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On September 18 2011 04:06 Flew wrote:
Aaargh! As a gamer (female) this article pisses me off and makes me nod my head in sad recognition in equal measure.
It's sad, and I hate to admit it, but Esports is the most sexist community I've ever been a part of. But even so, the VAST majority of gamers I meet are NOT sexist, and are infact lovely.
I could write a long response to this article, but I think a lot of parts are just designed to provoke drama and even shame in men, and I'm not going to bother, as it would take too long to write everything I want to. One part I hate in particular though is where Geordie refers to the article by Elly Hart.
Fuck off with your superiority Geordie! Stick your patronising sympathy up your ass - if Elly makes a mistake and says something stupid on the topic of women in gaming (I happen to agree that the comments about Alyssa and alcohol were inappropriate), maybe it's because she has flaws like everyone, not because she's woman and therefore a victim who can't form a real opinion because she's not strong enough to fight against the weight of sexist opinion - the opinion of a very small number of men in my experience.
I'm sorry that Day9 got dragged into this, and I guess it's a sad inevitability given his prominant position in this community. I, however, am a massive fan of Day9, and I definitely think he comes across as one of the guys most likely to fight for respect for women.
On a positive note, I contacted Jinx recently to see if I could get myself a Day9 t-shirt (they're only available in men's sizes, boo!) and I was pleased when they responded that a Day9 shirt for women will soon be available!!
Within a few weeks I will be proudly wearing my Day9 "Be a better gamer" t-shirt - in tribute to the guy who inspires me to be proud of my geekiness. It's thanks to the encouragement of guys like him that I find it possible to continue gaming in the face of the rare sexist idiot I come across.
E-sports is the most sexist community you've been a part of? I genuinely hope you mean that's because of the females, because I don't recall any tournaments or leagues outright banning females from playing in them, yet there are female ones that do just that towards males.
Or do you mean that you take, "bitch" as a derogatory term equating to the degradation of only females? I certainly hope you aren't even going into that realm.
Is it because a bunch of stupid, young males start acting really horny and immature when they find out you are a girl? Guess what? That happens everywhere.
No, females want preferential treatment in this case, I'm glad that there are a lot of men and to an extent other females who are aware this is wrong.
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Complain about taking quotes of context.
PIC
Don't read article where the quotes are used.
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United States12607 Posts
On September 18 2011 03:49 EatThePath wrote:
Why the hell did celerity get warned for this??
Just to avoid any confusion:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 18 2011 01:10 TL.net Bot wrote:The following Auto-Warning was sent to this user by JWDFrom: TL.net Bot Subject: Warning! This is a Warning!
hey, leave post count out of it. very un-TL-like.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
JWD
(Do not reply to this message. No one will receive it.) |
In the future though, please take any issues with moderation to Website Feedback or a mod's PM box. This is off topic. 
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On September 18 2011 04:12 HereticSaint wrote:
E-sports is the most sexist community you've been a part of? I genuinely hope you mean that's because of the females, because I don't recall any tournaments or leagues outright banning females from playing in them, yet there are female ones that do just that towards males.
Or do you mean that you take, "bitch" as a derogatory term equating to the degradation of only females? I certainly hope you aren't even going into that realm.
Is it because a bunch of stupid, young males start acting really horny and immature when they find out you are a girl? Guess what? That happens everywhere.
No, females want preferential treatment in this case, I'm glad that there are a lot of men and to an extent other females who are aware this is wrong.
It happens everywhere? What evidence do you have of this? It's disappointing that there's guys like you that keeping telling themselves "yeah, lots of guys are like this, everywhere", when it's simply not true. Guys (and girls) just keep using this as an a excuse not to change their behaviour.
I was a military cadet for 3 years, spent another 3 years on a computer science degree where I was often the only female in my class, spent seven years practising martial arts and was eventually promoted to the captain of my karate club. I now work in a trade that is still heavily male dominated. And do you know how many times I experienced sexism? Practically never.
Please STOP telling yourself that "it happens everywhere" because it doesn't. In no other community have I experienced the general expectation that I will be a low achiever because I'm female. It's rare that I hear the word "girl" used as an insult, as an adjective used to mean "weak" and "wrong", but when I do hear it used in this way, it's usually in this community.
You also seem to have ignored the fact where I said that the VAST majority are NOT sexist. I love this community - in general, this community is NOT sexist. However, other communities I've been a part of are even less sexist than this one - making this the most sexist community I've been a part of.
I shouldn't have to state this, but obviously, I'm talking from my experience. Other people may have difference experiences and different opinions.
For the record, I don't agree with tournaments that are for females only. I would be extremely disappointed if a tournament was for men only. I also don't have a problem with the word bitch, mostly because I have no problem calling a man a bitch.
However, "bastard" is an insult I have only ever used towards men. Are men offended by this?
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Really? Attacking Day9 for sexism?
Day9 is like the nicest guy ever. I think sexism is a problem on internet but whats more a problem is just general respect for people(which feeds into sexism mind you). Just making that up shows no respect to D9 and that is ridiculous. I haven't watched D9 Daily in over a year but the guy obviously entertains and helps people so much that I'm more shocked someone would make shit up about him
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Everyone needs to read the article posted in the OP. For me, while I did disagree a little with some of the characterization of Day [9], really opened my eyes to some of the ways I interact not just with my girlfriend, but my non-gaming friends as well.
I don't post useful stuff on TL normally, but this is useful advice.
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Honestly, I see more sexism in the work place then I do Esports. I see it more in REAL sports.
This is all a bunch of crap and overreactions. If anybody takes Day9 seriously when he says stuff like that then you should seriously consider to never get on the internet again cause there is alot of worse shit then this. To be completely honest, when I see people talking about girls on SC its mostly about how hot some pro gamers gf is and what they do in the community and I really am being honest here.
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However, "bastard" is an insult I have only ever used towards men. Are men offended by this
In my experience, no.
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On September 18 2011 04:31 Flew wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 04:12 HereticSaint wrote:
E-sports is the most sexist community you've been a part of? I genuinely hope you mean that's because of the females, because I don't recall any tournaments or leagues outright banning females from playing in them, yet there are female ones that do just that towards males.
Or do you mean that you take, "bitch" as a derogatory term equating to the degradation of only females? I certainly hope you aren't even going into that realm.
Is it because a bunch of stupid, young males start acting really horny and immature when they find out you are a girl? Guess what? That happens everywhere.
No, females want preferential treatment in this case, I'm glad that there are a lot of men and to an extent other females who are aware this is wrong. It happens everywhere? What evidence do you have of this? It's disappointing that there's guys like you that keeping telling themselves "yeah, lots of guys are like this, everywhere", when it's simply not true. Guys (and girls) just keep using this as an a excuse not to change their behaviour. I was a military cadet for 3 years, spent another 3 years on a computer science degree where I was often the only female in my class, spent seven years practising martial arts and was eventually promoted to the captain of my karate club. I now work in a trade that is still heavily male dominated. And do you know how many times I experienced sexism? Practically never. Please STOP telling yourself that "it happens everywhere" because it doesn't. In no other community have I experienced the general expectation that I will be a low achiever because I'm female. It's rare that I hear the word "girl" used as an insult, as an adjective used to mean "weak" and "wrong", but when I do hear it used in this way, it's usually in this community. You also seem to have ignored the fact where I said that the VAST majority are NOT sexist. I love this community - in general, this community is NOT sexist. However, other communities I've been a part of are even less sexist than this one - making this the most sexist community I've been a part of. I shouldn't have to state this, but obviously, I'm talking from my experience. Other people may have difference experiences and different opinions. For the record, I don't agree with tournaments that are for females only. I would be extremely disappointed if a tournament was for men only. I also don't have a problem with the word bitch, mostly because I have no problem calling a man a bitch. However, "bastard" is an insult I have only ever used towards men. Are men offended by this?
If I offended you, I'm sorry, but like you said a lot of this is personal experience and that's why I don't like people making blanket statements, like the article quoted in the OP, it's sensationalist. From working with other men at a job that didn't have females around (Not because they were intentionally avoiding hiring females, but because of certain shifting or what have you), participating in sports and hanging out with people who are "frat boys" all have been not only as sexist as what I experience when gaming, but more sexist.
Again, that's my personal experience. I have never once gamed with a female and because she was a female immediately thought less of her before I viewed her game play, from playing WoW at a high level, to playing SC, SC2 and other rts/fps games at a more mid competitive level. Neither have the people I associated with, yes there are people out there but to act as if it's a much larger majority of people... eh. Again, that's personal experience but it to an extent offends me (And yeah, that's my own issue) that it's basically portraying male gamers as generally being more sexist when in my personal experience that just isn't the case. (Using examples like the female only tournies/leagues/etc)
Anyway, I'm sorry you experience such prejudice and hope people treat you better in the future.
Also, cursing in general doesn't bother me at all. To me it's all intent, if someone says something with the intent for it to be harmful towards you, then it doesn't matter if they say tuna fish or bastard. They can say whatever they want if they aren't having a negative intent.
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On September 18 2011 03:14 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 03:08 Magic_Mike wrote:On September 18 2011 01:58 MichaelDonovan wrote:
A lot of female gamers are sexist too. They are constantly saying things like "What? Scared to get beat by a girl?" and "Hey boys YES I AM a girl gamer, but I'm NOT here to find dates, ok guys?" in their online profiles. That doesn't help much. If female gamers want male gamers to be less sexist, they should stop making a big deal out of the fact that they are girls to begin with, and just play the game without mentioning it.
P.S. I don't mean to say that all female gamers behave this way, but it happens a lot. You are absolutely correct. In fact women in the gaming community tend to segregate themselves a great deal more than the men do. Right as I right this there is an Iron Lady Champion Cup going on stream. Pretty much proves your point. So basically, a few women have already learned how to survive in the gamer community and try to have a thick skin while they're at it. I don't like where that's headed, and cherry picking these examples is as bad as saying that black men use the "n" word on each other, therefore it's fair game. Edit: I'll reiterate, I don't like where it's headed because it's just like women wearing revealing clothing because that's what men want--that sort of thing. Not that bothers me, but it should bother women tbh. And I personally care about the face more than anything else superficial. After all, the face is much more than that.
what, it isn't damn N****, I've been using it wrong on Xbox this whole time. who knew you had to be a certain skin color and race to say a word.
On September 18 2011 04:36 Potling wrote:Show nested quote +However, "bastard" is an insult I have only ever used towards men. Are men offended by this In my experience, no.
women really really hate being called cunts, and I suppose the opposite is true, you call them a bastard and it really irks them, the way calling a man a bitch would.
of course, the best way to make a guy on bnet rage is to call him "girl".
say 'whats up girl, why you mad".
As if they were actually a girl you were hitting on. Ooh the rage.
Anyone else have good pointers of the best way to use gender based insults for maximum rage potential on bnet?
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On September 18 2011 04:31 Flew wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 04:12 HereticSaint wrote:
E-sports is the most sexist community you've been a part of? I genuinely hope you mean that's because of the females, because I don't recall any tournaments or leagues outright banning females from playing in them, yet there are female ones that do just that towards males.
Or do you mean that you take, "bitch" as a derogatory term equating to the degradation of only females? I certainly hope you aren't even going into that realm.
Is it because a bunch of stupid, young males start acting really horny and immature when they find out you are a girl? Guess what? That happens everywhere.
No, females want preferential treatment in this case, I'm glad that there are a lot of men and to an extent other females who are aware this is wrong. It happens everywhere? What evidence do you have of this? It's disappointing that there's guys like you that keeping telling themselves "yeah, lots of guys are like this, everywhere", when it's simply not true. Guys (and girls) just keep using this as an a excuse not to change their behaviour. I was a military cadet for 3 years, spent another 3 years on a computer science degree where I was often the only female in my class, spent seven years practising martial arts and was eventually promoted to the captain of my karate club. I now work in a trade that is still heavily male dominated. And do you know how many times I experienced sexism? Practically never. Please STOP telling yourself that "it happens everywhere" because it doesn't. In no other community have I experienced the general expectation that I will be a low achiever because I'm female. It's rare that I hear the word "girl" used as an insult, as an adjective used to mean "weak" and "wrong", but when I do hear it used in this way, it's usually in this community. You also seem to have ignored the fact where I said that the VAST majority are NOT sexist. I love this community - in general, this community is NOT sexist. However, other communities I've been a part of are even less sexist than this one - making this the most sexist community I've been a part of. I shouldn't have to state this, but obviously, I'm talking from my experience. Other people may have difference experiences and different opinions. For the record, I don't agree with tournaments that are for females only. I would be extremely disappointed if a tournament was for men only. I also don't have a problem with the word bitch, mostly because I have no problem calling a man a bitch. However, "bastard" is an insult I have only ever used towards men. Are men offended by this?
I guess I'm just going to say I disagree, perhaps it's just a case of different experiences. I don't think "girl" is used as an insult anymore so than most sports but that may be because most people have pretty bad experiences with female players, I've had quite a few myself. That doesn't excuse bad behavior, but once again, this behavior isn't exclusively targeted at women, and I don't think it's excessively targeted at women either in that they aren't bearing the brunt of it more-so than any other group, minority or otherwise.
I think another aspect of this may be perception, in my experience, men tend to joke around and take the piss out of each other regularly. I know that I nerd rage with my friends a lot and it's always lighthearted and acted out(Think Destiny with Minigun), and this is how I will behavior when I'm playing games. I've noticed that women respond differently to this and I've had to adjust my behavior so as to not offend, which I don't like to do, because just as I want to be open and relaxed when I'm hanging out with male friends(which is why dudes hang out in the first place), I don't want to have to watch what I say with people on the internet, particularly friends.
To me, I lump them up under gamer and play my game as a gamer, I don't want to have to tone down my behavior because we're playing with a woman. Also, guys in my experience will make personal insults about each other and not make a big deal out of it, this shit never works with women. Also, this is not at all limited to the internet, or to gaming, it's just how guys are with one another.
For example, when this dude asks me what he should do because he's getting owned at bottom lane, my response was "Go to base, buy some potions, build some bracers and then uninstall the fucking game", we all have a good laugh. When a similar instance occurred with a female gamer, she got defensive as fuck and it got mad awkward.
It's very situational, and it varies heavily from person to person, and I don't think your generalization that this community is the most sexist is accurate. I have encountered girls who fit right the fuck in with my online friends and we have fun playing games, I've encountered girls who make shit awkward as hell and then make an issue out of being a girl and how people want to fuck them.
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I can't believe someone would have the audacity to incorrectly quote Day 9. He would never say something like "you young bitch." Also I feel that sexism is overly prevalent in SC2. I mean, remember the Slayers_Eve incident? That was totally out of control and unnecessary. Also, I feel with lots of tournaments and clans out there that are girls only the game dives into a deeper schism.
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I don't think it was nerdbait, just a quote misremembered by someone looking for something. He was looking for examples of mysogyny, and an excuse to talk about Day[9] for a bit (and if you actually read the article, everything else he says about him (quite a lot, in an article that isn't about him at all) is positive). In the daily #100, right after talking about the "g.g.", Day[9] says, "ugh, I'm so glad that ended. She clearly didn't have respect for the important things in life", and you can easily imagine him adding "(stupid bitch)". Instead, he just implied it (in a clearly joking manner).
As for the article, I thought (apart from that misquote) it was mostly well written, and made a good point. I used to play M:tG many years ago, and still play plenty of games online (including sc2, naturally, why else would I be here?), and I would agree that there seems to be a stronger underpinning of sexism in the gaming culture than elsewhere.
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How is it our fault that gaming is guy dominated..... YOU KNOW WHAT? IM NOW MAD I CANT GO INTO A BEAUTY SALON WITHOUT BEING JUDGED. Being a guy is so danm hard man.
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Even if it did offend men to be called bastard, it wouldn't matter because men are all criminals and rapists and all women are perfect flowers and it's fine to laugh about male genital mutilation on talk shows.
edit: forgot to quote.
There's no sexism here, there's just a refusal to accept that women should be given preferential treatment in a place where there's absolutely no need for it.
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On September 18 2011 00:01 lorkac wrote:
The gaming culture is centralized in already highly misogynistic societies, the US and Europe. How can't there be sexism in gaming? Add to that the hypermasculine sports aura wherein we enjoy feminizing weakness such as calling the opposing players "our bitch" as well as determining cowardice as being "pussies" we end up with a culture that glorifies the masculine and attacks what we conceive to be feminine ideals.
Esports is very very misogynistic.
This is probably the most ignorant statement I have ever read on these forums. Perhaps we should go over to Africa, where women are raped as a part of everyday life, or over to East Asia, where baby girls are left to die on the side of the street, or over to Middle East where women aren't allowed to drive cars.
Yea, a society that emasculates men by calling them 'bitches' and 'pussies' is clearly very very misogynistic. LOL? Are you even listening to yourself? A society that EMASCULATES MEN by calling them BITCHES is very very hateful towards women?
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On September 18 2011 04:36 Potling wrote:Show nested quote +However, "bastard" is an insult I have only ever used towards men. Are men offended by this In my experience, no.
"bastard" isn't even a gendered insult. It's an insult that questions your parentage (born out of wedlock), generally suggesting you are the child of a whore.
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On September 18 2011 04:35 casperghost wrote:
Everyone needs to read the article posted in the OP. For me, while I did disagree a little with some of the characterization of Day [9], really opened my eyes to some of the ways I interact not just with my girlfriend, but my non-gaming friends as well.
I don't post useful stuff on TL normally, but this is useful advice.
The day9 characterization was completely wrong. In every possible way.
Why do you think the rest of this article, where you dont know as much as the day9 quote, isnt wrong on the same magnitude?
Why would "you" jeopardize your good article with such a quote? It only shows people "you dont know shit about what you're talking about. maybe you know shit about the other stuff you talk about".
It's stupid, yellow press like level. And I cannot take such an article serious.
It's a stupid person talking stupid stuff. He lost all his credibility.
But on a more serious note:
If you're a girl. I dont care. I play with you, I will lose to you, I will win against you. And we might have fun. I will treat you as an equal.
But dont pull the "I'm a girl card". It discredits you.
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On September 18 2011 05:03 MozzarellaL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 04:36 Potling wrote:However, "bastard" is an insult I have only ever used towards men. Are men offended by this In my experience, no. "bastard" isn't even a gendered insult. It's an insult that questions your parentage (born out of wedlock), generally suggesting you are the child of a whore.
Generally speaking guys don't really get offended by name calling and such. Most guy friends who hang out spend the vast majority of their time figuring out new ways to humiliate, abuse, and hit their male friends in the nuts when they least expect it. When a guy gets hurt, we generally all point and laugh unless it is too serious and even then there is usually one guy who snickers. When a guy calls another guy a name or an insult, the other will try to one up him and if it is a success, there will be either more insults or in same cases an agreement that that one was a good one.
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On September 18 2011 05:08 Magic_Mike wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 05:03 MozzarellaL wrote:On September 18 2011 04:36 Potling wrote:However, "bastard" is an insult I have only ever used towards men. Are men offended by this In my experience, no. "bastard" isn't even a gendered insult. It's an insult that questions your parentage (born out of wedlock), generally suggesting you are the child of a whore. Generally speaking guys don't really get offended by name calling and such. Most guy friends who hang out spend the vast majority of their time figuring out new ways to humiliate, abuse, and hit their male friends in the nuts when they least expect it. When a guy gets hurt, we generally all point and laugh unless it is too serious and even then there is usually one guy who snickers. When a guy calls another guy a name or an insult, the other will try to one up him and if it is a success, there will be either more insults or in same cases an agreement that that one was a good one.
This is what I touched on earlier, and this is how I behave when I'm playing games on the internet because I'm trying to let loose and relax a bit, I don't want to have to be super careful about what I say and there are women who can fit right in and let the regular teasing just roll right off, but some get defensive and make things super awkward. It's really a case-by-case thing and any sort of generalization in this regard isn't really helpful.
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EPT
