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Sexism in gaming culture - Page 7

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MichaelDonovan
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1453 Posts
September 17 2011 16:58 GMT
#121
A lot of female gamers are sexist too. They are constantly saying things like "What? Scared to get beat by a girl?" and "Hey boys YES I AM a girl gamer, but I'm NOT here to find dates, ok guys?" in their online profiles. That doesn't help much. If female gamers want male gamers to be less sexist, they should stop making a big deal out of the fact that they are girls to begin with, and just play the game without mentioning it.

P.S. I don't mean to say that all female gamers behave this way, but it happens a lot.
Mordiford
Profile Joined April 2011
4448 Posts
September 17 2011 16:59 GMT
#122
On September 18 2011 01:48 Truedot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 00:01 lorkac wrote:
The gaming culture is centralized in already highly misogynistic societies, the US and Europe. How can't there be sexism in gaming? Add to that the hypermasculine sports aura wherein we enjoy feminizing weakness such as calling the opposing players "our bitch" as well as determining cowardice as being "pussies" we end up with a culture that glorifies the masculine and attacks what we conceive to be feminine ideals.

Esports is very very misogynistic.



there are very clear, documented gender differences in how the brain works to process information, and the size of different parts of the brain. It has been since the beginning of time since women and men are considered inherently different. I used to have trouble with my female friends, understanding their motivation, when they do things most people I know that are male would never do, or do like I would under the same circumstances. There's even been books written on the subject, the whole mars/venus thing.

I know you want equality, but does that mean we all have to be some genderless homogenized mass?

And how can you say e-sports is misogynistic? People heavily into video games tend to go over the top to treat females well.

Also, apparently calling people bitch and pussy attacks feminine ideals, by your statement. what? you seem like the sexist one here.

Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 01:46 Papulatus wrote:
There's no way to take an article seriously after he accuses Day9 of being sexist, takes his quote wrong, and takes the quote out of context.

If a female gamer came onto the SC2 scene and was competitive with other male progamers, she would be accepted by the community. The problem is that there are no women who can compete with men.



well, while there has been study done that shows that automated functioning of reaction male vs female is in favor of male, as females consistently have slightly longer reaction delay time, females can multitask better than males... so to say they can't compete is wrong. they just need to hone their advantages to make up for their lack, same as males.


In regards to the end of your post, that may be true and their advanced multitasking may be able to make up for a lack of other comparable skills, but the fact of the matter is we haven't seen an excellent female pro-gamer yet. I may be because there aren't that many in the scene, but not a single one has been able to compete at the highest level of play, further segregation of the scene is being scene as well as affirmative action for women(which is sexist in regards to gaming, because you don't need a leg up if you're good).

In regards to sexism, it has been for lack of a better way to put it, both beneficial and detrimental to women and I honestly think it evens the fuck out. You get tons of cases of affirmative action and women getting tons of attention, particularly if they're cute and largely because women get fast tracked they end up fucking up because they aren't really ready for roles they're put into and gamers get pissed when they see someone fumbling. Once again, this shit isn't exclusive to women at fucking all, nor is it generally more pronounced in regards to women. When HD, PainUser, Moletrap, DoA or anyone does a mediocre job, they get chewed out, when this occurs with women, people pull the sexism card, it's actually pretty fucking consistent.

Also, then there's the case of insults being geared directly towards them being women and once again, this generally goes both ways. If a woman gets fast-tracked because she's a girl in the community and then gets shit for failing that brings up her gender, it's not right, but it's consistent. You get more positive attention, you get more negative attention, focus on whichever you like.
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-17 17:03:06
September 17 2011 17:00 GMT
#123
Kwark talking about "dick"

"My lips enjoy the shape of it as it rolls off the tongue."

See anyone can misquote, it's easy, but just as in this case. Not excusable and can lead someone to thinking inappropriately about the person. Day9 is not sexist and should not be portrayed in such a way.

+ Show Spoiler +

On September 18 2011 01:36 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 01:31 Demonace34 wrote:
I'm also going through a dick stage and I'm loving every minute of it KwarK! (hope someone gets that reference)

To clarify, I don't like dicks sexually. It's just dick is my friendly insult of choice right now. My lips enjoy the shape of it as it rolls off the tongue.



:)
Truedot
Profile Joined August 2011
444 Posts
September 17 2011 17:00 GMT
#124
On September 18 2011 01:56 sc14s wrote:
The real issue is people mistake the words we use for older and (to us) outdated meanings behind the word. when i say for example "what a bitch" when im getting cheesed by a 6 pool to myself it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone of the female gender. the connotation and meaning of the word has changed over time and i think some people (namely idiots that write articles like this) need to learn the differences in culture.

just my 2 cents


so what about the word "fag" then. has its meaning changed or is it just ignorant people that use it without understanding the place it comes from. its one of those words that has changed wildly in just a hundred or so years. Once a word becomes connected to something extremely negative, it seems to end its life cycle as a word that can be renewed.

I used to spend my time not caring about people's language in chat. Until I got hit by blizz. Now I spend my time instigating people to verbal abusive levels, so I can ban them in turn. The circle of life.
Kashll
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1117 Posts
September 17 2011 17:01 GMT
#125
We call people "faggots" too.

Gaming community must be sexist against men as well. SHIT WE HATE EVERYONE.
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley
VPCursed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
1044 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-17 17:03:35
September 17 2011 17:01 GMT
#126
On September 18 2011 00:47 Haemonculus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 00:39 HoldenR wrote:
On September 18 2011 00:35 Haemonculus wrote:
On September 18 2011 00:31 HoldenR wrote:
On September 18 2011 00:12 Grumbels wrote:
On September 18 2011 00:01 DerNebel wrote:
Saying the community overreacted out of sexism to the Gizmodo article about Jon Finkel is just plain dumb. He is the Jordan of MtG, beloved player and overall nice guy, and he was being humiliated by some girl who could not see past that he was good at some card-game. The community would have reacted the same if Jon Finkel was gay and the Gizmodo writer had been a dude.

The Day[9] quote is taken out of context, because he was actually mostly ridiculing his young self for being pissed off about this sort of thing. He might have said 'bitch' that time, but he has done that several times as obvious parody. One time he called his mother a bitch for crying out loud!

I'm not going to read the article in full, sue me. If the author gets paid per hit, which is likely, due to the sensationalist nature of the article, then I won't pay him off. Also, the two incidents quoted have obvious flaws insofar as they are used to argue for gamer sexism.

A woman is allowed to find MtG off-putting in a man. She is also allowed to post about how off-putting she finds this on a blog, and while I agree the tone of her article was utterly obnoxious it is not a valid excuse for the hordes of "dumb bitch, how dare she dislike Jon Finkel" posts all on the internet. That's sexism in action and if you say anything like "well she deserved it" then you're just victim-blaming. What next, "well she deserved to be raped with that shirt and saying those mean things" ?


Not only is it a valid excuse, it's a valid reason. You see, if someone acts like a shallow cunt, you validate everyone who calls her a shallow cunt. Is she ALLOWED to dislike someone for playing magic? Yeah, she is. Is she allowed to tell the world? Absolutely. Is it hideously shallow and a disgusting character trait? You know it is. Are people absolutely correct in calling it like they see it? Yes.

If someone behaves like a total tool, you're justified in telling them they're behaving like a total tool. And you are behaving like a total tool, especially with that final sentence. Talk about a ludicrous hyperbole.

Specifically naming the guy in that article was a shitty move. Rejecting him for playing MtG, (and basing his entire life around it) is NOT shallow. She wasn't attracted to him, and they had nothing in common. That is PLENTY reason to reject anyone, regardless of gender.

Naming him personally in the article was wrong, but let's be honest, that's not at all what the majority of the outrage was about.


Let me highlight this for you. There is a difference between
Rejecting him for playing MtG

and
She wasn't attracted to him, and they had nothing in common.

Now, do you see the difference? Because if you do, I hope you realize why I'm going to go watch dreamhack Valencia now instead of bothering to reply to this thread.

Really? You're coming off as a total ass by the way.

Let's say you meet a girl on a dating site. Her profile seems nice. You meet her for a date, and find out that her entire life revolves around something she made no mention of in her profile. Pick any activity you don't enjoy. I dunno, Church group or something. She goes to said group for 4-5 hours *every* day, and all her friends are from said group. When she goes out, it's with people from said group. And again, this group can be anything, but for our purposes, something you have absolutely zero interest in. Would you be shallow for not wanting to date her because of that?

a card game and religion. Wonderful comparison.
also, a side note. I think the gaming culture likes to use gaming as an outlet for there problems. It just so happens that women is pretty high on there list of problems.. almost no matter where they are in life.
TALegion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1187 Posts
September 17 2011 17:06 GMT
#127
If a female is unfavorable in behavior, I will call her a bitch.
If a male is unfavorable in behavior, I will call him a dick.
Balance.
A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman
Fryght
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands254 Posts
September 17 2011 17:06 GMT
#128
This shit is called 'nerd baiting' and it works quite well to draw in loads of traffic. I can't even be bothered to get mad at stupid crap like this any more...best to just ignore it.
lovedoctor
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany115 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-17 17:09:03
September 17 2011 17:06 GMT
#129
Important topic. But bitch has a differrent meaning nowadays, especially on the internet. There was a similar discussion on sotg about the word 'rape' few months ago....

Bitch
(1) Word used to describe the act of whining excessively.

(2) Person who rides specifically in the middle of a front-seatting only car meant for 2 passengers or less.

(3) Modern-day servant; A person who performs tasks for another, usually degrading in status.

(4) Term used to exclaim hardship.
(1) "Stop bitching Todd!"
(2) "Can I ride bitch?"
(3) "Bring my friend and I some vodka bitch"
(4) *Peron tells story to other cellmate, depicting how they came to be there, cellmate says* "Ain't that a Bitch!"


EDIT: Also I think it's an insolence to invent a quote that has never been said. (maybe that's how you can get more intention for such topics)
"Infestors own marines in a way you don't understand" - artosis
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-17 17:17:48
September 17 2011 17:09 GMT
#130
On September 18 2011 01:48 Truedot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 00:01 lorkac wrote:
The gaming culture is centralized in already highly misogynistic societies, the US and Europe. How can't there be sexism in gaming? Add to that the hypermasculine sports aura wherein we enjoy feminizing weakness such as calling the opposing players "our bitch" as well as determining cowardice as being "pussies" we end up with a culture that glorifies the masculine and attacks what we conceive to be feminine ideals.

Esports is very very misogynistic.


there are very clear, documented gender differences in how the brain works to process information, and the size of different parts of the brain. It has been since the beginning of time since women and men are considered inherently different. I used to have trouble with my female friends, understanding their motivation, when they do things most people I know that are male would never do, or do like I would under the same circumstances. There's even been books written on the subject, the whole mars/venus thing.

I know you want equality, but does that mean we all have to be some genderless homogenized mass?

And how can you say e-sports is misogynistic? People heavily into video games tend to go over the top to treat females well.

Also, apparently calling people bitch and pussy attacks feminine ideals, by your statement. what? you seem like the sexist one here.


It may not necessarily be misogynistic, but there is almost indisputably a sexist element in what Iorkac refers to as the 'hypermasculine sports aura'. Generally women don't play contact football because they simply don't have the strength that men do, and psychologically they tend not to be as aggressive as males. Therefore the lack of those qualities in females can be looked down upon by males in the sports arena (or war, or violent video games, etc.). Its quite logical therefore to conclude that there is a heavy degree of sexism, and in some cases misogyny, in most "aggressive" gaming/sports communities. Also note that this is not necessarily a bad thing...did he say he wants women to play violent video games as much as men, even if they don't like it? I think he's just pointing out that this is the reality of the world we live in.

He gave a pretty clear argument as to why the common expression of the word "bitch" or "pussy" in sports can be used to describe this unwanted weakness, seeing as how they're generally understood as being slang terms that people call women (no not the dictionary definition of a female dog )
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
September 17 2011 17:16 GMT
#131
On September 17 2011 23:57 Shiragaku wrote:
Well to be fair, it really does suck being a girl in gaming. My two sisters are very big gamers and they mostly play single player games just to avoid the bullshit from the internet.

And whenever they play MMOs, they always disguise their gender because from experience, they did not receive as much mean sexism as being treated like a goddess. Guys in the guild would get up at 4 in the morning to talk to them, give them lots of gifts, and some other stuff that even I would never ever do for my best friend.

And ignore the Sean Plott thing, I do not think that was the main point of the article.

Yeah but thats completely unrelated to using gender-related insults.

People make way too big a deal out of everything, nothing new here, however.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Demonace34
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2493 Posts
September 17 2011 17:22 GMT
#132
On September 18 2011 02:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2011 23:57 Shiragaku wrote:
Well to be fair, it really does suck being a girl in gaming. My two sisters are very big gamers and they mostly play single player games just to avoid the bullshit from the internet.

And whenever they play MMOs, they always disguise their gender because from experience, they did not receive as much mean sexism as being treated like a goddess. Guys in the guild would get up at 4 in the morning to talk to them, give them lots of gifts, and some other stuff that even I would never ever do for my best friend.

And ignore the Sean Plott thing, I do not think that was the main point of the article.

Yeah but thats completely unrelated to using gender-related insults.

People make way too big a deal out of everything, nothing new here, however.


Yeah ignoring the actual sexist people and not being hypersensitive is the best attitude to have.
NaNiwa|IdrA|HuK|iNcontroL|Jinro|NonY|Day[9]|PuMa|HerO|MMA|NesTea|NaDa|Boxer|Ryung|
Borgur
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden23 Posts
September 17 2011 17:28 GMT
#133
people get offended by everything...
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
September 17 2011 17:30 GMT
#134
it's like saying ALL Swedish people are terrible people cause they swear a lot.

People take small things and blow them majorly out of proportion. just about all my friends are gamers, none of them have ever truly mistreated a girl.

I know another guy who's a total fuck and drinks himself retarded and is in the army, the perfect man by most standards in the good ole USA. He raped a girl at a party, cause he wanted his nut, she was drunk and he figured she wouldn't care or remember. She was 15.

He's a "good" person, who joined the army and did well in school, one of the "popular" guys.

I'd rather be friends with weird "anti social" gamer nerds than "good normal" people any day.
Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44403 Posts
September 17 2011 17:30 GMT
#135
The article is just so incredibly condescending. To quote it
Try to forgive Day[9] for the above quote if you can find the generosity in your little heart—like most male gamers, he doesn't understand that gendered insults are wrong and off-putting to women.

Isn't that nice of them? That they're willing to forgive him for saying those terrible things because he's just too stupid and unfamiliar with women to know what he's doing. Never mind the fact that he didn't say it, the person who said those words is the self righteous, arrogant colossal cock who wrote the argument.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
September 17 2011 17:33 GMT
#136
I read the article and man thats similar to what has happened to me, i play SCII (of course i do i'm on the fucking forum for it) and i just try to keep it out of convos for a while. I'm not ashamed of it, but other people are and for a guy who has a lot of school work due all the time, and goes to a school that has lots of amazing spring sports but not so many fall sports, its hard to fill time up early in the year. I just kinda hate the fact that its so looked down upon, as if going on facebook isn't a similar experience.
User was warned for too many mimes.
lizzard_warish
Profile Joined June 2011
589 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-17 17:33:57
September 17 2011 17:33 GMT
#137
These claims of sexism are so immature and pathetic.
1) "gaming culture" amounts to saying things like newbs and the like. All other elements of gaming do not differ in their interaction from regular culture, its just being done in a game. So claims of sexism are not unique to gaming except perhaps the condition that created it [if it exists], being a largely all male activity.

2) Its a fucking game and its anon for the most part, if people want to use insults or even berate somebody for being female, or black, or gay- even if they dont find these things negative- its going to happen and its hardly a meaningful thing. People are dicks on the internet? My mind is fucking blown.

3) Gendered insults do not imply a hate for a gender or viewing that gender as inferior, when I say bastard I'm not showing my latent hatred for people born out of wedlock.

4) Whats called sexism now a days by modern feminists isnt sexism at all, its in fact a man-eaters perception of it, where we dont glorify the great tree of womanhood or whatever crap there going on about now a days. So not really a charge from a particularly meaningful subset of our population. Fools are mad at us? Oh my.

5) It's not important even if there IS sexism in esports, because 99% of the people here are guys and the interest is and almost always will be confined to that demographic, no ones lives are crushed and its hardly the moral duty of random websites to carry on some social justice campaign.
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
September 17 2011 17:40 GMT
#138
What a dumb article.
I almost feel sorry for the guy who wrote it; what a colossal waste of time.
Sexism is in HUMAN culture, since.. forever. I'd estimate gamers in general are actually less sexist than the overall population.
And Day9? The guy is a saint; any credibility you might have had was destroyed when you hideously misquoted him.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
September 17 2011 17:41 GMT
#139
On September 18 2011 02:33 lizzard_warish wrote:
These claims of sexism are so immature and pathetic.
1) "gaming culture" amounts to saying things like newbs and the like. All other elements of gaming do not differ in their interaction from regular culture, its just being done in a game. So claims of sexism are not unique to gaming except perhaps the condition that created it [if it exists], being a largely all male activity.

2) Its a fucking game and its anon for the most part, if people want to use insults or even berate somebody for being female, or black, or gay- even if they dont find these things negative- its going to happen and its hardly a meaningful thing. People are dicks on the internet? My mind is fucking blown.

3) Gendered insults do not imply a hate for a gender or viewing that gender as inferior, when I say bastard I'm not showing my latent hatred for people born out of wedlock.

4) Whats called sexism now a days by modern feminists isnt sexism at all, its in fact a man-eaters perception of it, where we dont glorify the great tree of womanhood or whatever crap there going on about now a days. So not really a charge from a particularly meaningful subset of our population. Fools are mad at us? Oh my.

5) It's not important even if there IS sexism in esports, because 99% of the people here are guys and the interest is and almost always will be confined to that demographic, no ones lives are crushed and its hardly the moral duty of random websites to carry on some social justice campaign.


Nah, there is definitely misogyny in gaming culture. It's more of an internet-phenomenon, but women are generally treated like crap in the gaming community. I definitely think there is an issue, but articles like these are just fucking awful.

But I agree on the other things. Gendered insults? Who the hell cares? Only guys are called "assholes" because I don't consider someone who uses the term a misandrist or whatever. It's like saying it's sexist to use He instead of She. The fact is that almost all english insults are gender-specific.
lizzard_warish
Profile Joined June 2011
589 Posts
September 17 2011 17:47 GMT
#140
On September 18 2011 02:41 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 02:33 lizzard_warish wrote:
These claims of sexism are so immature and pathetic.
1) "gaming culture" amounts to saying things like newbs and the like. All other elements of gaming do not differ in their interaction from regular culture, its just being done in a game. So claims of sexism are not unique to gaming except perhaps the condition that created it [if it exists], being a largely all male activity.

2) Its a fucking game and its anon for the most part, if people want to use insults or even berate somebody for being female, or black, or gay- even if they dont find these things negative- its going to happen and its hardly a meaningful thing. People are dicks on the internet? My mind is fucking blown.

3) Gendered insults do not imply a hate for a gender or viewing that gender as inferior, when I say bastard I'm not showing my latent hatred for people born out of wedlock.

4) Whats called sexism now a days by modern feminists isnt sexism at all, its in fact a man-eaters perception of it, where we dont glorify the great tree of womanhood or whatever crap there going on about now a days. So not really a charge from a particularly meaningful subset of our population. Fools are mad at us? Oh my.

5) It's not important even if there IS sexism in esports, because 99% of the people here are guys and the interest is and almost always will be confined to that demographic, no ones lives are crushed and its hardly the moral duty of random websites to carry on some social justice campaign.


Nah, there is definitely misogyny in gaming culture. It's more of an internet-phenomenon, but women are generally treated like crap in the gaming community. I definitely think there is an issue, but articles like these are just fucking awful.

But I agree on the other things. Gendered insults? Who the hell cares? Only guys are called "assholes" because I don't consider someone who uses the term a misandrist or whatever. It's like saying it's sexist to use He instead of She. The fact is that almost all english insults are gender-specific.
Who isnt treated like crap on the internet? Are you given personal respect on a day to day game to game affair? Blacks? Christians? Atheists, muslims, Europeans, Socialists, Americans, who the fuck isnt treated like crap on the internet?

I cant think of a single ethnicity or religion that isnt regularly and unrelentingly bashed and demeaned.
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