On September 07 2011 07:09 Lucidity wrote: I find this thread insulting. How can you talk down to us Africans as if you're better than us? Our local media has pointed out how we're better off than first world countries. Continue with your ignorance if you must I guess. We don't have 10 children because we expect them to die as infants. We bring these children into the world as our pension plans. You may have your fancy 401K's or "annuities", but we have our families to take care of us in our old age. While your children will one day abandon you at a nursing home with abusive staff, I will be taken care of by my loving family in my eldest son's guest room. Viva Africa!
I think there's a lot of bad information about Africa and most third world countries. People get the idea that they're locked into a never ending cycle of poverty and ill health when they're actually making quite a bit of progress. You don't jump out of poverty overnight. You need the education, infrastructure, and institutions to effectively combat these ills, and those take generations to build up. They're following the same path many modern countries did, albeit much later but also much faster.
Hans Rosling did a great bit at a TED conference a while back.
On September 07 2011 06:07 Voltaire wrote: Distribution of birth control is one way to combat these problems. It's already been done to combat AIDS in certain countries.
On September 07 2011 06:03 AudionovA wrote: We shouldn't need to help, people should (re)produce according to their resources. This applies throughout the world not only in africa. “Beggars should be abolished entirely! Verily, it is annoying to give to them and it is annoying not to give to them” - Friedrich Nietzsche
You're either grossly misinformed, not thinking this through, or just a moron. The population in those countries has to grow so fast and people HAVE to try to have so many kids because there is an extremely high chance that their children will die due to disease or starvation.
Once they have resources, sanitation, and a 1st world country environment, they will realize that they do not need to have so many kids because the kids they have are living through childhood.
From an objective standpoint, what you say is completely true. Contrawise, subjectively its a greivence toward values concerning human life. What im saying is, humans care about other humans, now nobody will argue that alot of them die, but everyone will say that death via pestilence and starvation puts a human through much more suffering then justifiable. This thread wouldn't have been created if everyone was ok with mass reproduction leading to mass death as necessary in that country.
I won't argue that population growth + lack of resources to sustain it will not lead to a high mortality rate, and I won't argue that innocent lives dying is sad. But you are forgetting that to continue the ongoing survival of a population, the population needs to have a next generation equal to or greater than the size of the previous one. The cities in africa know this, though perhaps not in such fancy words.
You say that a population should reproduce at a sustainable rate, and if they can't do so some people will die and that is both sad and wasting the lives of people that could be very successful if they were given a chance. This is absolutely true, but if we limited population growth in africa and people reproduced as their resources allow, they would die out. Why? The people in africa don't have bounds and bounds of food like we do in America. If they had as many children as there are people in the existing population, they could still support it, but about 1/4 of those children would fall prey to disease and other causes of death besides starvation.
Tl;dr: A population needs to have more children than necessary to continue the population, because some of the children will die from disease, war, or other reasons that prevent them from reproducing. In africa the child mortality rate is still very high, even excluding the deaths linked with starvation. So they are forced to have more children in hopes that more of them will survive, and this means that there is less food to go around.
On September 07 2011 06:07 Voltaire wrote: Distribution of birth control is one way to combat these problems. It's already been done to combat AIDS in certain countries.
Distribution IS the problem. Supplies, relief and aid can't get where they need to go because of all of the ongoing wars and poor infrastructure.
Africa is in a terrible state mostly caused by Western involvement in one way or another. Yet I still feel worse when I see animal-abuse advertisements come on TV.
Sorry for the double post but most of Africas' problems are down to mans' greed and hunger for power, but mostly good old mother nature, she has been doing her best to destroy Africa for a long long time.
Africa is in a terrible state mostly caused by Western involvement in one way or another. Yet I still feel worse when I see animal-abuse advertisements come on TV.
On September 07 2011 07:09 Lucidity wrote: I find this thread insulting. How can you talk down to us Africans as if you're better than us? Our local media has pointed out how we're better off than first world countries. Continue with your ignorance if you must I guess. We don't have 10 children because we expect them to die as infants. We bring these children into the world as our pension plans. You may have your fancy 401K's or "annuities", but we have our families to take care of us in our old age. While your children will one day abandon you at a nursing home with abusive staff, I will be taken care of by my loving family in my eldest son's guest room. Viva Africa!
South africa isn't the entire continent. There are plenty of villages in places like Libya and Ethiopa where the situation is horrible, and what you call 'ignorance' holds true.
On September 07 2011 06:07 Voltaire wrote: Distribution of birth control is one way to combat these problems. It's already been done to combat AIDS in certain countries.
Distribution IS the problem. Supplies, relief and aid can't get where they need to go because of all of the ongoing wars and poor infrastructure.
Africa is in a terrible state mostly caused by Western involvement in one way or another. Yet I still feel worse when I see animal-abuse advertisements come on TV.
Poor infrastructure and wars are caused by Africa's backwards, corrupt, totalitarian states. Direct aid simply props up those states by making people reliant on them for (Western) food. In addition, the constant dumping of low-cost or zero-cost Western food simply drives African farmers out of business, since they can't compete with free food. This means that the bad parts of Africa have very little non-subsistence food production of their own, and the second anything hurts that supply (such as famine, war, or even a below-average year in terms of agricultural yield) all hell breaks loose. Africa needs to develop its own food production base and a robust market system for the efficient distribution of that food to areas that need it worst (price mechanisms apply in disasters too). The lack of such a market system means that the continent as a whole is unable to respond to shortages in certain areas, whereas in market equilibrium a regional shortage would cause a price spike in that region, and a corresponding increase in the supply to that region as sellers from other regions race to take advantage of the higher prices.
The powers in the West are fine with the current system because it results in loyal puppet dictatorships (who rely on Western food aid to keep their populations under control), because it plays into the US government's alliance with giant agricultural corporations (who want to sell extra grain to the government rather than lower prices) and because "charities" are able to make a shitload of money siphoning funds. The true consequences are horrific - genocide, famine, fertile grounds for terrorist recruitment, etc.
The only permanent solution for Africa is to leave it alone, and maybe send advisers to help them efficiently utilize their OWN resources, not charity resources (but be careful to do this in a way that does not empower corrupt governments).
Foreigners have been assraping Africa since the dawn of time, it is about time that we learn from history and let them solve their own problems instead of creating more for them. Let them build markets and begin to accumulate capital goods, let them specialize and export, let them trade with and then become a vital part of the world economy. The solution, as always, is freedom.
It must be noted that one of the biggest reasons of Africa's political inestability is the fact that borders where made by foreigners without regards to the actual population. Some country borders are fucking straight lines. It is just inevitable that borders will be reshaped according to local tribes and nationalities, which will be done with even more blood than in western's history given their access to firepower.
On September 07 2011 07:49 GoTuNk! wrote: It must be noted that one of the biggest reasons of Africa's political inestability is the fact that borders where made by foreigners without regards to the actual population. Some country borders are fucking straight lines. It is just inevitable that borders will be reshaped according to local tribes and nationalities, which will be done with even more blood than in western's history given their access to firepower.
Agreed, the shapes of Africa's countries are more a result of arbitrary colonial disputes than natural emergence. An Africa without foreign intervention would likely result in a completely different political map - for a recent example, look at Southern Sudan's separation from Northern Sudan.
On September 07 2011 06:07 Voltaire wrote: Distribution of birth control is one way to combat these problems. It's already been done to combat AIDS in certain countries.
How does a birth control, actually stop aids????
Ever heard of condoms?
On September 07 2011 06:12 manawah wrote: Just my personal observation but for over 30 years since I have been aware of whats going on in Africa they have had the same problems over and over and nothing has changed in that entire time frame. I still see all the same charities asking for money, sponsoring children, send food etc. and for all the trillions of dollars sent over there its no better off today then 30 years ago. This is exactly like the war on drugs. If the people you are trying to help don't/won't make the effort to change or better themselves, no amount of money or assistance you throw at it will change the situation. I wish them well in the recent famine and genocides.. but seen and heard it all before, tragic as it is... they will get through it just as they have in the past and will again in the future, just as their history has proven.
Bull Shit. Africa has been colonized and subjugated for 300 years. Still their resources are being depleted, illegally or otherwise, by other countries. It's not like the people themselves are stupid or anything. Hell, look at Obama. There's a lot of unused potential, that's all. Also there are "help organizations" that actively destroy any attempt to build up an economy. For instance it's almost impossible to become a farmer and sell your harvest if there's food handed out for free. I wonder what the situation would be like if the African countries worst off would switch to democracies - or less corrupted dictatorships and got to keep their resources for themselves for a while. Your argument relies on Africans being some kind of inferior race, which almost forces me to godwin's law myself.
You're arguing that because they've been poor in the past, they will remain so. What kind of fucked up world view is that? Humans used to live in caves. They will always be living in caves. The pattern went on for thousands of years, so there's no hope that'll ever change... Right? But you've seen it all before though, so who am I to question.
On September 07 2011 07:49 GoTuNk! wrote: It must be noted that one of the biggest reasons of Africa's political inestability is the fact that borders where made by foreigners without regards to the actual population. Some country borders are fucking straight lines. It is just inevitable that borders will be reshaped according to local tribes and nationalities, which will be done with even more blood than in western's history given their access to firepower.
That's absolutely true. One of the many problems over there. Africa and it's problems is a very, very complex and difficult topic. I find it very hard to have faith in the future of Africa alone from reading of the problems which have been noted in this thread. And these are only a small fraction of the whole. Another example is the new 'economial colonialism' like it is practiced for example by the chinese. They acquire ressources, mining rights and produce some worthless stuff in these countries by bringing their own people instead of hiring local people. A nice way to amplify the gap between Africa and the industrialized nations.
They need to make a shot that will sterilize you until you're ready to have a family. Starvation and children being born in terrible conditions wouldn't be as much of a problem if they could mass produce the shot at/for a cheap cost. That or they need to get distributed condoms. It's the parents fault that they're having kids when they cant even afford to feed themselves.
On September 07 2011 07:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote: Tl;dr: A population needs to have more children than necessary to continue the population, because some of the children will die from disease, war, or other reasons that prevent them from reproducing. In africa the child mortality rate is still very high, even excluding the deaths linked with starvation. So they are forced to have more children in hopes that more of them will survive, and this means that there is less food to go around.
WTF are you talking about? Population growth is not the same thing as continuation. If a population of 2 billion decreases to 1 billion before stabilizing, it's not going to go extinct. The death rate is clearly lower than the birth rate if the population is still growing, and that results in problems.
The key issue with Africa is that there are more people than the continent can actually support in its current state of development. They don't need more people. If anything, fewer people will result in a higher quality of life for the next generation.
Africa needs to break free of the Malthusian trap before it can do anything else. All the charity we give them to feel better about raping their continent does nothing except result in bigger famines for the next generation. What Africa needs is birth control and infrastructure aid, not more mouths to feed.
the dying millions is terrible but as several other posters have pointed out mass reproduction in the hope of some successful progeny is not an effective way to deal with disease and famine. what they need is lower population infrastructure and EDUCATION. Its hard for me to feel bad for villagers that derp there way through life eking out a meager existence that most likely will never accomplish anything in life other then perpetuate the cycle.
On September 07 2011 07:09 Lucidity wrote: I find this thread insulting. How can you talk down to us Africans as if you're better than us? Our local media has pointed out how we're better off than first world countries. Continue with your ignorance if you must I guess. We don't have 10 children because we expect them to die as infants. We bring these children into the world as our pension plans. You may have your fancy 401K's or "annuities", but we have our families to take care of us in our old age. While your children will one day abandon you at a nursing home with abusive staff, I will be taken care of by my loving family in my eldest son's guest room. Viva Africa!
On September 07 2011 06:07 Voltaire wrote: Distribution of birth control is one way to combat these problems. It's already been done to combat AIDS in certain countries.
Just my personal observation but for over 30 years since I have been aware of whats going on in Africa they have had the same problems over and over and nothing has changed in that entire time frame. I still see all the same charities asking for money, sponsoring children, send food etc. and for all the trillions of dollars sent over there its no better off today then 30 years ago. This is exactly like the war on drugs. If the people you are trying to help don't/won't make the effort to change or better themselves, no amount of money or assistance you throw at it will change the situation. I wish them well in the recent famine and genocides.. but seen and heard it all before, tragic as it is... they will get through it just as they have in the past and will again in the future, just as their history has proven.
Hm pretty dark view on the subject. Mine is even darker :D ... if help organisation would actually do their job they all lose their job, because with no problems their is no money to ask for. So I believe they don't plan to help on a sustainable basis, but rather shorttime, so they can come back every year. Sadest part of this are actually the people working for said organisations, as they are often some of the moral purest and loving people on the planet, just not evil enough to realize they are all part of a big scam. I once even read some left wing bs about how they would swarm the african market with free food once africans try to become independent and grow theire own food so they can keep forcing them to make coffee and dig for jewels...pretty much the bottom slaves sanctioned by "help"-organisations.
EPT
