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On September 18 2011 03:22 Shamrock_ wrote:
I'm sorry, but how often do men make fun of other men? I mean, every third thing that comes out of my mouth is some slur "against" men for humour. Women? Not that often. Every now and again, sure, but don't feel singled out. Take it like a man.
I agree with this.
I've honestly never witnessed any event of a guy using specific anti-female slur against just women.
I've never really seen a woman get singled out negatively either.. well there was one of those "HEY GUYS IM A GIRL XD" types, and she got called a whore and instantly put on ignore, but tbh.. if a guy came into a group chat being a massive idiot, he'd get the same response.
The only people that seem to be actively creating gender division lines are the females of the community.
Quite the attention grab 
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It was a major and damaging mistake to misquote day9 like that. I hope Geordie edits the article. You know what would most likely lead to that? A crop of reasonable comments urging him to fix the misquote so subsequent readers don't get the wrong idea. We don't need a bunch of sc2 fans, many of whom would die for day9, rampaging the comments of an MTG article.
I completely disagree. You make someone else look like a complete jackass for doing nothing wrong in a public place, and you should be rampaged by comments of angry fans. Now a bunch of MTG fans who want to get into starcraft will have a prejudiced notion of day9 as a jackass. That's not fair.
It's libel. It's the kind of thing you can sue someone for if you have just a bit more grounding for it.
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I think it's funny when a writer tries to target a group or a culture, generalize them by saying the scene itself is sexist, etc. I honestly don't give a flying fuck what Day[9] thinks or says outside of his Starcraft 2 analysis.
Yes, like the rest of the world, gamers often call someone a bitch. Often someone is a little bitch. But this writer, who sounds to me like a mad, finger-pointing feminist with no real target in today's day and age, is simply looking to make an issue out of a non-issue. Take it to Day[9] if you've got a problem with Day[9].
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On September 18 2011 03:43 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +It was a major and damaging mistake to misquote day9 like that. I hope Geordie edits the article. You know what would most likely lead to that? A crop of reasonable comments urging him to fix the misquote so subsequent readers don't get the wrong idea. We don't need a bunch of sc2 fans, many of whom would die for day9, rampaging the comments of an MTG article. I completely disagree. You make someone else look like a complete jackass for doing nothing wrong in a public place, and you should be rampaged by comments of angry fans. Now a bunch of MTG fans who want to get into starcraft will have a prejudiced notion of day9 as a jackass. That's not fair. It's libel. It's the kind of thing you can sue someone for if you have just a bit more grounding for it.
So we should get it fixed, no?? That's my point.
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On September 18 2011 03:38 Grumbels wrote:
Sexism isn't worth being upset about because other minorities are being insulted too?
On September 18 2011 03:40 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 03:38 Grumbels wrote:
Sexism isn't worth being upset about because other minorities are being insulted too? Yeah, my lawn has weeds in it and so do my flowerbeds. The hedges need water too and the woodshed is falling apart. I'll just give up on keeping my yard nice.
You're missing the point. Using your example, it would be like saying "My fucking flowerbeds have weeds, those fucking flowerbeds, man those flowerbeds" and trying to tackle the flowerbed issue but it doesn't do anything because you've still got fucking weeds all over the place and they keep coming back because you are singling out one aspect instead of focussing on the bigger issue.
The bigger issue in this case, I have yet to see a proposition to actually tackle it, there's the simple, "Hey guys, stop being jerks okay!" which is awesome but gets you about as far as "Hey guys, stops being jerks to girls, okay!". Why blow this small part out of proportion when the issue isn't restricted to this one aspect and is an actual fundamental problem with any interaction online with the benefit of anonymity.
Also, we're not talking about minorities, you can get ragged on for just about anything online. Singling out sexism as though it's a major issue is idiotic because it's a tiny part of something bigger.
Quite simply, saying that people are dicks to girls on the internet is accurate but not telling the whole story which is simply, people are dicks on the internet.
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On September 18 2011 03:39 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 03:25 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 03:23 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 18 2011 03:17 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 03:09 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 18 2011 02:59 probob wrote:On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote:
[Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Saying that sexism is ok because there is racism too, doesnt make any sense at all. And to be honest atheists for example dont get nearly as much shit as gay or black people. I mean those trolls are probably 14 year olds who hardly ever saw a black man in their life but somehow think its okay to use the nword just randomly. Just blows my mind how ignorant some people can be. I'm saying theres two consistent and rational options here: 1) Decry all the injustices and all the cruelty and lack of respect that comes with gaming, actively attempting to make it unacceptable or 2) Dont It's retarded to fixate on a specific demographic and say HA!! People are meaner to them by .2 margin over the next target who, themselves, are discriminated against 30% more than the average! Lets stop THAT and not give a rats ass about all the rest. Either grow a thicker skin or actually attempt to make gaming a civil affair. It's inconsistent and irrational to only try to better the experience for one group of people. On September 18 2011 03:06 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 02:58 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 18 2011 02:54 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 18 2011 02:41 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
Nah, there is definitely misogyny in gaming culture. It's more of an internet-phenomenon, but women are generally treated like crap in the gaming community. I definitely think there is an issue, but articles like these are just fucking awful.
But I agree on the other things. Gendered insults? Who the hell cares? Only guys are called "assholes" because I don't consider someone who uses the term a misandrist or whatever. It's like saying it's sexist to use He instead of She. The fact is that almost all english insults are gender-specific. Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet? I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned. Oh sure. That's true. But for the most part you can keep those kinds of details hidden. In the gaming community however it's fairly typical to use microphones and voice-chat, so this kind of behavior can prevent women from using their microphone/webcam because of male harassment. And that's bullshit. It's more of an issue because you can immediately identify someone as female by their voice. It's pretty telling that other people have to do similar things when you specifically write "hidden" into how they must behave. I highly- highly highly highly doubt that if a black was on skype and sounded at ALL like he was black, that he wouldnt be harassed viciously, or a gay person. It's not like gaming just so happens to suck in all those worst people in society, all the racists, all the anti-theists, all the homophobes and all the sexists. It's that its the internet and differentiation causes discrimination, for mere kicks. Hence you either keep it impersonal and consciously do so, and yes indeed for a lot of people [accents or whatever] that includes voice chat, or you roll with the punches and accept the issues that come with gaming. Then I'm going to have to completely disagree. There are plenty of women on WoW who don't use microphones because of harassment. Guys ask for pics and a/s/l and all that other "hilarious" stuff that's just annoying. It's really discouraging. The other things are actually really hard to tell just by voice-alone. Accents, race, and sexual orientation are completely ambiguous just by voice. Accents are ambiguous by voice...? Pretty sure by definition they arent. Plenty of gays talk in feminine mannerisms, or guys who do but arent gay will be called as such, and yes, it is possible to differentiate peoples race based on their voice. It's not infallible but its certainly doable. Well okay, how's this: I simply have never heard of anyone who didn't play with a microphone because of an accent. It's damaging to their enjoyment and gameplay to be afraid to use their mics because of their gender. It's damaging to OUR enjoyment and gameplay to have that stigma as well. Anyway, we can all agree the article is shit. So we can bond with that. Nor do I know anyone who hasnt used the mic because of their gender, so were even. Who gives a fuck about anecdotal experiences? I wasnt even saying you couldnt use a mic due to accent or that it was the same equivalent of a girl, I'm saying were all berated on a regular basis online, we all collectively deal with it. Women dont need special coddling because on occasion its slightly worse than others. I literally have no idea how it could be damaging to my enjoyment or gameplay to have people think gaming is sexist, I'm not even sure how thats possible? Damn that was an unsatisfactory pvp, I couldnt get the horrors of this shitty article out of my head!  No, it's damaging to gameplay and enjoyment if people don't use their microphones. Like it actually affects the way you play a game and how fun the game is when you are actually talking to each other. Here's an actually decent article on sexism in gaming: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_17/109-OMG-Girlz-Dont-Exist-on-teh-Intarweb-1 That article is dumb to me as well, all these singular anecdotes don't mean shit because once again it's not exclusive to girls and I'm not sure it's even that much worse for girls. I can remember numerous times when everyone on vent has teased someone for their accent, the shit in their background, the sound of their voice... The girl's actual response to the shit in that article was retarded, if you have to break the anonymity that the internet provides you, you don't have to make a big fucking deal of it, it seems that she eventually showed them her picture and first of all the people in the IRC chat posted were idiots to the extreme and she was dumb for playing into their retardation. I've played with a dude and his fiance in DotA who were sick as fuck, she played awesome supports and gankers. I've run into women playing LoL who were treated perfectly fine. I've run into a handful of girls in HoN who didn't get shit, same goes for WoW. I've run into girls who have gotten some shit, I've run into brazilians who have gotten some shit, I've run into people with lisps who've gotten some shit. It's not exclusive to anyone.
Okay. Again, I've never heard of that. That's fine then. Look I just don't want people to affect their gameplay because of assholes.
I don't really understand your problem with her response. She didn't make a big deal of it... in fact that's where all the humor in the article comes from...
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I find a lot of this thread pretty discouraging. Just like in most RL social situations, everyone's priority should be to remain polite, that's how we keep society functioning well. We (males) shouldn't be so defensive over claims of sexism, we should instead be accommodating. Yes some girls themselves might be sexist, that just means they're jerks like many guys are and should be ignored. Yes there is an Iron Lady tournament going on, how is that different from any other subset of the Starcraft community enjoying spending time together? Yes the author may have bungled a quote by Day 9, but that just means we can ignore the accusations against Day 9 and focus on the claims of the rest of the article.
I find especially disingenuous the claims that we should try to de-genderize gaming, for example by eliminating girl-only competitions. We need to face up to the fact that, for whatever reason, eSPORTS is currently an (overwhelmingly) majority male field, and that women are UNIQUE here for that reason. It's in our best interests to keep our field as diverse as possible, that's why we support foreigners training to compete with Koreans, so tournaments aren't just all-Korean affairs. Why shouldn't we be especially respectful to female gamers, so maybe one day tournaments aren't just all-male affairs?
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On September 18 2011 03:33 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 00:48 Cel.erity wrote:On September 18 2011 00:44 IveReturned wrote:On September 18 2011 00:43 IndoorSpawningPool wrote:On September 18 2011 00:33 PooLarX wrote:
Pathetic attempt at calling out a very note worthy figure in our community for nothing more than more traffic for their website.
DO NOT EVEN CLICK THOSE LINKS, DO NOT READ THE ARTICLE, DO NOT GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. Best advice in this thread ↑↑ Yea mods please put it on the top of the discussion. I'll go ahead and spell it out again for all you double-digit post count people who don't bother to read an entire thread before spewing your bullshit. Geordie Tait does not work for Star City Games, he did not write this article for profit (probably made <$50 off of it and could have written anything else for that same amount of money), and is in no way attacking Day9 if you bothered to read literally two sentences beyond that particular quote. It was a misquote, it was a mistake, get over it. User was warned for this post Why the hell did celerity get warned for this?? I see some anger, some forum fighting (referring to reading before posting, and a terse statement of his point). This is no worse than most of the things that get posted here. So in an objective sense it seems okay. In terms of the discussion, celerity knows what he's talking about SINCE HE HAS WRITTEN FOR STARCITY BEFORE, and is correcting a HUGE misconception that a lot of knee-jerkers are reacting to. I'm not trying to argue with moderators because this is their site and it's their business, and they deemed it worthy of action. I bring it up because common forumgoers who know little to nothing about the MTG article culture should not see red text under the naysayer post as validation. It was a major and damaging mistake to misquote day9 like that. I hope Geordie edits the article. You know what would most likely lead to that? A crop of reasonable comments urging him to fix the misquote so subsequent readers don't get the wrong idea. We don't need a bunch of sc2 fans, many of whom would die for day9, rampaging the comments of an MTG article. Speaking of which, Kwark and everyone in the same vein are commenting with very little idea of the way MTG articles come about. "DONT GIVE THEM TRAFFIC!!" is a fad that might apply to things like kotaku articles, because they are part of a media company trying to turn a profit online. StarCityGames sells magic cards. They build popularity as a community site by having good articles from pros and up-and-comers. Then they sell a lot of cards. They also run tournaments now the last few years. They probably care very little about sheer traffic numbers because it amounts to very little of the revenue. Geordie's article is more of a blog than anything. It is certainly not journalism. You have to be looking for a fight outside the lines of context if you want to argue about that. Kwark, I respect you as a poster usually and I'm proud you were so quick in identifying and posting day9's true words. But I think it'd be great if you would rescind your earlier vitriol, cause you have little to no idea about the true character of that article and it's making a bad example for others to come in here and spew without having any experience in the MTG community when something might reflect poorly on everyone's hero day9. Celerity, please keep fighting the good fight responding constructively to people who are misguided or who have been mislead. Everyone else: read the whole article. Read all the comments under it. Read the other link in the OP. Read all the comments here. Then if something hasn't yet been said that you think people should see, write a constructive post! MTG articles are hardly meant to be public attention grabs, they are written for the MTG community (which is a pretty narrow place in the scheme of things), and you should respond accordingly. Don't stomp on top of a group of friends' discussion. If you want to respond to the article as a public statement, do so on the grounds of the discussion about gender inequity in gaming culture. There are some choice comments below the article that speak about how most of the backlash is centered on word choice, peripheral statements, asides, or other details. Very little of the criticism actually responds to the main thrust of the (lengthy) article. I don't see anything different here, which saddens me. Yes, we get it, there was a mistake with a day9 quote. You're all internet heroes for spotting it, great. Go be constructive and let Geordie know nicely that he should fix it so our sc2 community doesn't get bad rep. Then discuss gender equality which is an important thing to discuss... or else why are you here in the thread?? **Note: for an example of the comments I want you to see that discuss the nature of the negative responses, search for "Billy Moreno" on the page, he's a dozen or two comments down. [edit] fixed a parenthesis. I gtg but will respond when i'm back in a few hours. if anyone cares.
That's all fine and well, but celerity might've just been warned for this particular sentence: "I'll go ahead and spell it out again for all you double-digit post count people who don't bother to read an entire thread before spewing your bullshit"
And then you're calling him constructive?
"This is no worse than most of the things that get posted here"
^ Please direct me to these.
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On September 18 2011 03:33 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 00:48 Cel.erity wrote:On September 18 2011 00:44 IveReturned wrote:On September 18 2011 00:43 IndoorSpawningPool wrote:On September 18 2011 00:33 PooLarX wrote:
Pathetic attempt at calling out a very note worthy figure in our community for nothing more than more traffic for their website.
DO NOT EVEN CLICK THOSE LINKS, DO NOT READ THE ARTICLE, DO NOT GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. Best advice in this thread ↑↑ Yea mods please put it on the top of the discussion. I'll go ahead and spell it out again for all you double-digit post count people who don't bother to read an entire thread before spewing your bullshit. Geordie Tait does not work for Star City Games, he did not write this article for profit (probably made <$50 off of it and could have written anything else for that same amount of money), and is in no way attacking Day9 if you bothered to read literally two sentences beyond that particular quote. It was a misquote, it was a mistake, get over it. User was warned for this post Why the hell did celerity get warned for this?? I see some anger, some forum fighting (referring to reading before posting, and a terse statement of his point). This is no worse than most of the things that get posted here. So in an objective sense it seems okay. In terms of the discussion, celerity knows what he's talking about SINCE HE HAS WRITTEN FOR STARCITY BEFORE, and is correcting a HUGE misconception that a lot of knee-jerkers are reacting to. I'm not trying to argue with moderators because this is their site and it's their business, and they deemed it worthy of action. I bring it up because common forumgoers who know little to nothing about the MTG article culture should not see red text under the naysayer post as validation. It was a major and damaging mistake to misquote day9 like that. I hope Geordie edits the article. You know what would most likely lead to that? A crop of reasonable comments urging him to fix the misquote so subsequent readers don't get the wrong idea. We don't need a bunch of sc2 fans, many of whom would die for day9, rampaging the comments of an MTG article. Speaking of which, Kwark and everyone in the same vein are commenting with very little idea of the way MTG articles come about. "DONT GIVE THEM TRAFFIC!!" is a fad that might apply to things like kotaku articles, because they are part of a media company trying to turn a profit online. StarCityGames sells magic cards. They build popularity as a community site by having good articles from pros and up-and-comers. Then they sell a lot of cards. They also run tournaments now the last few years. They probably care very little about sheer traffic numbers because it amounts to very little of the revenue. Geordie's article is more of a blog than anything. It is certainly not journalism. You have to be looking for a fight outside the lines of context if you want to argue about that. Kwark, I respect you as a poster usually and I'm proud you were so quick in identifying and posting day9's true words. But I think it'd be great if you would rescind your earlier vitriol, cause you have little to no idea about the true character of that article and it's making a bad example for others to come in here and spew without having any experience in the MTG community when something might reflect poorly on everyone's hero day9. Celerity, please keep fighting the good fight responding constructively to people who are misguided or who have been mislead. Everyone else: read the whole article. Read all the comments under it. Read the other link in the OP. Read all the comments here. Then if something hasn't yet been said that you think people should see, write a constructive post! MTG articles are hardly meant to be public attention grabs, they are written for the MTG community (which is a pretty narrow place in the scheme of things), and you should respond accordingly. Don't stomp on top of a group of friends' discussion. If you want to respond to the article as a public statement, do so on the grounds of the discussion about gender inequity in gaming culture. There are some choice comments below the article that speak about how most of the backlash is centered on word choice, peripheral statements, asides, or other details. Very little of the criticism actually responds to the main thrust of the (lengthy) article. I don't see anything different here, which saddens me. Yes, we get it, there was a mistake with a day9 quote. You're all internet heroes for spotting it, great. Go be constructive and let Geordie know nicely that he should fix it so our sc2 community doesn't get bad rep. Then discuss gender equality which is an important thing to discuss... or else why are you here in the thread?? **Note: for an example of the comments I want you to see that discuss the nature of the negative responses, search for "Billy Moreno" on the page, he's a dozen or two comments down. [edit] fixed a parenthesis. I gtg but will respond when i'm back in a few hours. if anyone cares.
Make shit up about, "beloved character" Day[9], put it in an incredibly sensationalist overall "blog" defending a shallow woman, pass it around to everyone you know, expect no backlash whatsoever.
Hmm, that seems reasonable.
PS: I expect more than $50 dollars if I have to editorialize for someone that stupid. (the person who wrote the article that is)
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Day9 is not sexiest or raciest, calling him so makes me sad. Being a woman in esports maybe different for women then it is for men, but it does not mean that they are not welcome. I just dislike seeing these threads all the time......
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On September 18 2011 03:47 Mordiford wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 18 2011 03:38 Grumbels wrote:
Sexism isn't worth being upset about because other minorities are being insulted too? On September 18 2011 03:40 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 03:38 Grumbels wrote:
Sexism isn't worth being upset about because other minorities are being insulted too? Yeah, my lawn has weeds in it and so do my flowerbeds. The hedges need water too and the woodshed is falling apart. I'll just give up on keeping my yard nice. You're missing the point. Using your example, it would be like saying "My fucking flowerbeds have weeds, those fucking flowerbeds, man those flowerbeds" and trying to tackle the flowerbed issue but it doesn't do anything because you've still got fucking weeds all over the place and they keep coming back because you are singling out one aspect instead of focussing on the bigger issue. The bigger issue in this case, I have yet to see a proposition to actually tackle it, there's the simple, "Hey guys, stop being jerks okay!" which is awesome but gets you about as far as "Hey guys, stops being jerks to girls, okay!". Why blow this small part out of proportion when the issue isn't restricted to this one aspect and is an actual fundamental problem with any interaction online with the benefit of anonymity. Also, we're not talking about minorities, you can get ragged on for just about anything online. Singling out sexism as though it's a major issue is idiotic because it's a tiny part of something bigger. Quite simply, saying that people are dicks to girls on the internet is accurate but not telling the whole story which is simply, people are dicks on the internet.
Your "bigger issue" isn't treatable unless you wish to wipe out humanity and start over again. You can't stop people from being mean, but you can remove ammunition by attacking specific instances.
By the way, I think it's pretty fair to dismiss this article after finding out a wrong statement. There are a lot of articles on the internet after all and it's up to them to convince you, not the other way around.
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On September 18 2011 03:47 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 03:43 DoubleReed wrote:It was a major and damaging mistake to misquote day9 like that. I hope Geordie edits the article. You know what would most likely lead to that? A crop of reasonable comments urging him to fix the misquote so subsequent readers don't get the wrong idea. We don't need a bunch of sc2 fans, many of whom would die for day9, rampaging the comments of an MTG article. I completely disagree. You make someone else look like a complete jackass for doing nothing wrong in a public place, and you should be rampaged by comments of angry fans. Now a bunch of MTG fans who want to get into starcraft will have a prejudiced notion of day9 as a jackass. That's not fair. It's libel. It's the kind of thing you can sue someone for if you have just a bit more grounding for it. So we should get it fixed, no?? That's my point.
Yea, I know. But "rabid day9 fans GOOOOO" seems like an entirely appropriate response. Haha.
I did comment on the article, saying that it's awful and posting the video that it "quotes".
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How is "Bitch" sexist? I just don't see it, I call my guy friends bitches all the time or people who are wusses.
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On September 18 2011 03:47 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 03:39 Mordiford wrote:On September 18 2011 03:25 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 03:23 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 18 2011 03:17 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 03:09 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 18 2011 02:59 probob wrote:On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote:
[Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Saying that sexism is ok because there is racism too, doesnt make any sense at all. And to be honest atheists for example dont get nearly as much shit as gay or black people. I mean those trolls are probably 14 year olds who hardly ever saw a black man in their life but somehow think its okay to use the nword just randomly. Just blows my mind how ignorant some people can be. I'm saying theres two consistent and rational options here: 1) Decry all the injustices and all the cruelty and lack of respect that comes with gaming, actively attempting to make it unacceptable or 2) Dont It's retarded to fixate on a specific demographic and say HA!! People are meaner to them by .2 margin over the next target who, themselves, are discriminated against 30% more than the average! Lets stop THAT and not give a rats ass about all the rest. Either grow a thicker skin or actually attempt to make gaming a civil affair. It's inconsistent and irrational to only try to better the experience for one group of people. On September 18 2011 03:06 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 02:58 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 18 2011 02:54 DoubleReed wrote:On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote:
[quote] Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Oh sure. That's true. But for the most part you can keep those kinds of details hidden. In the gaming community however it's fairly typical to use microphones and voice-chat, so this kind of behavior can prevent women from using their microphone/webcam because of male harassment. And that's bullshit. It's more of an issue because you can immediately identify someone as female by their voice. It's pretty telling that other people have to do similar things when you specifically write "hidden" into how they must behave. I highly- highly highly highly doubt that if a black was on skype and sounded at ALL like he was black, that he wouldnt be harassed viciously, or a gay person. It's not like gaming just so happens to suck in all those worst people in society, all the racists, all the anti-theists, all the homophobes and all the sexists. It's that its the internet and differentiation causes discrimination, for mere kicks. Hence you either keep it impersonal and consciously do so, and yes indeed for a lot of people [accents or whatever] that includes voice chat, or you roll with the punches and accept the issues that come with gaming. Then I'm going to have to completely disagree. There are plenty of women on WoW who don't use microphones because of harassment. Guys ask for pics and a/s/l and all that other "hilarious" stuff that's just annoying. It's really discouraging. The other things are actually really hard to tell just by voice-alone. Accents, race, and sexual orientation are completely ambiguous just by voice. Accents are ambiguous by voice...? Pretty sure by definition they arent. Plenty of gays talk in feminine mannerisms, or guys who do but arent gay will be called as such, and yes, it is possible to differentiate peoples race based on their voice. It's not infallible but its certainly doable. Well okay, how's this: I simply have never heard of anyone who didn't play with a microphone because of an accent. It's damaging to their enjoyment and gameplay to be afraid to use their mics because of their gender. It's damaging to OUR enjoyment and gameplay to have that stigma as well. Anyway, we can all agree the article is shit. So we can bond with that. Nor do I know anyone who hasnt used the mic because of their gender, so were even. Who gives a fuck about anecdotal experiences? I wasnt even saying you couldnt use a mic due to accent or that it was the same equivalent of a girl, I'm saying were all berated on a regular basis online, we all collectively deal with it. Women dont need special coddling because on occasion its slightly worse than others. I literally have no idea how it could be damaging to my enjoyment or gameplay to have people think gaming is sexist, I'm not even sure how thats possible? Damn that was an unsatisfactory pvp, I couldnt get the horrors of this shitty article out of my head! No, it's damaging to gameplay and enjoyment if people don't use their microphones. Like it actually affects the way you play a game and how fun the game is when you are actually talking to each other. Here's an actually decent article on sexism in gaming: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_17/109-OMG-Girlz-Dont-Exist-on-teh-Intarweb-1 That article is dumb to me as well, all these singular anecdotes don't mean shit because once again it's not exclusive to girls and I'm not sure it's even that much worse for girls. I can remember numerous times when everyone on vent has teased someone for their accent, the shit in their background, the sound of their voice... The girl's actual response to the shit in that article was retarded, if you have to break the anonymity that the internet provides you, you don't have to make a big fucking deal of it, it seems that she eventually showed them her picture and first of all the people in the IRC chat posted were idiots to the extreme and she was dumb for playing into their retardation. I've played with a dude and his fiance in DotA who were sick as fuck, she played awesome supports and gankers. I've run into women playing LoL who were treated perfectly fine. I've run into a handful of girls in HoN who didn't get shit, same goes for WoW. I've run into girls who have gotten some shit, I've run into brazilians who have gotten some shit, I've run into people with lisps who've gotten some shit. It's not exclusive to anyone. Okay. Again, I've never heard of that. That's fine then. Look I just don't want people to affect their gameplay because of assholes. I don't really understand your problem with her response. She didn't make a big deal of it...
I would say she didn't make that big of a deal out of it, but she did play into the imbeciles egging her on which was rather idiotic. Why wouldn't she just let it rest with, "Yes, I'm a girl, no not giving pics" and not respond to them if they brought it up again? It's actually not too difficult, and if it continues to be an issue, get new online friends.
Maybe my experience has just been different but in the groups of people I've met online, I've never seen someone get completely trashed on for being a girl, which is what I was emphasizing. All these articles are based on super specific anecdotes that don't match up at all with my experience and since I've seen people get shit on for other stuff, my response is quite simply, it's not exclusive, it's not a singular issue, focussing on one segment of a community to generalize doesn't do shit. Some people are assholes on the internet, that is all.
On September 18 2011 03:52 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 03:47 Mordiford wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 18 2011 03:38 Grumbels wrote:
Sexism isn't worth being upset about because other minorities are being insulted too? On September 18 2011 03:40 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 03:38 Grumbels wrote:
Sexism isn't worth being upset about because other minorities are being insulted too? Yeah, my lawn has weeds in it and so do my flowerbeds. The hedges need water too and the woodshed is falling apart. I'll just give up on keeping my yard nice. You're missing the point. Using your example, it would be like saying "My fucking flowerbeds have weeds, those fucking flowerbeds, man those flowerbeds" and trying to tackle the flowerbed issue but it doesn't do anything because you've still got fucking weeds all over the place and they keep coming back because you are singling out one aspect instead of focussing on the bigger issue. The bigger issue in this case, I have yet to see a proposition to actually tackle it, there's the simple, "Hey guys, stop being jerks okay!" which is awesome but gets you about as far as "Hey guys, stops being jerks to girls, okay!". Why blow this small part out of proportion when the issue isn't restricted to this one aspect and is an actual fundamental problem with any interaction online with the benefit of anonymity. Also, we're not talking about minorities, you can get ragged on for just about anything online. Singling out sexism as though it's a major issue is idiotic because it's a tiny part of something bigger. Quite simply, saying that people are dicks to girls on the internet is accurate but not telling the whole story which is simply, people are dicks on the internet. Your "bigger issue" isn't treatable unless you wish to wipe out humanity and start over again. You can't stop people from being mean, but you can remove ammunition by attacking specific instances.
This issue isn't treatable either because you can't get people to stop being dicks to girls on the internet if they're still being dicks. It's not really accomplishing anything, no fucking moron is going to go, "Well I'm going to continue to be a dick to the guy with a funny accent, the brazilian, the guy whose mom occasionally asks him about dinner in the background, and the guy with the squeeky voice, but I won't be a dick to girls". You can't tackle this issue without tacking THE issue, which you've said is untreatable. Well shit on my sandwich, looks like people are gonna be dicks on the internet.
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I am currently watching the iron ladies tourney, casted by ladies, and they are making frequent references to 'pole dancing', the 'pole dancing build'...looks like 'sexism vs females' is not exclusive to the males in the community...
EDIT <3s to all you Iron Ladies out there, and kudos for putting up with all the perceived/actual sexism, stay Iron!
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On September 18 2011 03:03 ChiffonAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 02:54 Maand wrote:
Every kind of wrongdoing, whether it is sexism, harassment and even dishonesty. And more. No matter towards whom it is aimed should be condemned.
Yes article is misquoted Day[9] and author should apologize in his next one. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of vile things about gamers. Don't go around saying "at least we are less sexist or that than those guys". No excuses.
If you see act of wrongdoing condemn it and don't commit ones yourself, that's the only way for community to improve itself.
Just be a better gamer!
Edit: Even if people do wrong to you, don't fall to their low to insult them back. Many people even in this thread seem to do it. Personal "thank you" to you. I have been part of A LOT of different communities and the majority have the same issue that you're addressing here. Accountability. It doesn't exist on the internet because this is a place where people are free to be absolutely vile with little to no consequences for just being generally horrible human beings. People aren't interested in "improvement". They just want to be free to be horrible to others because it feels good to do so.
I don't know why threads like this keep popping up. This isn't a problem with the gaming community, society in general still is and will always be prejudice. It's only for the self righteous feeling that goes along with it that people try to act like they never have prejudice thoughts. Dudes being creepy to girls is another issue, but that's more of an internet problem, anonymity and all that.
Unless threads like this are popping up and written by chick gamers, it's not so big a problem as you guys make it out to be. So far it seems to be mostly white knights putting these up while the girls are busy enjoying the attention they get at the cost of a few ignored creeps. Don't get offended so easily for other people, everyone on the internet has to deal with the assholes. about the whole "bitch" controversy, just be mindful of what situations you use it in and to who, same as any other insult.
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Btw, most sexism isn't even about being outright cruel and mean. It's about cultural patterns that are reinforced by both men and women which for instance in gaming culture results in women having to be defensive about their gender by default. For details see your basic university course about gender.
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On September 18 2011 03:22 Amlitzer wrote:
This is probably going to sound "sexist" to some, but I honestly don't care if women are incapable of growing a backbone and continue to see the gaming community as "sexist". Honestly, I would prefer if women never got into gaming on a massive scale; several of my other hobbies have been ruined in the past by such a demographic market shift. The ironic thing here is that the vast majority of these women are in no position to try and pass judgement on the "gaming community", and by making mass generalizations and labels against myself and my friend they just show how shallow they really are.
Great post, agreed.
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Aaargh! As a gamer (female) this article pisses me off and makes me nod my head in sad recognition in equal measure.
It's sad, and I hate to admit it, but Esports is the most sexist community I've ever been a part of. But even so, the VAST majority of gamers I meet are NOT sexist, and are infact lovely.
I could write a long response to this article, but I think a lot of parts are just designed to provoke drama and even shame in men, and I'm not going to bother, as it would take too long to write everything I want to. One part I hate in particular though is where Geordie refers to the article by Elly Hart.
Fuck off with your superiority Geordie! Stick your patronising sympathy up your ass - if Elly makes a mistake and says something stupid on the topic of women in gaming (I happen to agree that the comments about Alyssa and alcohol were inappropriate), maybe it's because she has flaws like everyone, not because she's woman and therefore a victim who can't form a real opinion because she's not strong enough to fight against the weight of sexist opinion - the opinion of a very small number of men in my experience.
I'm sorry that Day9 got dragged into this, and I guess it's a sad inevitability given his prominant position in this community. I, however, am a massive fan of Day9, and I definitely think he comes across as one of the guys most likely to fight for respect for women.
On a positive note, I contacted Jinx recently to see if I could get myself a Day9 t-shirt (they're only available in men's sizes, boo!) and I was pleased when they responded that a Day9 shirt for women will soon be available!!
Within a few weeks I will be proudly wearing my Day9 "Be a better gamer" t-shirt - in tribute to the guy who inspires me to be proud of my geekiness. It's thanks to the encouragement of guys like him that I find it possible to continue gaming in the face of the rare sexist idiot I come across.
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United States44403 Posts
On September 18 2011 03:33 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 00:48 Cel.erity wrote:On September 18 2011 00:44 IveReturned wrote:On September 18 2011 00:43 IndoorSpawningPool wrote:On September 18 2011 00:33 PooLarX wrote:
Pathetic attempt at calling out a very note worthy figure in our community for nothing more than more traffic for their website.
DO NOT EVEN CLICK THOSE LINKS, DO NOT READ THE ARTICLE, DO NOT GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. Best advice in this thread ↑↑ Yea mods please put it on the top of the discussion. I'll go ahead and spell it out again for all you double-digit post count people who don't bother to read an entire thread before spewing your bullshit. Geordie Tait does not work for Star City Games, he did not write this article for profit (probably made <$50 off of it and could have written anything else for that same amount of money), and is in no way attacking Day9 if you bothered to read literally two sentences beyond that particular quote. It was a misquote, it was a mistake, get over it. User was warned for this post Why the hell did celerity get warned for this?? I see some anger, some forum fighting (referring to reading before posting, and a terse statement of his point). This is no worse than most of the things that get posted here. So in an objective sense it seems okay. In terms of the discussion, celerity knows what he's talking about SINCE HE HAS WRITTEN FOR STARCITY BEFORE, and is correcting a HUGE misconception that a lot of knee-jerkers are reacting to. I'm not trying to argue with moderators because this is their site and it's their business, and they deemed it worthy of action. I bring it up because common forumgoers who know little to nothing about the MTG article culture should not see red text under the naysayer post as validation. It was a major and damaging mistake to misquote day9 like that. I hope Geordie edits the article. You know what would most likely lead to that? A crop of reasonable comments urging him to fix the misquote so subsequent readers don't get the wrong idea. We don't need a bunch of sc2 fans, many of whom would die for day9, rampaging the comments of an MTG article. Speaking of which, Kwark and everyone in the same vein are commenting with very little idea of the way MTG articles come about. "DONT GIVE THEM TRAFFIC!!" is a fad that might apply to things like kotaku articles, because they are part of a media company trying to turn a profit online. StarCityGames sells magic cards. They build popularity as a community site by having good articles from pros and up-and-comers. Then they sell a lot of cards. They also run tournaments now the last few years. They probably care very little about sheer traffic numbers because it amounts to very little of the revenue. Geordie's article is more of a blog than anything. It is certainly not journalism. You have to be looking for a fight outside the lines of context if you want to argue about that. Kwark, I respect you as a poster usually and I'm proud you were so quick in identifying and posting day9's true words. But I think it'd be great if you would rescind your earlier vitriol, cause you have little to no idea about the true character of that article and it's making a bad example for others to come in here and spew without having any experience in the MTG community when something might reflect poorly on everyone's hero day9. Celerity, please keep fighting the good fight responding constructively to people who are misguided or who have been mislead. Everyone else: read the whole article. Read all the comments under it. Read the other link in the OP. Read all the comments here. Then if something hasn't yet been said that you think people should see, write a constructive post! MTG articles are hardly meant to be public attention grabs, they are written for the MTG community (which is a pretty narrow place in the scheme of things), and you should respond accordingly. Don't stomp on top of a group of friends' discussion. If you want to respond to the article as a public statement, do so on the grounds of the discussion about gender inequity in gaming culture. There are some choice comments below the article that speak about how most of the backlash is centered on word choice, peripheral statements, asides, or other details. Very little of the criticism actually responds to the main thrust of the (lengthy) article. I don't see anything different here, which saddens me. Yes, we get it, there was a mistake with a day9 quote. You're all internet heroes for spotting it, great. Go be constructive and let Geordie know nicely that he should fix it so our sc2 community doesn't get bad rep. Then discuss gender equality which is an important thing to discuss... or else why are you here in the thread?? **Note: for an example of the comments I want you to see that discuss the nature of the negative responses, search for "Billy Moreno" on the page, he's a dozen or two comments down. [edit] fixed a parenthesis. I gtg but will respond when i'm back in a few hours. if anyone cares.
All post count elitism is warned on tl, it's not constructive and it discourages new posters. For some reason we have an unfortunate reputation for it despite the fact that it happens very rarely.
Unless day9 retold the story in a very different manner elsewhere I fail to see how this qualifies as a mistaken quote. It's not just inaccurate, it is wrong from the premise through every word right up to the conclusion. It is wrong in every way it could possibly be wrong. It doesn't even sound like it could be true, what teenager insults his girlfriend of a similar age by calling her young. To me this seems to be a classic example of nerdbait, picking something that is unanimously popular and attacking it in an obvious and clearly flawed way in order to generate interest. Whether it's for page hits for a site or just to get interest and notoriety for the article doesn't change that. People want what they write to be read. It seems far more likely that it's deliberate baiting than accidental incompetence to the degree that you change the words, meaning and context of a statement by someone.
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