being gazed upon, simply because they're female, is sexist. Thinking it's okay to objectify women, is sexist.
Just as an example. You think it's okay to tell a girl she's pretty in normal conversation, but I doubt you tell men they're ugly in casual conversation. You feel it's okay to say to your male friends "I'd tap that ass in a heartbeat!" when talking about a passing female who is beautiful. But you wouldn't say to them "I wouldn't have sex with that dude!" As a male walks by randomly. Because the assumption is that a male is supposed to want to have sex with a female, and hence males tend to point out to the world that they are paying attention to a female. By calling her pretty, by talking about sex, by describing acts of domination as sexual victories. (I fucked him up real good!) It has been normalized into society for men to be understood as dominating women. It is in the words we use, and in the way we treat each other.
To pretend that this sexism doesn't exist is foolish.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
I think the top comment of that video says it all
WHO THE FUCK PUT XBOX'S IN THE FUCKING KITCHEN
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Don't know if the OP is a troll or female. This complete thread becomes almost useless, when the OP uses a false citation, as we of course have already found out on page 1, Day9 never said anything like that.
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EPT
