On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote: [Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Saying that sexism is ok because there is racism too, doesnt make any sense at all. And to be honest atheists for example dont get nearly as much shit as gay or black people. I mean those trolls are probably 14 year olds who hardly ever saw a black man in their life but somehow think its okay to use the nword just randomly. Just blows my mind how ignorant some people can be.
I'm saying theres two consistent and rational options here:
1) Decry all the injustices and all the cruelty and lack of respect that comes with gaming, actively attempting to make it unacceptable or
2) Dont
It's retarded to fixate on a specific demographic and say HA!! People are meaner to them by .2 margin over the next target who, themselves, are discriminated against 30% more than the average! Lets stop THAT and not give a rats ass about all the rest.
Either grow a thicker skin or actually attempt to make gaming a civil affair. It's inconsistent and irrational to only try to better the experience for one group of people.
On September 18 2011 02:33 lizzard_warish wrote: These claims of sexism are so immature and pathetic. 1) "gaming culture" amounts to saying things like newbs and the like. All other elements of gaming do not differ in their interaction from regular culture, its just being done in a game. So claims of sexism are not unique to gaming except perhaps the condition that created it [if it exists], being a largely all male activity.
2) Its a fucking game and its anon for the most part, if people want to use insults or even berate somebody for being female, or black, or gay- even if they dont find these things negative- its going to happen and its hardly a meaningful thing. People are dicks on the internet? My mind is fucking blown.
3) Gendered insults do not imply a hate for a gender or viewing that gender as inferior, when I say bastard I'm not showing my latent hatred for people born out of wedlock.
4) Whats called sexism now a days by modern feminists isnt sexism at all, its in fact a man-eaters perception of it, where we dont glorify the great tree of womanhood or whatever crap there going on about now a days. So not really a charge from a particularly meaningful subset of our population. Fools are mad at us? Oh my.
5) It's not important even if there IS sexism in esports, because 99% of the people here are guys and the interest is and almost always will be confined to that demographic, no ones lives are crushed and its hardly the moral duty of random websites to carry on some social justice campaign.
Nah, there is definitely misogyny in gaming culture. It's more of an internet-phenomenon, but women are generally treated like crap in the gaming community. I definitely think there is an issue, but articles like these are just fucking awful.
But I agree on the other things. Gendered insults? Who the hell cares? Only guys are called "assholes" because I don't consider someone who uses the term a misandrist or whatever. It's like saying it's sexist to use He instead of She. The fact is that almost all english insults are gender-specific.
Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Oh sure. That's true. But for the most part you can keep those kinds of details hidden. In the gaming community however it's fairly typical to use microphones and voice-chat, so this kind of behavior can prevent women from using their microphone/webcam because of male harassment. And that's bullshit.
It's more of an issue because you can immediately identify someone as female by their voice.
It's pretty telling that other people have to do similar things when you specifically write "hidden" into how they must behave. I highly- highly highly highly doubt that if a black was on skype and sounded at ALL like he was black, that he wouldnt be harassed viciously, or a gay person. It's not like gaming just so happens to suck in all those worst people in society, all the racists, all the anti-theists, all the homophobes and all the sexists. It's that its the internet and differentiation causes discrimination, for mere kicks. Hence you either keep it impersonal and consciously do so, and yes indeed for a lot of people [accents or whatever] that includes voice chat, or you roll with the punches and accept the issues that come with gaming.
Then I'm going to have to completely disagree. There are plenty of women on WoW who don't use microphones because of harassment. Guys ask for pics and a/s/l and all that other "hilarious" stuff that's just annoying. It's really discouraging.
The other things are actually really hard to tell just by voice-alone. Accents, race, and sexual orientation are completely ambiguous just by voice.
Accents are ambiguous by voice...? Pretty sure by definition they arent. Plenty of gays talk in feminine mannerisms, or guys who do but arent gay will be called as such, and yes, it is possible to differentiate peoples race based on their voice. It's not infallible but its certainly doable.
Well okay, how's this: I simply have never heard of anyone who didn't play with a microphone because of an accent. Women not using microphones is real thing I have heard of. It's damaging to their enjoyment and gameplay to be afraid to use their mics because of their gender. It's damaging to OUR enjoyment and gameplay to have that stigma as well.
Anyway, we can all agree the article is shit. So we can bond with that.
On September 18 2011 03:12 Potling wrote: If women want to be "equal" and join male communities, then why shouldn't they also be "equal" in handling of mild jokes?
I hope esports remains a masculine realm, there aren't many left..
Are you serious? Are you not aware of the male domination of the sexes since like forever? Almost every realm is still ultimately dominated by men in business suits.
On September 18 2011 01:58 MichaelDonovan wrote: A lot of female gamers are sexist too. They are constantly saying things like "What? Scared to get beat by a girl?" and "Hey boys YES I AM a girl gamer, but I'm NOT here to find dates, ok guys?" in their online profiles. That doesn't help much. If female gamers want male gamers to be less sexist, they should stop making a big deal out of the fact that they are girls to begin with, and just play the game without mentioning it.
P.S. I don't mean to say that all female gamers behave this way, but it happens a lot.
You are absolutely correct. In fact women in the gaming community tend to segregate themselves a great deal more than the men do. Right as I right this there is an Iron Lady Champion Cup going on stream. Pretty much proves your point.
So basically, a few women have already learned how to survive in the gamer community and try to have a thick skin while they're at it. I don't like where that's headed, and cherry picking these examples is as bad as saying that black men use the "n" word on each other, therefore it's fair game.
Whoa now, if they use it on me, i can use it on them. All I'm sayin.
On September 18 2011 01:58 MichaelDonovan wrote: A lot of female gamers are sexist too. They are constantly saying things like "What? Scared to get beat by a girl?" and "Hey boys YES I AM a girl gamer, but I'm NOT here to find dates, ok guys?" in their online profiles. That doesn't help much. If female gamers want male gamers to be less sexist, they should stop making a big deal out of the fact that they are girls to begin with, and just play the game without mentioning it.
P.S. I don't mean to say that all female gamers behave this way, but it happens a lot.
You are absolutely correct. In fact women in the gaming community tend to segregate themselves a great deal more than the men do. Right as I right this there is an Iron Lady Champion Cup going on stream. Pretty much proves your point.
So basically, a few women have already learned how to survive in the gamer community and try to have a thick skin while they're at it. I don't like where that's headed, and cherry picking these examples is as bad as saying that black men use the "n" word on each other, therefore it's fair game.
They are surviving in the gamer community by separating themselves from it or rather creating their own society within it. I don't think that that is what I would call having thick skin. It is escaping into your own little click. Nowhere on the side bar will you see a tournament like IPL E Qual for men or NASL for men tournament. They are separating themselves from the male portion of the community and pointing out themselves that they are in fact, not just like us.
I'm sorry, but how often do men make fun of other men? I mean, every third thing that comes out of my mouth is some slur "against" men for humour. Women? Not that often. Every now and again, sure, but don't feel singled out. Take it like a man.
This is probably going to sound "sexist" to some, but I honestly don't care if women are incapable of growing a backbone and continue to see the gaming community as "sexist". Honestly, I would prefer if women never got into gaming on a massive scale; several of my other hobbies have been ruined in the past by such a demographic market shift. The ironic thing here is that the vast majority of these women are in no position to try and pass judgement on the "gaming community", and by making mass generalizations and labels against myself and my friend they just show how shallow they really are.
For those of you who don't know about "nerd-baiting" you should probably watch this video or simply understand that these articles are written to drag out the hits in the form of pitchforks. A view is a view for these websites and there is no way to get more of them than to insult a certain group of people.
There is nothing to see here, other than someone using incendiary writing to get views.
On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote: [Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Saying that sexism is ok because there is racism too, doesnt make any sense at all. And to be honest atheists for example dont get nearly as much shit as gay or black people. I mean those trolls are probably 14 year olds who hardly ever saw a black man in their life but somehow think its okay to use the nword just randomly. Just blows my mind how ignorant some people can be.
I'm saying theres two consistent and rational options here:
1) Decry all the injustices and all the cruelty and lack of respect that comes with gaming, actively attempting to make it unacceptable or
2) Dont
It's retarded to fixate on a specific demographic and say HA!! People are meaner to them by .2 margin over the next target who, themselves, are discriminated against 30% more than the average! Lets stop THAT and not give a rats ass about all the rest.
Either grow a thicker skin or actually attempt to make gaming a civil affair. It's inconsistent and irrational to only try to better the experience for one group of people.
On September 18 2011 03:06 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:58 lizzard_warish wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:54 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:41 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:33 lizzard_warish wrote: These claims of sexism are so immature and pathetic. 1) "gaming culture" amounts to saying things like newbs and the like. All other elements of gaming do not differ in their interaction from regular culture, its just being done in a game. So claims of sexism are not unique to gaming except perhaps the condition that created it [if it exists], being a largely all male activity.
2) Its a fucking game and its anon for the most part, if people want to use insults or even berate somebody for being female, or black, or gay- even if they dont find these things negative- its going to happen and its hardly a meaningful thing. People are dicks on the internet? My mind is fucking blown.
3) Gendered insults do not imply a hate for a gender or viewing that gender as inferior, when I say bastard I'm not showing my latent hatred for people born out of wedlock.
4) Whats called sexism now a days by modern feminists isnt sexism at all, its in fact a man-eaters perception of it, where we dont glorify the great tree of womanhood or whatever crap there going on about now a days. So not really a charge from a particularly meaningful subset of our population. Fools are mad at us? Oh my.
5) It's not important even if there IS sexism in esports, because 99% of the people here are guys and the interest is and almost always will be confined to that demographic, no ones lives are crushed and its hardly the moral duty of random websites to carry on some social justice campaign.
Nah, there is definitely misogyny in gaming culture. It's more of an internet-phenomenon, but women are generally treated like crap in the gaming community. I definitely think there is an issue, but articles like these are just fucking awful.
But I agree on the other things. Gendered insults? Who the hell cares? Only guys are called "assholes" because I don't consider someone who uses the term a misandrist or whatever. It's like saying it's sexist to use He instead of She. The fact is that almost all english insults are gender-specific.
Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Oh sure. That's true. But for the most part you can keep those kinds of details hidden. In the gaming community however it's fairly typical to use microphones and voice-chat, so this kind of behavior can prevent women from using their microphone/webcam because of male harassment. And that's bullshit.
It's more of an issue because you can immediately identify someone as female by their voice.
It's pretty telling that other people have to do similar things when you specifically write "hidden" into how they must behave. I highly- highly highly highly doubt that if a black was on skype and sounded at ALL like he was black, that he wouldnt be harassed viciously, or a gay person. It's not like gaming just so happens to suck in all those worst people in society, all the racists, all the anti-theists, all the homophobes and all the sexists. It's that its the internet and differentiation causes discrimination, for mere kicks. Hence you either keep it impersonal and consciously do so, and yes indeed for a lot of people [accents or whatever] that includes voice chat, or you roll with the punches and accept the issues that come with gaming.
Then I'm going to have to completely disagree. There are plenty of women on WoW who don't use microphones because of harassment. Guys ask for pics and a/s/l and all that other "hilarious" stuff that's just annoying. It's really discouraging.
The other things are actually really hard to tell just by voice-alone. Accents, race, and sexual orientation are completely ambiguous just by voice.
Accents are ambiguous by voice...? Pretty sure by definition they arent. Plenty of gays talk in feminine mannerisms, or guys who do but arent gay will be called as such, and yes, it is possible to differentiate peoples race based on their voice. It's not infallible but its certainly doable.
Well okay, how's this: I simply have never heard of anyone who didn't play with a microphone because of an accent. It's damaging to their enjoyment and gameplay to be afraid to use their mics because of their gender. It's damaging to OUR enjoyment and gameplay to have that stigma as well.
Anyway, we can all agree the article is shit. So we can bond with that.
Nor do I know anyone who hasnt used the mic because of their gender, so were even. Who gives a fuck about anecdotal experiences? I wasnt even saying you couldnt use a mic due to accent or that it was the same equivalent of a girl, I'm saying were all berated on a regular basis online, we all collectively deal with it. Women dont need special coddling because on occasion its slightly worse than others.
I literally have no idea how it could be damaging to my enjoyment or gameplay to have people think gaming is sexist, I'm not even sure how thats possible? Damn that was an unsatisfactory pvp, I couldnt get the horrors of this shitty article out of my head!
On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote: [Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Saying that sexism is ok because there is racism too, doesnt make any sense at all. And to be honest atheists for example dont get nearly as much shit as gay or black people. I mean those trolls are probably 14 year olds who hardly ever saw a black man in their life but somehow think its okay to use the nword just randomly. Just blows my mind how ignorant some people can be.
I'm saying theres two consistent and rational options here:
1) Decry all the injustices and all the cruelty and lack of respect that comes with gaming, actively attempting to make it unacceptable or
2) Dont
It's retarded to fixate on a specific demographic and say HA!! People are meaner to them by .2 margin over the next target who, themselves, are discriminated against 30% more than the average! Lets stop THAT and not give a rats ass about all the rest.
Either grow a thicker skin or actually attempt to make gaming a civil affair. It's inconsistent and irrational to only try to better the experience for one group of people.
On September 18 2011 03:06 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:58 lizzard_warish wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:54 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:41 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:33 lizzard_warish wrote: These claims of sexism are so immature and pathetic. 1) "gaming culture" amounts to saying things like newbs and the like. All other elements of gaming do not differ in their interaction from regular culture, its just being done in a game. So claims of sexism are not unique to gaming except perhaps the condition that created it [if it exists], being a largely all male activity.
2) Its a fucking game and its anon for the most part, if people want to use insults or even berate somebody for being female, or black, or gay- even if they dont find these things negative- its going to happen and its hardly a meaningful thing. People are dicks on the internet? My mind is fucking blown.
3) Gendered insults do not imply a hate for a gender or viewing that gender as inferior, when I say bastard I'm not showing my latent hatred for people born out of wedlock.
4) Whats called sexism now a days by modern feminists isnt sexism at all, its in fact a man-eaters perception of it, where we dont glorify the great tree of womanhood or whatever crap there going on about now a days. So not really a charge from a particularly meaningful subset of our population. Fools are mad at us? Oh my.
5) It's not important even if there IS sexism in esports, because 99% of the people here are guys and the interest is and almost always will be confined to that demographic, no ones lives are crushed and its hardly the moral duty of random websites to carry on some social justice campaign.
Nah, there is definitely misogyny in gaming culture. It's more of an internet-phenomenon, but women are generally treated like crap in the gaming community. I definitely think there is an issue, but articles like these are just fucking awful.
But I agree on the other things. Gendered insults? Who the hell cares? Only guys are called "assholes" because I don't consider someone who uses the term a misandrist or whatever. It's like saying it's sexist to use He instead of She. The fact is that almost all english insults are gender-specific.
Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Oh sure. That's true. But for the most part you can keep those kinds of details hidden. In the gaming community however it's fairly typical to use microphones and voice-chat, so this kind of behavior can prevent women from using their microphone/webcam because of male harassment. And that's bullshit.
It's more of an issue because you can immediately identify someone as female by their voice.
It's pretty telling that other people have to do similar things when you specifically write "hidden" into how they must behave. I highly- highly highly highly doubt that if a black was on skype and sounded at ALL like he was black, that he wouldnt be harassed viciously, or a gay person. It's not like gaming just so happens to suck in all those worst people in society, all the racists, all the anti-theists, all the homophobes and all the sexists. It's that its the internet and differentiation causes discrimination, for mere kicks. Hence you either keep it impersonal and consciously do so, and yes indeed for a lot of people [accents or whatever] that includes voice chat, or you roll with the punches and accept the issues that come with gaming.
Then I'm going to have to completely disagree. There are plenty of women on WoW who don't use microphones because of harassment. Guys ask for pics and a/s/l and all that other "hilarious" stuff that's just annoying. It's really discouraging.
The other things are actually really hard to tell just by voice-alone. Accents, race, and sexual orientation are completely ambiguous just by voice.
Accents are ambiguous by voice...? Pretty sure by definition they arent. Plenty of gays talk in feminine mannerisms, or guys who do but arent gay will be called as such, and yes, it is possible to differentiate peoples race based on their voice. It's not infallible but its certainly doable.
Well okay, how's this: I simply have never heard of anyone who didn't play with a microphone because of an accent. It's damaging to their enjoyment and gameplay to be afraid to use their mics because of their gender. It's damaging to OUR enjoyment and gameplay to have that stigma as well.
You are right. That is not accent or something else, they claim they re girls but "maybe" they arent. People have seen so many "girls" in mmorpg games that they started bashing and ignoring people that claim they are girls. I used to claim that I was "29" but I wasn't. Thats why I didnt use microphones.
On September 18 2011 03:04 Ansinjunger wrote: I just read through the article, and I don't see it actually suggesting that the Day9 quote is from daily #100. It merely mentions that daily afterward as a reason we like Sean. The "g.g." has been brought up a couple times since then, and frankly it seems likely that Day9 said that actual quote in a more recent daily, but I don't have 40 hours to search through them all. It's just sad people are yet again jumping the gun. If you wanna disprove the quote, you have more research to do. At the same time, it would be much easier if we could just find out from Geordie Tait where he got that, or why.
And about that article, I found myself agreeing with the majority of what else it said. The fact is, people are not considerate of others' feelings, and it's especially true between the sexes, and more so on the male side of things, imo. The article he spoke about in section #8 by Todd Anderson was particularly sad, the gamer who guilt tripped his wife into getting what he wanted. There is a lot of truth about the difference between male and female fears of each other, which strangely, makes the Dilbert author somewhat validated in his judgment of males, not that it makes it okay.
You don't discredit quotes through searching through 40 hours of material. Obviously this young bitch's gone been to college, because you should always always mark sources for your quotes, otherwise they're invalid.
If anything he said dumb bitch.. Young bitch doesn't even make sence. "Bitch" in general is afaik considered a mild swear word unless you're born in the 18th century -.-'
Personally I just stop caring when people start to lie to convince people that they're right.
On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote: [Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Saying that sexism is ok because there is racism too, doesnt make any sense at all. And to be honest atheists for example dont get nearly as much shit as gay or black people. I mean those trolls are probably 14 year olds who hardly ever saw a black man in their life but somehow think its okay to use the nword just randomly. Just blows my mind how ignorant some people can be.
I'm saying theres two consistent and rational options here:
1) Decry all the injustices and all the cruelty and lack of respect that comes with gaming, actively attempting to make it unacceptable or
2) Dont
It's retarded to fixate on a specific demographic and say HA!! People are meaner to them by .2 margin over the next target who, themselves, are discriminated against 30% more than the average! Lets stop THAT and not give a rats ass about all the rest.
Either grow a thicker skin or actually attempt to make gaming a civil affair. It's inconsistent and irrational to only try to better the experience for one group of people.
On September 18 2011 03:06 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:58 lizzard_warish wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:54 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:41 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:33 lizzard_warish wrote: These claims of sexism are so immature and pathetic. 1) "gaming culture" amounts to saying things like newbs and the like. All other elements of gaming do not differ in their interaction from regular culture, its just being done in a game. So claims of sexism are not unique to gaming except perhaps the condition that created it [if it exists], being a largely all male activity.
2) Its a fucking game and its anon for the most part, if people want to use insults or even berate somebody for being female, or black, or gay- even if they dont find these things negative- its going to happen and its hardly a meaningful thing. People are dicks on the internet? My mind is fucking blown.
3) Gendered insults do not imply a hate for a gender or viewing that gender as inferior, when I say bastard I'm not showing my latent hatred for people born out of wedlock.
4) Whats called sexism now a days by modern feminists isnt sexism at all, its in fact a man-eaters perception of it, where we dont glorify the great tree of womanhood or whatever crap there going on about now a days. So not really a charge from a particularly meaningful subset of our population. Fools are mad at us? Oh my.
5) It's not important even if there IS sexism in esports, because 99% of the people here are guys and the interest is and almost always will be confined to that demographic, no ones lives are crushed and its hardly the moral duty of random websites to carry on some social justice campaign.
Nah, there is definitely misogyny in gaming culture. It's more of an internet-phenomenon, but women are generally treated like crap in the gaming community. I definitely think there is an issue, but articles like these are just fucking awful.
But I agree on the other things. Gendered insults? Who the hell cares? Only guys are called "assholes" because I don't consider someone who uses the term a misandrist or whatever. It's like saying it's sexist to use He instead of She. The fact is that almost all english insults are gender-specific.
Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Oh sure. That's true. But for the most part you can keep those kinds of details hidden. In the gaming community however it's fairly typical to use microphones and voice-chat, so this kind of behavior can prevent women from using their microphone/webcam because of male harassment. And that's bullshit.
It's more of an issue because you can immediately identify someone as female by their voice.
It's pretty telling that other people have to do similar things when you specifically write "hidden" into how they must behave. I highly- highly highly highly doubt that if a black was on skype and sounded at ALL like he was black, that he wouldnt be harassed viciously, or a gay person. It's not like gaming just so happens to suck in all those worst people in society, all the racists, all the anti-theists, all the homophobes and all the sexists. It's that its the internet and differentiation causes discrimination, for mere kicks. Hence you either keep it impersonal and consciously do so, and yes indeed for a lot of people [accents or whatever] that includes voice chat, or you roll with the punches and accept the issues that come with gaming.
Then I'm going to have to completely disagree. There are plenty of women on WoW who don't use microphones because of harassment. Guys ask for pics and a/s/l and all that other "hilarious" stuff that's just annoying. It's really discouraging.
The other things are actually really hard to tell just by voice-alone. Accents, race, and sexual orientation are completely ambiguous just by voice.
Accents are ambiguous by voice...? Pretty sure by definition they arent. Plenty of gays talk in feminine mannerisms, or guys who do but arent gay will be called as such, and yes, it is possible to differentiate peoples race based on their voice. It's not infallible but its certainly doable.
Well okay, how's this: I simply have never heard of anyone who didn't play with a microphone because of an accent. It's damaging to their enjoyment and gameplay to be afraid to use their mics because of their gender. It's damaging to OUR enjoyment and gameplay to have that stigma as well.
Anyway, we can all agree the article is shit. So we can bond with that.
Nor do I know anyone who hasnt used the mic because of their gender, so were even. Who gives a fuck about anecdotal experiences? I wasnt even saying you couldnt use a mic due to accent or that it was the same equivalent of a girl, I'm saying were all berated on a regular basis online, we all collectively deal with it. Women dont need special coddling because on occasion its slightly worse than others.
I literally have no idea how it could be damaging to my enjoyment or gameplay to have people think gaming is sexist, I'm not even sure how thats possible? Damn that was an unsatisfactory pvp, I couldnt get the horrors of this shitty article out of my head!
No, it's damaging to gameplay and enjoyment if people don't use their microphones. Like it actually affects the way you play a game and how fun the game is when you are actually talking to each other.
On September 18 2011 02:54 Maand wrote: Every kind of wrongdoing, whether it is sexism, harassment and even dishonesty. And more. No matter towards whom it is aimed should be condemned.
Yes article is misquoted Day[9] and author should apologize in his next one. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of vile things about gamers. Don't go around saying "at least we are less sexist or that than those guys". No excuses.
If you see act of wrongdoing condemn it and don't commit ones yourself, that's the only way for community to improve itself.
Just be a better gamer!
Edit: Even if people do wrong to you, don't fall to their low to insult them back. Many people even in this thread seem to do it.
Yeah, but shit like this isn't really going to change anything. No one in this thread or any thread is saying it's totally cool to be a colossal dick, they are stating the simple fact that there are always going to be colossal dicks on the internet because you can be anonymous. That is just what it fucking is.
Be a better gamer, yeah... To the people who are already not being colossal assholes, they're likely going to continue not being jerks. The people who are completely idiotic aren't going to go, "Hey guys, Maand said we should be a better gamer, let's do it". I don't see how these stupid articles really accomplish anything. Treat women better in gaming? You said quite simply, we should treat everyone better and that is why singling out stupid shit isn't worthwhile because it doesn't tackle the major issue or people being dicks in general.
So quite simply, the author tries to say, "You guys are dicks to girls" where the actuality is, "Some of you guys are dicks". Also, there is no need for a "to girls" in there, because as I mentioned it goes both ways, women get more positive attention than a male in a comparable role, and they're likely to get a little more negative attention as well.
On September 18 2011 01:58 MichaelDonovan wrote: A lot of female gamers are sexist too. They are constantly saying things like "What? Scared to get beat by a girl?" and "Hey boys YES I AM a girl gamer, but I'm NOT here to find dates, ok guys?" in their online profiles. That doesn't help much. If female gamers want male gamers to be less sexist, they should stop making a big deal out of the fact that they are girls to begin with, and just play the game without mentioning it.
P.S. I don't mean to say that all female gamers behave this way, but it happens a lot.
You are absolutely correct. In fact women in the gaming community tend to segregate themselves a great deal more than the men do. Right as I right this there is an Iron Lady Champion Cup going on stream. Pretty much proves your point.
So basically, a few women have already learned how to survive in the gamer community and try to have a thick skin while they're at it. I don't like where that's headed, and cherry picking these examples is as bad as saying that black men use the "n" word on each other, therefore it's fair game.
They are surviving in the gamer community by separating themselves from it or rather creating their own society within it. I don't think that that is what I would call having thick skin. It is escaping into your own little click. Nowhere on the side bar will you see a tournament like IPL E Qual for men or NASL for men tournament. They are separating themselves from the male portion of the community and pointing out themselves that they are in fact, not just like us.
Well, imo, they're drawing attention to themselves more than excluding men if they create a ladies only tournament. Megumix's stream is on TL along with all the other unfeatured streamers. I say they are having a thicker skin by being able to taunt guys using the traditional sexist "lose to a girl" to their advantage, thus playing the system already in place. I agree that's not entirely proper but it's silly to blast women for simply adapting to male stereotypes and using them to their advantage. An eye for an eye, if you will.
Try to forgive Day[9] for the above quote if you can find the generosity in your little heart—like most male gamers, he doesn't understand that gendered insults are wrong and off-putting to women.
Isn't that nice of them? That they're willing to forgive him for saying those terrible things because he's just too stupid and unfamiliar with women to know what he's doing. Never mind the fact that he didn't say it, the person who said those words is the self righteous, arrogant colossal cock who wrote the argument.
^ What KwarK said.
My view on the topic is this, people need to stop trying to treat two different things the same. A circle isn't a square, up isn't down and a cat isn't a dog. Now, before anyone even jumps on me, I'm not saying people should be deliberately treated worse than another because their sex under any circumstances, but just because a girl may go, "Ha, you got beaten by a girl at gaming." doesn't all of a sudden mean the universe implodes, it doesn't even mean there is anything wrong with that, people just like to go, "Hey, I think there's something wrong with that and I'm right!". Well, have fun with that train of thought, because I have literally not seen a single other person ever before this thread (not even kidding) who took the word, "bitch" to be an attempt at being sexist.
If anything it's the "female" only leagues that are perpetuating real sexism (not the, "I say the word bitch" sexism that isn't really sexism at all), when male leagues are fully willing to accept them. SC isn't the only area this happens, there are lots of real world sports where the "regular" league will accept women but they instead make their own league that IS female only and participate in that exclusively.
Also, regarding the, "N" word although slightly OT it was brought up and I feel the need to link this every time it happens because it mirrors my feelings (NSFW: Debo on the "N" word and cursing. ). Now of course there are some people who will disagree, but intent is 100% of what matters to me and the people I hang out with, if you disagree I respect that but if someone says something without the intent to harm and you choose to get offended even though they meant nothing negative from saying it then that's a you issue.
Edit: Also, I've interacted with more than one person who hasn't used their microphone because they had an accent in response to the person who said it doesn't happen, it does.
On September 18 2011 00:43 IndoorSpawningPool wrote:
On September 18 2011 00:33 PooLarX wrote: Pathetic attempt at calling out a very note worthy figure in our community for nothing more than more traffic for their website.
DO NOT EVEN CLICK THOSE LINKS, DO NOT READ THE ARTICLE, DO NOT GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT.
Best advice in this thread ↑↑
Yea mods please put it on the top of the discussion.
I'll go ahead and spell it out again for all you double-digit post count people who don't bother to read an entire thread before spewing your bullshit. Geordie Tait does not work for Star City Games, he did not write this article for profit (probably made <$50 off of it and could have written anything else for that same amount of money), and is in no way attacking Day9 if you bothered to read literally two sentences beyond that particular quote.
It was a misquote, it was a mistake, get over it.
User was warned for this post
Why the hell did celerity get warned for this?? I see some anger, some forum fighting (referring to reading before posting, and a terse statement of his point). This is no worse than most of the things that get posted here. So in an objective sense it seems okay. In terms of the discussion, celerity knows what he's talking about SINCE HE HAS WRITTEN FOR STARCITY BEFORE, and is correcting a HUGE misconception that a lot of knee-jerkers are reacting to. I'm not trying to argue with moderators because this is their site and it's their business, and they deemed it worthy of action. I bring it up because common forumgoers who know little to nothing about the MTG article culture should not see red text under the naysayer post as validation.
It was a major and damaging mistake to misquote day9 like that. I hope Geordie edits the article. You know what would most likely lead to that? A crop of reasonable comments urging him to fix the misquote so subsequent readers don't get the wrong idea. We don't need a bunch of sc2 fans, many of whom would die for day9, rampaging the comments of an MTG article.
Speaking of which, Kwark and everyone in the same vein are commenting with very little idea of the way MTG articles come about. "DONT GIVE THEM TRAFFIC!!" is a fad that might apply to things like kotaku articles, because they are part of a media company trying to turn a profit online. StarCityGames sells magic cards. They build popularity as a community site by having good articles from pros and up-and-comers. Then they sell a lot of cards. They also run tournaments now the last few years. They probably care very little about sheer traffic numbers because it amounts to very little of the revenue.
Geordie's article is more of a blog than anything. It is certainly not journalism. You have to be looking for a fight outside the lines of context if you want to argue about that.
Kwark, I respect you as a poster usually and I'm proud you were so quick in identifying and posting day9's true words. But I think it'd be great if you would rescind your earlier vitriol, cause you have little to no idea about the true character of that article and it's making a bad example for others to come in here and spew without having any experience in the MTG community when something might reflect poorly on everyone's hero day9.
Celerity, please keep fighting the good fight responding constructively to people who are misguided or who have been mislead.
Everyone else: read the whole article. Read all the comments under it. Read the other link in the OP. Read all the comments here. Then if something hasn't yet been said that you think people should see, write a constructive post! MTG articles are hardly meant to be public attention grabs, they are written for the MTG community (which is a pretty narrow place in the scheme of things), and you should respond accordingly. Don't stomp on top of a group of friends' discussion.
If you want to respond to the article as a public statement, do so on the grounds of the discussion about gender inequity in gaming culture. There are some choice comments below the article that speak about how most of the backlash is centered on word choice, peripheral statements, asides, or other details. Very little of the criticism actually responds to the main thrust of the (lengthy) article. I don't see anything different here, which saddens me. Yes, we get it, there was a mistake with a day9 quote. You're all internet heroes for spotting it, great. Go be constructive and let Geordie know nicely that he should fix it so our sc2 community doesn't get bad rep. Then discuss gender equality which is an important thing to discuss... or else why are you here in the thread??
**Note: for an example of the comments I want you to see that discuss the nature of the negative responses, search for "Billy Moreno" on the page, he's a dozen or two comments down.
[edit] fixed a parenthesis. I gtg but will respond when i'm back in a few hours. if anyone cares.
@Mordiford: Sexism isn't worth being upset about because other minorities are being insulted too?
To me that just sounds like belittling those who strive to create a more healthy atmosphere for female gamers. A lot of seemingly nice people buy into misogynist beliefs and would genuinely change their behavior if only it was pointed out to them. You -have- to get into specifics here, since there is always a lot of context associated with it that makes people think they are on the right side. (or perhaps they just accepted convention and didn't think at all) By taking a stand at issues of sexism you can actually make a useful contribution to change things.
On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote: [Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Saying that sexism is ok because there is racism too, doesnt make any sense at all. And to be honest atheists for example dont get nearly as much shit as gay or black people. I mean those trolls are probably 14 year olds who hardly ever saw a black man in their life but somehow think its okay to use the nword just randomly. Just blows my mind how ignorant some people can be.
I'm saying theres two consistent and rational options here:
1) Decry all the injustices and all the cruelty and lack of respect that comes with gaming, actively attempting to make it unacceptable or
2) Dont
It's retarded to fixate on a specific demographic and say HA!! People are meaner to them by .2 margin over the next target who, themselves, are discriminated against 30% more than the average! Lets stop THAT and not give a rats ass about all the rest.
Either grow a thicker skin or actually attempt to make gaming a civil affair. It's inconsistent and irrational to only try to better the experience for one group of people.
On September 18 2011 03:06 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:58 lizzard_warish wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:54 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:47 lizzard_warish wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:41 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 18 2011 02:33 lizzard_warish wrote: These claims of sexism are so immature and pathetic. 1) "gaming culture" amounts to saying things like newbs and the like. All other elements of gaming do not differ in their interaction from regular culture, its just being done in a game. So claims of sexism are not unique to gaming except perhaps the condition that created it [if it exists], being a largely all male activity.
2) Its a fucking game and its anon for the most part, if people want to use insults or even berate somebody for being female, or black, or gay- even if they dont find these things negative- its going to happen and its hardly a meaningful thing. People are dicks on the internet? My mind is fucking blown.
3) Gendered insults do not imply a hate for a gender or viewing that gender as inferior, when I say bastard I'm not showing my latent hatred for people born out of wedlock.
4) Whats called sexism now a days by modern feminists isnt sexism at all, its in fact a man-eaters perception of it, where we dont glorify the great tree of womanhood or whatever crap there going on about now a days. So not really a charge from a particularly meaningful subset of our population. Fools are mad at us? Oh my.
5) It's not important even if there IS sexism in esports, because 99% of the people here are guys and the interest is and almost always will be confined to that demographic, no ones lives are crushed and its hardly the moral duty of random websites to carry on some social justice campaign.
Nah, there is definitely misogyny in gaming culture. It's more of an internet-phenomenon, but women are generally treated like crap in the gaming community. I definitely think there is an issue, but articles like these are just fucking awful.
But I agree on the other things. Gendered insults? Who the hell cares? Only guys are called "assholes" because I don't consider someone who uses the term a misandrist or whatever. It's like saying it's sexist to use He instead of She. The fact is that almost all english insults are gender-specific.
Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?
I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
Oh sure. That's true. But for the most part you can keep those kinds of details hidden. In the gaming community however it's fairly typical to use microphones and voice-chat, so this kind of behavior can prevent women from using their microphone/webcam because of male harassment. And that's bullshit.
It's more of an issue because you can immediately identify someone as female by their voice.
It's pretty telling that other people have to do similar things when you specifically write "hidden" into how they must behave. I highly- highly highly highly doubt that if a black was on skype and sounded at ALL like he was black, that he wouldnt be harassed viciously, or a gay person. It's not like gaming just so happens to suck in all those worst people in society, all the racists, all the anti-theists, all the homophobes and all the sexists. It's that its the internet and differentiation causes discrimination, for mere kicks. Hence you either keep it impersonal and consciously do so, and yes indeed for a lot of people [accents or whatever] that includes voice chat, or you roll with the punches and accept the issues that come with gaming.
Then I'm going to have to completely disagree. There are plenty of women on WoW who don't use microphones because of harassment. Guys ask for pics and a/s/l and all that other "hilarious" stuff that's just annoying. It's really discouraging.
The other things are actually really hard to tell just by voice-alone. Accents, race, and sexual orientation are completely ambiguous just by voice.
Accents are ambiguous by voice...? Pretty sure by definition they arent. Plenty of gays talk in feminine mannerisms, or guys who do but arent gay will be called as such, and yes, it is possible to differentiate peoples race based on their voice. It's not infallible but its certainly doable.
Well okay, how's this: I simply have never heard of anyone who didn't play with a microphone because of an accent. It's damaging to their enjoyment and gameplay to be afraid to use their mics because of their gender. It's damaging to OUR enjoyment and gameplay to have that stigma as well.
Anyway, we can all agree the article is shit. So we can bond with that.
Nor do I know anyone who hasnt used the mic because of their gender, so were even. Who gives a fuck about anecdotal experiences? I wasnt even saying you couldnt use a mic due to accent or that it was the same equivalent of a girl, I'm saying were all berated on a regular basis online, we all collectively deal with it. Women dont need special coddling because on occasion its slightly worse than others.
I literally have no idea how it could be damaging to my enjoyment or gameplay to have people think gaming is sexist, I'm not even sure how thats possible? Damn that was an unsatisfactory pvp, I couldnt get the horrors of this shitty article out of my head!
No, it's damaging to gameplay and enjoyment if people don't use their microphones. Like it actually affects the way you play a game and how fun the game is when you are actually talking to each other.
That article is dumb to me as well, all these singular anecdotes don't mean shit because once again it's not exclusive to girls and I'm not sure it's even that much worse for girls. I can remember numerous times when everyone on vent has teased someone for their accent, the shit in their background, the sound of their voice... The girl's actual response to the shit in that article was retarded, if you have to break the anonymity that the internet provides you, you don't have to make a big fucking deal of it, it seems that she eventually showed them her picture and first of all the people in the IRC chat posted were idiots to the extreme and she was dumb for playing into their retardation.
I've played with a dude and his fiance in DotA who were sick as fuck, she played awesome supports and gankers. I've run into women playing LoL who were treated perfectly fine. I've run into a handful of girls in HoN who didn't get shit, same goes for WoW. I've run into girls who have gotten some shit, I've run into brazilians who have gotten some shit, I've run into people with lisps who've gotten some shit. It's not exclusive to anyone.
On September 18 2011 03:38 Grumbels wrote: Sexism isn't worth being upset about because other minorities are being insulted too?
Yeah, my lawn has weeds in it and so do my flowerbeds. The hedges need water too and the woodshed is falling apart. I'll just give up on keeping my yard nice.
EPT
