This is the first thread I've started I think period on TL and definitely the first in the General Forum, so I'm going to try to do as well as I can with it.
I don't know how many of you are familiar with just how many reality shows there are on television these days (I bet most of you are): zillions. Some of them are good, some of them are awful, most of them are middling. But I only ever saw one that really disturbed me, and it is this "Beyond Scared Straight" show.
COPs is one thing, watching "Inside Jail" or whatever with adults is one thing, watching grown men (the sheriffs and guards, not the adult inmates) provoke and then gang up on teenagers is another. It made me sick to my stomach. Does a 15 year old skateboarder who looks like he weighs about 120 pounds really need some 220-lb beefcake prison guard screaming shit in his face? When his crime was to be caught at school with a quarter-ounce of weed? Is this really going to turn him away from a life of crime?
Is "randomly" picking the biggest, meanest-looking kid in the room, telling him repeatedly you'll "fuck him up" and to "get out of my face" while you are the one who got in his face, and then having your guard buddy forearm him from behind to "make him sit back down" really going to make him think something other than "I need to be even bigger and badder so people can't do this to me"?
And then they have the interviews with the top sheriff of the country, principals, etc., and they all sit there like robots saying the same thing, how these kids need someone to set them straight, how they're trying to save these kids from a lifetime in jail, do they even watch the show? Do they even care? Do they wonder why kids in the inner city have no respect for authority figures in school when their only experience with non-parental authority is probably through being brutalized in "scared straight" programs?
I felt like I was watching Schindler's List or The Pianist to be honest. And I think part of the reason is that these guards and sheriffs feel like they have a freer reign to be abusive verbally and physically because they're going to be on "TV" and it needs to be "good TV."
You're never going to teach children, or adults for that matter, to respect the law and the authority that enforces it if the only justification for that authority they are ever shown is "we can hurt you and we will."
And I definitely blame "reality television" as well, there's a difference between COPS, where you're just riding with police on routine patrol (and sometimes on planned sting operations or raids) and whatever happens, happens. It's a different thing when you're going into a correctional facility where you know one side holds all the power so the only drama that is going to occur is from that one side exercising that power. And when one side has all the power and the other side zero, the power will get abused.
And that's why they are there, and that's what disturbs me. The only reason "reality TV" cameras are inside these places is because they know it's good television when someone is screaming in someone's face, someone is physically overpowering someone, shit's going down. And it's a "safe environment," six sheriffs in uniform (or even riot police which I saw them call in one time for no apparent reason other than a kid refused to leave his cell) aren't going to have a trouble beating down a 17 year old.
Who cares if it turns them into more hardened criminals for the future? Commercials are being sold, I'm sure the prison / county gets money from the network for the "privilege," everyone benefits.
Except the people the whole damn thing is actually supposed to benefit, the "wayward" kids themselves.
I haven't seen this show, but I remember the original Scared Straight from back in the 80's, and that seemed pretty effective. Basically they took troubled highschool kids to prisons, and let them see just how horrible it was, and that if they didn't straighten up that thats where they'd end up.
If the new program is as horrible as you describe, it's a true shame.
The worst part to me was the nearly ubiquitous references - by the guards - as to how all these kids were going to get raped if they really went to jail, how "everyone" wanted their ass "and was gonna get it."
Rape is a crime, in prison or not. Making threats as a prison guard about how someone is going to get raped in jail is basically a promise that they are going to be derelict in their duties and in fact are malevolently negligent, they "know" it's going to happen, and they won't do anything to stop it, they "know" it will happen. That's fucked up and I really can't believe it.
Ya sounds like those camps some Gay kids got thrown in by retarded parents.
I'm curious to watch this show, but foreal you're 1100% right.
This is not discipline, this is traumatizing people. Just the title itself speaks volumes. Sure they might get cooperation, but without understanding you build alot of resentment in the patient.
When they leave. what they leave with is, regret, resentment, and most likely this will resonate much more then any other lecon some retard boot camp trainer can give.
I've seen a few videos of children under the age of 18 being beaten brutally for mouthing off. It's really not fair, but this is an offspring of the insane humans born in the USA. I'm sorry but it's true. This hopefully does not exist anywhere else.
I've even heard of kids dying. The truth is this type of correctional facility being on TV is a good thing. Now the public can openly critise this and in turn more attention will be given to the brutality endured by these kids.
Too be honest, I think the root of the problem is in the societal mentality of a large proportion within america. This righteous way of thinking that you have to do whatever is needed to acheive you're goal. Even if it means doing the exact opposite of what is right.
I've watched the show many times, I personally love it. Most of the time are young gang members, some of them talk about how proud they are to be carrying guns around and stuff like that. They all joke about going into the prison at first, but then they are forced to understand that the path that they are heading down is going to lead them to prison at some point, and that the only way to avoid it is to straighten up. I don't think it's traumatizing to these kids, most of them understand what they are doing and why they are there, they think they're tough enough for the street life until they're forced to see past the rap songs and into reality.
I don't know if you've watched the entire show, but the prisoners don't just yell at them and talk about how they're going to get raped. They certainly do, at first, but after they sort of break them in, they start to share stories with them, they try to relate to the kids and try to convince them that crime will lead them to prison, and prison is no place that they want to be.
Now, if you feel like some teenager who is caught with weed doesn't belong in there, I'm with you on that. But that has more to do with American policy on marijuana than it does with the show or the program that these prisons run.
But please, watch the entire show and see how some of these kids really do change their lives after visiting the prisons, and most of the time its the kids who are in there for the most serious offenses.
Rape and crime in jail itself is pretty bad. Nobody will squeal in jail and since you cannot perform a preemtive arrest on everybody within a jail for future crimes which WILL be commited, it is pretty much guaranteed that any youth that goes to jail is going to leave with a size 10 hole. Aside from the mention of that brutal fact, the stuff you said is pretty bad, unless, of course, it is a voluntary program. Reforming people requires breaking them. Even then, this is pretty bad. There has to be, at the minimum, occaisonal positive reinforcement. This could also be a simulation program, in which case it is partially exaggerated, but only a little. People don't get chewed out for no reason, but strip searches based on body language and SWAT for even partially defiant inmates is common. If this is an involuntary program, I am dissapointed in the current state of the rights of minors.
There are police and prison guards who do this even outside of this reality tv show, and there are two outcomes, they won't try to do anything stupid again or they will try and fight it. Your mentioning brutality on a tv show, but where i live i've seen people in front of my house get beat down and sprayed and sometimes they didn't do anything but they were trouble makers in the past.
What you describe happens in real life, expect for the show they sometimes just juice it up a little, It depends where you grow up and what you experience in life. I have never been to jail but I know a lot of people that have, some of them doesn't mind going to jail again(for the x number of time) while the others actually try to change their life.
The part where you said that the 17 year old refused to leave his cell so 6 sheriffs came to take him out, there was a kid in my HS a few years back who was preaching about how the school did him wrong, and stood out side in the hallways refusing to go to class, then refusing to leave. The school called the cops, and in minutes 4 officers came and one of the officers speared the kid to the ground and another officer sprayed him afterward they cuffed him and threw him in the back of the squad car. The guy was only about 16 or so at the time. As I said it depends where you grow up, the OP could have grown up in a nice environment where you never see these kind of things and say that it is only for reality TV, but things like this happen in real life too.
So the OP wants to blame reality TV just because he has never witness stuff like this in real life.
The whole concept of the show sounds terrible. From your description, it sounds like the kids brought in there get out more fucked up than before. It certainly doesn't sound like resocialisation is their main (or any) goal. But! It brings viewership...
Also:
I don't know how many of you are familiar with just how many reality shows there are on television these days (I bet most of you are): zillions. Some of the are horrible, some of them are mindnumbingly dumb, most induce a braincell genocide in their viewers.
ive watched it with mixed feelings. but when i watch reality tv i mainly do it because i dont want to use my brain. some was a bit extreme other times i went like "shit this may could have happened to me back in the days i did stupid things".. so yes.. think twice before driving drunk or doing drugs.. other than that all that show does is showing how fucked up society is and how even more fucked up TV is.
reality tv is not equal to reality.. so..
edit: that like 12 year old kid who cried was a bit over the top. the stupid girls were funny. edit2: oh yeah and i illegaly streamed the show lol.
And you'll notice most of these kids initially going in there with a hard attitude, and quickly soften up. It's the harsh reality. Better that they get exposed to it early and have the chance to realize that's not the life they want to pursue, then to wait until your actually behind bars and there is no turning back. Most of you commenting with a weak stomach about it don't understand; certain kids with this mentality think their invincible. Only way to humble them is to introduce them to the grim reality. If that doesn't scare them from the lifestyle, nothing else will. It is what it is...
I'd like to see the ends before I completely denounce the means. When you've tried reasoning with them, giving them all of the attention and comfort they could ever want, and it still doesn't get it through their thick skulls that they are going to end up knee deep in the shitter with their bad behaviour, what's left?
Knew plenty of kids in high school who would simply not respond positively to reason or the attention they craved. What they needed was a good ass whipping to make them realize they're not the alpha-male specimen they think they are.
Why are you bashing their methods? If it keeps the kids out of prison then power to the program the kids aren't physically accosted or told anything untrue, prison isn't pretty it isn't easy and they need to see that.
That"15 year old skateboarder" had been smoking weed since 7th grade and his mother had no idea what to do with him, in fact before going into prison he'd never even considered stopping smoking even for a second and after the visit promised his mother to stop (though he probably won't follow through).
I've watched a couple episodes, it sort of varies really, there was this episode where the kids got massively threatened and yelled at constantly by the inmates. There was this lady screaming the entire 1 hour episode.
Then 2 weeks later the episode that aired was so different, the inmates talked a little tough, but softened up and it was pretty heartwarming, especially when one guy came out and talked about how he ended up in there after stealing like $40, getting raped in prison etc. (Some California episode or something)
Might be a little harsh, but some of those kids in there steal and assault people and stuff according to the show, and I guess they're already pretty close to being jailed as they can be. I doubt they'd just put regular misbehaving kids in there.
I'll catch more episodes, it's on Crime & Investigation channel on Singapore cable if anyone cares.
I remember my middle school principal getting into a lot of trouble for encouraging the all the kids and their parents to watch the 80s version. My mom had us turn it off five minutes in.
As for my take on it: it's a fascist's wet dream.
That aside, I would have to see the results before I completely condemn such practices. As the poster above me pointed out, some kids don't get it and need to be out-alpha-maled, as that's the only thing they seem to understand.
shit man, i remember the one in 99 on mtv. There was no fucking way I was gonna do something dumb enough to land in there after seeing that shit. I didn't wanna hold someone's pocket and be named bridgette
from what I remember, they aren't pulling in kids who got picked up for a bag of weed here and trespassing there. It's dumb shit kids who constantly do get in trouble and do terrible things despite having a decent enough environment at home, with parents who have tried lots of other methods
On September 08 2011 05:39 Hawk wrote: shit man, i remember the one in 99 on mtv. There was no fucking way I was gonna do something dumb enough to land in there after seeing that shit. I didn't wanna hold someone's pocket and be named bridgette http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4y61A4a080&feature=related
from what I remember, they aren't pulling in kids who got picked up for a bag of weed here and trespassing there. It's dumb shit kids who constantly do get in trouble and do terrible things despite having a decent enough environment at home, with parents who have tried lots of other methods
That... is fucking terrifying. I would hate to have that guy yelling in my face for a minute straight... And it looks like there's a whole row of them waiting to get their turn.
It's their parents that decided to send them there, I'm sure the parents are trying what's best for their children this is better than beating them or starving or even worse, just not caring.
The really stupid part about this show is they get kids who have done such trivial "crimes" I think one kid I saw on there was in trouble cause he was getting into some fights at school? which was discovered was just pent up anger from his mom dying...which is just sad.. bringing this kid to a jail and yelling at him wasn't the right way to go about dealing with his situation, but hey, that's television.
On September 08 2011 04:11 DeepElemBlues wrote: This is the first thread I've started I think period on TL and definitely the first in the General Forum, so I'm going to try to do as well as I can with it.
I don't know how many of you are familiar with just how many reality shows there are on television these days (I bet most of you are): zillions. Some of them are good, some of them are awful, most of them are middling. But I only ever saw one that really disturbed me, and it is this "Beyond Scared Straight" show.
COPs is one thing, watching "Inside Jail" or whatever with adults is one thing, watching grown men (the sheriffs and guards, not the adult inmates) provoke and then gang up on teenagers is another. It made me sick to my stomach. Does a 15 year old skateboarder who looks like he weighs about 120 pounds really need some 220-lb beefcake prison guard screaming shit in his face? When his crime was to be caught at school with a quarter-ounce of weed? Is this really going to turn him away from a life of crime?
Is "randomly" picking the biggest, meanest-looking kid in the room, telling him repeatedly you'll "fuck him up" and to "get out of my face" while you are the one who got in his face, and then having your guard buddy forearm him from behind to "make him sit back down" really going to make him think something other than "I need to be even bigger and badder so people can't do this to me"?
And then they have the interviews with the top sheriff of the country, principals, etc., and they all sit there like robots saying the same thing, how these kids need someone to set them straight, how they're trying to save these kids from a lifetime in jail, do they even watch the show? Do they even care? Do they wonder why kids in the inner city have no respect for authority figures in school when their only experience with non-parental authority is probably through being brutalized in "scared straight" programs?
I felt like I was watching Schindler's List or The Pianist to be honest. And I think part of the reason is that these guards and sheriffs feel like they have a freer reign to be abusive verbally and physically because they're going to be on "TV" and it needs to be "good TV."
You're never going to teach children, or adults for that matter, to respect the law and the authority that enforces it if the only justification for that authority they are ever shown is "we can hurt you and we will."
And I definitely blame "reality television" as well, there's a difference between COPS, where you're just riding with police on routine patrol (and sometimes on planned sting operations or raids) and whatever happens, happens. It's a different thing when you're going into a correctional facility where you know one side holds all the power so the only drama that is going to occur is from that one side exercising that power. And when one side has all the power and the other side zero, the power will get abused.
And that's why they are there, and that's what disturbs me. The only reason "reality TV" cameras are inside these places is because they know it's good television when someone is screaming in someone's face, someone is physically overpowering someone, shit's going down. And it's a "safe environment," six sheriffs in uniform (or even riot police which I saw them call in one time for no apparent reason other than a kid refused to leave his cell) aren't going to have a trouble beating down a 17 year old.
Who cares if it turns them into more hardened criminals for the future? Commercials are being sold, I'm sure the prison / county gets money from the network for the "privilege," everyone benefits.
Except the people the whole damn thing is actually supposed to benefit, the "wayward" kids themselves.
thats the point. its sad to see and even with the majority of teachers, noone reallly gives a shit about the children. Oh, they'll expound endlessly about it, try to look good, but in the end people are only out for themselves.
Watch "waiting for superman", and you'll see. I highly recommend it if you're a U.S. citizen and don't know whats going on with education in your country.
Teachers that are so horrible they're paid to sit in a room all together doing nothing? As if they are all middle school students in detention? You better watch if that tag grabs your interest.
here's one again, amid all the rampant "teens are children" and "child molestor" and "pedophile" media frenzy and scares, and all the "new" cases being harped on, you'll find that even some police don't really give a shit. Although I disagree with the article on one thing, rape is about sexual grat as much as it is about power. Noone robs a bank and finishes up by blowing their load on a customer.
On September 08 2011 05:57 ahx wrote: The really stupid part about this show is they get kids who have done such trivial "crimes" I think one kid I saw on there was in trouble cause he was getting into some fights at school? which was discovered was just pent up anger from his mom dying...which is just sad.. bringing this kid to a jail and yelling at him wasn't the right way to go about dealing with his situation, but hey, that's television.
I get to say this because I have U.S. Citizenship:
The U.S. is a witchhunt mentality. its an extremist mentality. Everything has to be done bigger, small things have to be blown out of proportion. things that were minor trivialities in the 70's or 80's are now huge and horrendously bad things. Kids getting in fights are no longer kids being kids, but kids that are future murderers who need to be treated as harshly as possible.
The U.S. is going mad like the Romans did before their civilization fell apart, and this time we can't blame lead water piping.
Kinda related, check out the episode of the boondocks (animated TV show) where the kids go to jail to be "scared straight".
f'ing hillarioius.
Also, just because this is billed as "reality", doesn't mean its real. I bet the kids know what to expect going in, and their parents all agreed to it.
I don't know the show, but I'm totally down with the OP. Today's TV really has crossed the line, especially reality TV. I sometimes feel reminded of running man (the schwarzenegger movie) if I look at what happens in reality TV. The degradation of human life for quotes and you always have to top it up even more to stay competitive.
It's the parents who send them there, so if there's anyone to blame, blame them. However, I see this as positive. After that program, a kid with any sense at all will stay out of trouble.
I watched the show once and was horrified. I cannot understand how any parent can let their child go through that no matter what they did. The only thing I can see being accomplished is causing the teens to hate the law and its enforcers.
On September 08 2011 06:32 ampson wrote: It's the parents who send them there, so if there's anyone to blame, blame them. However, I see this as positive. After that program, a kid with any sense at all will stay out of trouble.
That's pretty naive. If you would be right, no one would commit a crime after being raped in prison if he has any sense at all. The world and the human being aren't that easy to analyze.
On September 08 2011 05:38 andrewlt wrote: Sounds terrible. Treatment like this is why the US has one of the highest recidivism rates in the entire planet.
I wonder what will you do to those kids that break the law and think they run the world. This is a legit way of making them change their mindset to avoid jail, being in jail for years now THAT is terrible.
On September 08 2011 06:32 ampson wrote: It's the parents who send them there, so if there's anyone to blame, blame them. However, I see this as positive. After that program, a kid with any sense at all will stay out of trouble.
That's pretty naive. If you would be right, no one would commit a crime after being raped in prison if he has any sense at all. The world and the human being aren't that easy to analyze.
Nothing has a 100% success rate. But it helps
On September 08 2011 05:57 ahx wrote: The really stupid part about this show is they get kids who have done such trivial "crimes" I think one kid I saw on there was in trouble cause he was getting into some fights at school? which was discovered was just pent up anger from his mom dying...which is just sad.. bringing this kid to a jail and yelling at him wasn't the right way to go about dealing with his situation, but hey, that's television.
The point is that the kid was choosing a wrong path for his life. Of course they are trivial 'crimes', how do you think it all starts?
hi i think its unfair he had to go to a camp because he likes skateboarden. what i dont get is why they say straight. is it cause they dont want them to be gay?
I don't know, the episode I saw had several kids who were literally bragging about how they would end up in prison by the time they reached 25. The show is mainly about inmates trying to impress on the kids how the decisions they are making now can affect their entire lives, and how they wish they had done things differently.
On September 08 2011 04:24 DeepElemBlues wrote: The worst part to me was the nearly ubiquitous references - by the guards - as to how all these kids were going to get raped if they really went to jail, how "everyone" wanted their ass "and was gonna get it."
Rape is a crime, in prison or not. Making threats as a prison guard about how someone is going to get raped in jail is basically a promise that they are going to be derelict in their duties and in fact are malevolently negligent, they "know" it's going to happen, and they won't do anything to stop it, they "know" it will happen. That's fucked up and I really can't believe it.
Yes... and no. Even if the guards do attempt to prevent it, it'll happen regardless. These aren't the actual guards letting it happen, nor are they saying they openly will let it happen. Rather, they're merely reinforcing the fact that prison rape is indeed very common.
While maybe it's sending a poor message on how prison facilities are run, I think it could still be a very valuable method of deterring existing potential criminals. Haven't watched the show though, and I do think you have a valid point.
On September 08 2011 05:57 ahx wrote: The really stupid part about this show is they get kids who have done such trivial "crimes" I think one kid I saw on there was in trouble cause he was getting into some fights at school? which was discovered was just pent up anger from his mom dying...which is just sad.. bringing this kid to a jail and yelling at him wasn't the right way to go about dealing with his situation, but hey, that's television.
The point is that the kid was choosing a wrong path for his life. Of course they are trivial 'crimes', how do you think it all starts?
It's probably the extent of how trivial... to me this sounds like it's definitely the wrong path. If anything, counseling or a psychiatrist to help him cope better emotionally would be far more ideal, at least in my opinion.
On September 08 2011 06:40 yagsllab wrote: hi i think its unfair he had to go to a camp because he likes skateboarden. what i dont get is why they say straight. is it cause they dont want them to be gay?
my english is very bad sorry
What they are using is the original slang definition of straight, or "straight-edge." Basically it's a kid who does things right, doesn't do drugs, follows rules etc. the term is used in lots of different contexts, sometimes negatively, sometimes positively, so yea it gets kinda confusing.
Because it's not the parents who fucked up, but their prepubescent children. I get it.
Watched the first episode to get a bit of an idea what the program is about. Now, some kids might indeed see this as a wake-up call, but the vast majority of kids who 'get into trouble' genuinely need help; be it emotional support or therapy. Punishment or 'scare tactics' won't do shit for these kids, because once they go back to their daily lives, they are surrounded by the same people, they're in the same situation, with the same needs.
In high school, I was sent to jail to be 'scared straight' for a day. I was in a gifted and talented program so I'm not sure why they picked the 25 of us. (Although many of us did end up on wall street, so maybe we were the target market?) But anyway, it really makes a big impact on you. People yelling at you, making fun of you, banging on the plexiglass was all pretty scary. The female wing was just as scary as the men's side. The worst part was the smell. Jail smells so freaking bad its unbelievable. Oh god the smell...
I decided then that I never want to go to jail. Any romanticized versions of jail have dissapeared. It's been really effective in my case. So coming from that perspective, I can't see this as being a bad thing. It's not like you are treated like that forever, its only temporary and really makes you think about if you want to spend 25 years in a place like that.
From what I've watched, they take the most ridiculously cocky kids and get them as close to the real experience as they can, sometimes showing them things that I don't think would normally happen at a jail (as if i would know) just to scare them. Seems effective but also seems scarring in a negative way too.
Overall I think it's still effective, these kids are punks ^^
On September 08 2011 05:39 Hawk wrote: shit man, i remember the one in 99 on mtv. There was no fucking way I was gonna do something dumb enough to land in there after seeing that shit. I didn't wanna hold someone's pocket and be named bridgette http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4y61A4a080&feature=related
from what I remember, they aren't pulling in kids who got picked up for a bag of weed here and trespassing there. It's dumb shit kids who constantly do get in trouble and do terrible things despite having a decent enough environment at home, with parents who have tried lots of other methods
That... is fucking terrifying. I would hate to have that guy yelling in my face for a minute straight... And it looks like there's a whole row of them waiting to get their turn.
The presence of that particular man would have been scary enough... the melan like epidermis is scary at a young age.
Part 3/4/5 of that movie seems more interesting... they get some bigger discussion going on...
On September 08 2011 04:19 Millitron wrote: I haven't seen this show, but I remember the original Scared Straight from back in the 80's, and that seemed pretty effective. Basically they took troubled highschool kids to prisons, and let them see just how horrible it was, and that if they didn't straighten up that thats where they'd end up.
If the new program is as horrible as you describe, it's a true shame.
I've seen the show. Everything from the cop to the actual inmates is all an act, and a poor one at that.
The cops all act like passive aggressive assholes. One second they'll be screaming in the kid's face to "do something about them being in their face" and the next they'll be trying to show sympathy for them and telling them they should hug their mother.
The inmates vary, there are rooms where they all yell at the kids threats from beating them to turning them into their bitch (with the cops actually enforcing these thoughts by doing things like putting the kids in the cells with them, or telling the kids "hey look that guy wants to see your ass, turn around for him"). Then the next room will have some 1-on-1 action with an inmate who has a really sad story about how they're just the victim and wish they could have made the right choices.
The cops constantly try to aggravate the kids into doing something, but the kids are at the very least smart enough to know that you don't hit a cop in a prison.
The premise of the show is a decent idea, as most of the kids had no real issues in their life causing them to turn this way. However the execution of the show is terrible.
It's all acted for the camera. How are you so gullible? Good lord. Do you literally believe everything you see on television and read in the newspaper, media which are there to entertain, amuse, and scare you?
On September 08 2011 05:05 QooQ wrote: And you'll notice most of these kids initially going in there with a hard attitude, and quickly soften up. It's the harsh reality. Better that they get exposed to it early and have the chance to realize that's not the life they want to pursue, then to wait until your actually behind bars and there is no turning back. Most of you commenting with a weak stomach about it don't understand; certain kids with this mentality think their invincible. Only way to humble them is to introduce them to the grim reality. If that doesn't scare them from the lifestyle, nothing else will. It is what it is...
This is my view on it. Yeah it seems harsh but i honestly think after a trip there youll think twice about anything that might make you end up there.
On September 08 2011 09:09 Jinsho wrote: It's all acted for the camera. How are you so gullible? Good lord. Do you literally believe everything you see on television and read in the newspaper, media which are there to entertain, amuse, and scare you?
Those 14 year olds would have to be psychologically strong as well as good actors to not be affected by a big black dude screaming in their face and humiliating them in front of their classmates.
On September 08 2011 09:09 Jinsho wrote: It's all acted for the camera. How are you so gullible? Good lord. Do you literally believe everything you see on television and read in the newspaper, media which are there to entertain, amuse, and scare you?
This. Pretty much exactly what i was going to write when i read the OP... It seems too stupid to be true. Even for a "reality" show.
Is "randomly" picking the biggest, meanest-looking kid in the room, telling him repeatedly you'll "fuck him up" and to "get out of my face" while you are the one who got in his face, and then having your guard buddy forearm him from behind to "make him sit back down" really going to make him think something other than "I need to be even bigger and badder so people can't do this to me"?
There's a 0% chance of me ever ending up in these places, but thats what Im thinking just reading about it - seems pretty retarded. Honestly, it feels like this kind of retarded abuse of power would make organized crime seem pretty attractive, hell nobody gonna mess with you then -_-
The show may be fake, I can't say as I haven't seen it, but I think the way we do jail/prison/corrections in this country is wrong. I can't think of a better way to say it other than we just do it wrong. The recent tragedy in Norway put a lot of focus on their penal system, and while I think exceptions should be made for people that murder 69 other people, their philosophy on rehabilitation of criminals is just plain better than ours.
I personally get no enjoyment from shows such as this, I don't like to see human beings in those conditions. Maybe I'm crazy, probably am, but I just don't think threatening teenagers with rape is the best way to go about changing their behavior.
I get the concept of being tough on crime, prison shouldn't be fun right? but aside from public executions how much tougher on crime can we get in this country? Maybe it would be a better idea to invest in these troubled teens while they are young instead of de-humanizing them.
Eh, watched a few episodes, not too bad. Boo Hoo, the big man yelled at me. Okay, move on.
Sure, it's used for entertainment and I'm sure some of those kids don't really need to be there, but if that's the case, who really cares? It's an experience. If they don't REALLY need to be there, they know they don't.
Is "randomly" picking the biggest, meanest-looking kid in the room, telling him repeatedly you'll "fuck him up" and to "get out of my face" while you are the one who got in his face, and then having your guard buddy forearm him from behind to "make him sit back down" really going to make him think something other than "I need to be even bigger and badder so people can't do this to me"?
There's a 0% chance of me ever ending up in these places, but thats what Im thinking just reading about it - seems pretty retarded. Honestly, it feels like this kind of retarded abuse of power would make organized crime seem pretty attractive, hell nobody gonna mess with you then -_-
Isn't that the big problem? i need to be bigger then the biggest, you need to be the toughest kid on the block because that's how you survive in those schools, education there is fucked up in allot of ways. instead of trying to give them more options to succeed and encourage them to take those, they try to scare them away of it
as for if this is helping or just making it worse, i think its doing more good then bad, most of these kids are already on a bad road, and as i said they are just gonna get worse, they will try to get bigger and badder even without this show.
what they are showing is not that outrageous, they are showing them where they might land if they don't change, those jails are no joke, the guards wont threat you much better then the other prisoners would. some might be successively scared away.
also i would like to add that society is becoming way to soft on children, oh nooo some one is yelling at that child that might cause him mental trauma, oh nooo they are ganging up on this 15 year old boy who is actualy already pretty much a adult, just because he had a tiny little bit of drugs, he might start thinking its a bad thing! :S as soon as they "grow up" (some people just don't grow up and are still dependant on their parents at age 30) they suddenly realize that reality is actualy a bitch..
The thing is if the kids aren't fucking stupid then they know the inmates and cops won't do anything to them and then the whole thing is just a joke. You can stand there and yell back, close your eyes and pretend you are asleep, whatever the fuck you want because they can't touch you and nothing bad will ever happen. Just like stupid fear factor, how is that shit even scary? You are hooked up to the most ridiculous safety rigs in the world.
Also, just from personal experience dealing with yelling from adults when I was an adolescent and teen, I generally just sat there nodding my head and just ignoring the tons of bullshit coming out." In one ear, out the other" as the saying goes. Usually afterwords, I left the office or whatever just going "hey look all I have to deal with when I get in trouble is some stupid fucks yelling/preaching, nothing I haven't heard at home or outside my entire life". It's not even punishment, it's not going to set anyone straight 100% of the time, and it teaches kids to just work the system. Even when threatened with detention or grounding it's nothing because all you do is sit there bored and think of (probably bad shit to do to fill the time).
I don't know how effective this would even be. I mean, the experience would be terrible, but for corrective change? I don't know, some kids when faced with over the top verbal abuse, can often go into brace-yourself-for-the-storm mode, and click, your rant is blah, blah, blah (when is this over?), and then later they can mock the experience with their friends. It's probably emotionally damaging (and on those grounds alone, I'd never support this), but their coping methods may exclude them getting the actual message.
Edit Aw man, ninja'ed by SpoR who said it better.
On September 08 2011 20:40 InTheCloudss wrote: also i would like to add that society is becoming way to soft on children, oh nooo some one is yelling at that child that might cause him mental trauma, oh nooo they are ganging up on this 15 year old boy who is actualy already pretty much a adult, just because he had a tiny little bit of drugs, he might start thinking its a bad thing! :S as soon as they "grow up" (some people just don't grow up and are still dependant on their parents at age 30) they suddenly realize that reality is actualy a bitch..
I could maybe agree with the bolded part, but this is not the way to do it. Furthermore, quite contrary to getting soft on children, there's quite a few children growing up suffering from child abuse (and I would imagine, they would be much more impervious to this sort of tactic- random stranger or your parent? Which will be more damaging?) as well as far more children getting stuck in custody battles and fears of kidnapping because of said custody battles. If society is softer on children, it's become just as hard as well. Or perhaps it was always hard, I have no idea.
On September 09 2011 10:50 Falling wrote: I could maybe agree with the bolded part, but this is not the way to do it. Furthermore, quite contrary to getting soft on children, there's quite a few children growing up suffering from child abuse (and I would imagine, they would be much more impervious to this sort of tactic- random stranger or your parent? Which will be more damaging?) as well as far more children getting stuck in custody battles and fears of kidnapping because of said custody battles. If society is softer on children, it's become just as hard as well. Or perhaps it was always hard, I have no idea.
yes there are cases of things like that happening but i that's not what i meant, im talking about the large part of the parents who spoil their children to death and cry out of outrage when a child gets punished by anything else then a "timeout" They let them do whatever they want and brush it off whit, he is just a child (the age of remaining a child is rising too :S)
Horror campains has always seemed very wrong to me, after I remember getting shown these horrifing pictures of decayed teeth at the dentist office to scare me into brushing em. Then again im totally fucked up, so everything I think might actually be wrong. So why not cut to the core, why not just put children into prison for a day, to really traumatize them and see if that works, no cameras and no supervision and really brake them?
On September 08 2011 05:57 Dacendoran wrote: It's their parents that decided to send them there, I'm sure the parents are trying what's best for their children this is better than beating them or starving or even worse, just not caring.
Quarter of an once weed?...
I hate people who do bought drugs because it funds the horrors in mexico etc. but christ who hasn't handled a quarter once of any drug?
Many times parents will send their kids to these types of programs becuase they have tried so many other tactics taht didnt work. If it gets the kids to stop then I say go for it. Plus they arent beating on them or anything... boo hoo if the kid walks out feeling bad for doing drugs. He/she probably should have felt bad a long time ago for it, reality sucks when it hits you all at one time and with a fierce attitude.
I feel sorry that it took these extreme measures to reach the kids, not that they got their feelings hurt. Plus half of it is probably staged anyways like every other reality show out there.
On September 09 2011 10:40 SpoR wrote: The thing is if the kids aren't fucking stupid then they know the inmates and cops won't do anything to them and then the whole thing is just a joke. You can stand there and yell back, close your eyes and pretend you are asleep, whatever the fuck you want because they can't touch you and nothing bad will ever happen. Just like stupid fear factor, how is that shit even scary? You are hooked up to the most ridiculous safety rigs in the world.
Also, just from personal experience dealing with yelling from adults when I was an adolescent and teen, I generally just sat there nodding my head and just ignoring the tons of bullshit coming out." In one ear, out the other" as the saying goes. Usually afterwords, I left the office or whatever just going "hey look all I have to deal with when I get in trouble is some stupid fucks yelling/preaching, nothing I haven't heard at home or outside my entire life". It's not even punishment, it's not going to set anyone straight 100% of the time, and it teaches kids to just work the system. Even when threatened with detention or grounding it's nothing because all you do is sit there bored and think of (probably bad shit to do to fill the time).
you must be Einstein. This show isn't reality TV, considering it was around in fucking 1978. That shit isn't fake. Act up and smile in their faces and get your teeth knocked down your fucking throat. Yell back and try to act big and bad. "They can't touch you" - are you a dunce? These are guys in prison for life. I'm sure beating the smirk off of some kid's face is going to make them think twice.
Completely agree with about everything your say and the sentiment of it Never seen this show in particular but it does remind me of "boothcamp" of wich i seen a part once and wich was equally terrible
I dont know what would be a good way to try get kids "do the right things" but the method in this serie, wich seem widespread in the usa, also amongst adults is obviously not going to work I its so awkward to see the staff actually enjoying humiliating the prisoners
Annyway dont know what else to say: tv in general is of extreme low quality in europe and reality tv is definatly to blame for that partially, can imagine it only be worse in the usa Luckily we have internet now and i barely watch tv annymore, never actually beside the occasional news show/documentary/sitcom on the background while sitting behind pc
On September 08 2011 04:11 DeepElemBlues wrote: Who cares if it turns them into more hardened criminals for the future? Commercials are being sold, I'm sure the prison / county gets money from the network for the "privilege," everyone benefits.
Except the people the whole damn thing is actually supposed to benefit, the "wayward" kids themselves.
Thats just it, they don't want to keep them out of prison. The prison system is an industry like any other. Its subject to the economy, its traded on wall street. The prison system profits from "growth" just like any other business only the growth is more citizens incarcerated for ridiculous laws being broken. The more people locked up, the more money they make. Thats why they keep making new laws instead of using technology/common sense to prevent the law being broken in the first place.
They made us watch this in my Law and Society class, was stupid tbh, sure fear can be a good controlling factor, but informational? No not "everyone" gets raped.
On September 08 2011 04:24 DeepElemBlues wrote: The worst part to me was the nearly ubiquitous references - by the guards - as to how all these kids were going to get raped if they really went to jail, how "everyone" wanted their ass "and was gonna get it."
Rape is a crime, in prison or not. Making threats as a prison guard about how someone is going to get raped in jail is basically a promise that they are going to be derelict in their duties and in fact are malevolently negligent, they "know" it's going to happen, and they won't do anything to stop it, they "know" it will happen. That's fucked up and I really can't believe it.
Yes... and no. Even if the guards do attempt to prevent it, it'll happen regardless. These aren't the actual guards letting it happen, nor are they saying they openly will let it happen. Rather, they're merely reinforcing the fact that prison rape is indeed very common.
While maybe it's sending a poor message on how prison facilities are run, I think it could still be a very valuable method of deterring existing potential criminals. Haven't watched the show though, and I do think you have a valid point.
On September 08 2011 05:57 ahx wrote: The really stupid part about this show is they get kids who have done such trivial "crimes" I think one kid I saw on there was in trouble cause he was getting into some fights at school? which was discovered was just pent up anger from his mom dying...which is just sad.. bringing this kid to a jail and yelling at him wasn't the right way to go about dealing with his situation, but hey, that's television.
The point is that the kid was choosing a wrong path for his life. Of course they are trivial 'crimes', how do you think it all starts?
It's probably the extent of how trivial... to me this sounds like it's definitely the wrong path. If anything, counseling or a psychiatrist to help him cope better emotionally would be far more ideal, at least in my opinion.
Umm, the guards actively participate in allowing prison rape to happen. it controls the inmate population.
They also stick one person from a different ethnicity or race in a group thats completely homogenously another ethnicity or race, to provoke race wars.
The idea is, keep the inmates fighting each other, and we never have to worry about them uniting against us.
You should realize whats going on in prisons in actuality.
Or did the photos of the abuses at Abu Ghrab not make it clear? Or did the Stanford Experiment with inmates and prison guards being all students, where eithical and moral atrocities occured within 7 days, Not make it clear?
On September 08 2011 04:11 DeepElemBlues wrote: Who cares if it turns them into more hardened criminals for the future? Commercials are being sold, I'm sure the prison / county gets money from the network for the "privilege," everyone benefits.
Except the people the whole damn thing is actually supposed to benefit, the "wayward" kids themselves.
Thats just it, they don't want to keep them out of prison. The prison system is an industry like any other. Its subject to the economy, its traded on wall street. The prison system profits from "growth" just like any other business only the growth is more citizens incarcerated for ridiculous laws being broken. The more people locked up, the more money they make. Thats why they keep making new laws instead of using technology/common sense to prevent the law being broken in the first place.
yep. Inmates are dollar signs. they are cash cows. having inmates increases the amount of taxpayer money you get. Why do you think prison sentences are getting longer and longer in america, with the tacking on of more and more "counts" of crimes to ensure that prisoners get as long as possible? America is capitalist to the extreme. Look at euro countries or even Canada, they have far lower crime rates and far lower prison sentences.
"The more laws you make, the more criminals there will be" Lao Tzu.
Criminals also can't change anything, because once you're a convicted felon, you no longer have the right to vote. Which means you can't change the system that abused you or that you think is wrong. Get enough of your population convicted felons, and now there is no democracy, because the majority of people cannot tell the govt what to do anymore. its just another method of Tyranny or Dictatorship. And then, excessively propaganda against "Criminals" to keep "non-convicts" scared of the bogeyman that is criminals, and thus, just liike how americans gave up al their rights to be safe from terrorists, they will keep giving up their rights, with the passing of more and more laws that criminalize everything, to be safe from criminals, who they will fear so much they will willingly agree to have them put away for 20+ years. And then in actuality this time frame is DESIRABLE for the institutions that run the prisons, because they get MORE taxpayer money.
Hint: All prisons are privately run institutions. Just like the Federal Reserve is a privately run institution and not connected to the govt at all. Just like the IRS is too.
Dunno why would it be fake, I mean it can be you can say that to every single reality show on tv. Apparently there are so few kids getting into fights/ disrispecting authority / doing minor crimes,nowadays , that the producers are forced to pay actors to play them. (Sarcasm)
On September 09 2011 10:50 Falling wrote: I could maybe agree with the bolded part, but this is not the way to do it. Furthermore, quite contrary to getting soft on children, there's quite a few children growing up suffering from child abuse (and I would imagine, they would be much more impervious to this sort of tactic- random stranger or your parent? Which will be more damaging?) as well as far more children getting stuck in custody battles and fears of kidnapping because of said custody battles. If society is softer on children, it's become just as hard as well. Or perhaps it was always hard, I have no idea.
yes there are cases of things like that happening but i that's not what i meant, im talking about the large part of the parents who spoil their children to death and cry out of outrage when a child gets punished by anything else then a "timeout" They let them do whatever they want and brush it off whit, he is just a child (the age of remaining a child is rising too :S)
to me this whole "rising age of remaining a child" is bad for responsiblity.
It teaches kids they can be irresponsible douchebags, and then when 18 years old rolls around, suddenly they have to change? This goes against ALL known understanding of how the brain works, and how psychology works. Ingrained patterns cant suddenly SWITCH at the drop of a birthday.
Its the fault of newer parent generations trying to "protect" and baby their children for as long as possible, that is leading to what we're having to deal with now. Generations of "children" who are immature, irresponsible, etc.
In all human history before the 1800's, you grew up at 12-14. And if you didn't you were punished to make damn sure you did. This died off in the western world early, but persisted in the East until the early to mid 1900's, and persists today in many Middle Eastern parts. Age Of Sexual Consent is directly tied to their lifestyle and when they start treating "children" as people needing to get responsible and grow up. It points in the direction of how the society teaches children to grow up (or to not to and suffer the consequences of thinking they are when they are still acting like children from all that ingrained behavior pattern that has been set up by being allowed to stay children).
Have you ever typed up a decent amount of content for a reply on one of these threads, spent a little time editing it and thinking about the depth and accuracy of said content, and then simply sat back, said , "Fuck it." and just highlighted and deleted the whole thing?
I did that with this thread. Had some good tirades about the two shows (OG scared straight and this new "beyond" one) and the range of behavioral shortcomings the two shows present the viewer.
Then I realized I was spending an hour on a TL thread again, trying to conceptualize some deep shit that would in fact be glazed over with little to no thought or attention paid to it. Not trollin just accepting the realities of digital interaction: good intentions for having thoughtful discussions on deep subjects that rarely pan out in any kind of beneficial way.
Ironically I still typed up something and posted in spite of deleting the original. Had I been upset over wasted time the first typing around, you can imagine I'm pissed about having just doubled the time spent. LOLZ
I will say this, it seems to me that they basically took the old show concept where the inmates do the scaring, added a new adjective to the SAME FUCKING TITLE, and then showed you what giving authority to human beings results in and have the guards do the scaring.
Ok so maybe there is more to the show but if you've EVER been even CLOSE to the inside of jail you don't want to be spending precious entertainment time being reminded of how shitty and fucked up the whole goddamn institution is.
The Stanford Prison experiment demonstrated rather well just how fucked up people become when given even the slightest amount of authority over their OWN PEERS let alone people they know nothing about.
For those who don't know about the Stanford prison experiment please see http://www.prisonexp.org/links.htm and check that shit out. Specifically, if you don't know about it and have a minimally evolved mammal brain (no lizards, birds, or fish) please also read http://www.prisonexp.org/pdf/geninfo.pdf
On September 09 2011 10:40 SpoR wrote: The thing is if the kids aren't fucking stupid then they know the inmates and cops won't do anything to them and then the whole thing is just a joke. You can stand there and yell back, close your eyes and pretend you are asleep, whatever the fuck you want because they can't touch you and nothing bad will ever happen. Just like stupid fear factor, how is that shit even scary? You are hooked up to the most ridiculous safety rigs in the world.
Also, just from personal experience dealing with yelling from adults when I was an adolescent and teen, I generally just sat there nodding my head and just ignoring the tons of bullshit coming out." In one ear, out the other" as the saying goes. Usually afterwords, I left the office or whatever just going "hey look all I have to deal with when I get in trouble is some stupid fucks yelling/preaching, nothing I haven't heard at home or outside my entire life". It's not even punishment, it's not going to set anyone straight 100% of the time, and it teaches kids to just work the system. Even when threatened with detention or grounding it's nothing because all you do is sit there bored and think of (probably bad shit to do to fill the time).
you must be Einstein. This show isn't reality TV, considering it was around in fucking 1978. That shit isn't fake. Act up and smile in their faces and get your teeth knocked down your fucking throat. Yell back and try to act big and bad. "They can't touch you" - are you a dunce? These are guys in prison for life. I'm sure beating the smirk off of some kid's face is going to make them think twice.
/sarcasm
Reality is not new first of all. Second of all these inmates are obviously doing this for some benefit. If they hit a kid, the prison or someone will be sued and the prisoner will obviously not get his bonus and probably might even be thrown in the hole and beaten down by the guards.
On September 10 2011 04:46 ins(out)side wrote: Have you ever typed up a decent amount of content for a reply on one of these threads, spent a little time editing it and thinking about the depth and accuracy of said content, and then simply sat back, said , "Fuck it." and just highlighted and deleted the whole thing?
I did that with this thread. Had some good tirades about the two shows (OG scared straight and this new "beyond" one) and the range of behavioral shortcomings the two shows present the viewer.
Then I realized I was spending an hour on a TL thread again, trying to conceptualize some deep shit that would in fact be glazed over with little to no thought or attention paid to it.
Yeah I go on tirades all the time then delete it midpost, glad im not the only one. And the funny thing is I kind of felt like skipping through most of your post also :p . Its not just the nature of the internet, its kind of how it has to be when ur talking with so many people, where individuality drowns out until someone says something wrong and gets picked off, ridiculed and eaten by a roaring wave of political correct trolls or hit by a random meaningless reply as this.
This disturbs you? You'll probably want to stay away from anything depicting military bootcamp, let alone experiencing the real deal.
Anyways I love the show. As someone who's experienced something similar through NROTC, it's pretty entertaining to see these kids get a taste of a high stress environment. But it's also more than just that. Seeing success stories at the end of the episode is just great.
No way to take the hardass out of someone faster than to show them they're not the hardest one in the room. I'm pretty liberal and I don't see the down side to the show at all. Got to break someone to rebuild them. Not like they can actually lay hands on the kids so when they drag them aside and get "real" it's not like they're in any danger whatsoever.
On September 09 2011 10:40 SpoR wrote: The thing is if the kids aren't fucking stupid then they know the inmates and cops won't do anything to them and then the whole thing is just a joke. You can stand there and yell back, close your eyes and pretend you are asleep, whatever the fuck you want because they can't touch you and nothing bad will ever happen. Just like stupid fear factor, how is that shit even scary? You are hooked up to the most ridiculous safety rigs in the world.
Also, just from personal experience dealing with yelling from adults when I was an adolescent and teen, I generally just sat there nodding my head and just ignoring the tons of bullshit coming out." In one ear, out the other" as the saying goes. Usually afterwords, I left the office or whatever just going "hey look all I have to deal with when I get in trouble is some stupid fucks yelling/preaching, nothing I haven't heard at home or outside my entire life". It's not even punishment, it's not going to set anyone straight 100% of the time, and it teaches kids to just work the system. Even when threatened with detention or grounding it's nothing because all you do is sit there bored and think of (probably bad shit to do to fill the time).
you must be Einstein. This show isn't reality TV, considering it was around in fucking 1978. That shit isn't fake. Act up and smile in their faces and get your teeth knocked down your fucking throat. Yell back and try to act big and bad. "They can't touch you" - are you a dunce? These are guys in prison for life. I'm sure beating the smirk off of some kid's face is going to make them think twice.
/sarcasm
Reality is not new first of all. Second of all these inmates are obviously doing this for some benefit. If they hit a kid, the prison or someone will be sued and the prisoner will obviously not get his bonus and probably might even be thrown in the hole and beaten down by the guards.
/not scared
The point is to show them the circumstances they would be living in if they continue their ways. Make no mistake about it, if someone in prison wants to hurt another prisoner, the guards won't be able to stop it.
On September 10 2011 07:06 OuchyDathurts wrote: No way to take the hardass out of someone faster than to show them they're not the hardest one in the room. I'm pretty liberal and I don't see the down side to the show at all. Got to break someone to rebuild them. Not like they can actually lay hands on the kids so when they drag them aside and get "real" it's not like they're in any danger whatsoever.
Well, they "could" lay hands on the kids (as in there are no force fields preventing it). However, the prisoners involved in that program are trying to help the kids, not hurt them. Also, hurting children is one of those "unacceptable" actions in the prisoner "code". However, if these kids don't wise up, they could find themselves in places like that, in which case they wouldn't be kids, and would be in for a world of hurt.
On September 10 2011 07:06 OuchyDathurts wrote: No way to take the hardass out of someone faster than to show them they're not the hardest one in the room. I'm pretty liberal and I don't see the down side to the show at all. Got to break someone to rebuild them. Not like they can actually lay hands on the kids so when they drag them aside and get "real" it's not like they're in any danger whatsoever.
Well, they "could" lay hands on the kids (as in there are no force fields preventing it). However, the prisoners involved in that program are trying to help the kids, not hurt them. Also, hurting children is one of those "unacceptable" actions in the prisoner "code". However, if these kids don't wise up, they could find themselves in places like that, in which case they wouldn't be kids, and would be in for a world of hurt.
They're not stupid enough to attack a kid on camera, surrounded by guards. They're literally in no harm in every sense of the word. May as well have force fields around them.
On September 08 2011 04:25 tdynasty wrote: I've even heard of kids dying. The truth is this type of correctional facility being on TV is a good thing. Now the public can openly critise this and in turn more attention will be given to the brutality endured by these kids.
Ahaha, you have a wonderfully high opinion of people who watch reality TV.
I think the show is excellent, gotta go to extremes to be able to reach out to these thugs, they're so in their own bubble that they need to see what'll happen if they keep going.
EPT
