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On August 17 2011 07:48 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 07:33 Larker wrote:
I really don't understand your point of view. "The government only serves the wealthiest of Americans while the bottom 90% is swindled, therefore, the solution should be to raise tax rates to give the government more power." You realize you're contradicting yourself right?
All forms of government are evil and corrupt to some degree. The conservative viewpoint is lower taxes and smaller government so they have less power in our day to day lives so their corruption is pretty much irrelevant. Yet, you are anti-conservative.
"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."- Thomas Jefferson. I'm not for "lower taxes", I'm for appropriate taxes. If simple math dictates that I need to be taxed more to pay my fair share so that our country doesn't implode, I feel it is my duty to do so. Yes, I'm raging about an unfixable problem. Short of scrapping our entire system of government, there will always be people in Washington beholden to lobbyists, and consequently, beholden to the people with the biggest pocketbooks. Your argument is somewhat circular though. If I got my way and taxes paid by the wealthy increased, the government would be breaking the cycle of coddling. Perhaps I am being naive to think that this could ever happen. This is drifting perilously close to an abstract philosophy discussion though (which I have no use for). If we're not careful, Xarthaz will be in here pasting pages of text from Mises.
"there will always be people in Washington beholden to lobbyists, and consequently, beholden to the people with the biggest pocketbooks." Another reason why we need a smaller government. Their impact would be very little in our everyday lives if our government was a third the size it is today. Hell, they might not even exist if that was the case.
The big problem lies in the reforms of our government that happened during The Great Depression. Ever since these reforms were established the quality of life in our country has been slowly but steadily diminishing to the point where it is going to decrease exponentially eventually. It started out as a great thing for the first few generations but ever since then the recessions in our country have been increasing in length and intensity.
If the government didn't spend a dime and still collected taxes, would our system 'implode'? No. The problem lies within the spending not the taxation, for the most part. Huge corporations are also another big issue. Those that fully operate in and were created in America but are stationed outside of America for tax purposes should be persecuted. Huge corporations are also responsible for the huge difference in wealth for the lower class and upper class. Mom and Pop stores would provide their workers with a living wage and these small companies would compete directly for the business of small towns, creating a wonderful environment where everyone in the community prospered and enjoyed lower prices. These were more recently forced out by huge corporations such as Wal-Mart and Target creating much less of competition at the community level and creating a class of people who are being forced into taking jobs from these companies because there is no other alternative.
By the way your argument for 'appropriate taxes' should be reconsidered since roughly 50% of Americans paid absolutely no taxes in 2009. [Source]
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On August 17 2011 08:50 Sgany wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:49 DeLoReAn wrote:
What are you talking about Sgany? lol 100 top universities for, for Free? Where do you get your information from? Harvard is completely needs blind and free for anyone under 60k collective income, in the UK all universities offer loans were you do not have to pay back the extremely low fee until you are making over a certain amount of money, and the interest is extremely low.
Honestly, I do not know the deal in UK, and yea Harvard makes sure that IF, and that is 8% of applicants, you get into the university you dont have to pay BUT for the most part most universities do not cover all your costs. People are stuck with debt after college here and you are not entitled to getting into private schools it is highly competitive in the US.
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On August 17 2011 06:48 OrchidThief wrote:
Wow this is only on the first page, and I'm already facepalming from some of the responses.
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Not going to lie. It's pretty sad.
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On August 17 2011 08:51 Zeri wrote:I would suggest reading this blog post by Sam Harris which is titled 'A New Year's Resolution for the Rich' "Imagine being safely seated in lifeboat, while countless others drown, only to learn that another lifeboat has been secured to take your luggage to shore…"
Well put Sam.
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On August 17 2011 08:52 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:43 Kaitlin wrote:
It's not just about tax benefits for the rich, it's about encouraging economic growth through investment.
Newsflash, Bush tried this crap (economic growth through investment) for 8 years and it didn't work. You aren't going to fool me twice. The tax benefits for the rich are not encouraging economic growth, it just pads their retirement accounts, nothing more.
You can't just dump money into retirement accounts. There are annual limits, which in proportion to how much the rich have, it's pretty low. However, even their retirement accounts aren't just sitting in a safe, they are being invested into the economy. That is how they build up over time, right ?
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United States7483 Posts
On August 17 2011 08:47 Sgany wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.
This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities. Then it is your own fault, for choosing that career, very well it is the job you want to do but still you choose to do it. and anyone in the UK or US has access to top 100 universities easily, for free.
Again, your opinion on this matter is uneducated. Not everyone has an equal opportunity to attend those top 100 universities simply by working hard, and not everyone has the ability to excel in school to the point of getting in to the top 100 universities. That doesn't mean they don't work hard.
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On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.
Hey, I like being completely uninformed too. Did you even read what Buffet said? Buffet is among the uber rich, and paid like 17% taxes on his money. If you are not a student and have a job, odds are that a greater percentage of your income is going to the government.
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed less.
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On August 17 2011 08:55 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:47 Sgany wrote:On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.
This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities. Then it is your own fault, for choosing that career, very well it is the job you want to do but still you choose to do it. and anyone in the UK or US has access to top 100 universities easily, for free. Again, your opinion on this matter is uneducated. Not everyone has an equal opportunity to attend those top 100 universities simply by working hard, and not everyone has the ability to excel in school to the point of getting in to the top 100 universities. That doesn't mean they don't work hard.
I do nothing but study and I am from a normal income family and I am highly favored to be accepted into LSE, Cambridge, Harvard and Stanford. I do nothing special asides for study *shrug*
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On August 17 2011 08:49 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:46 Hypertension wrote:This debate is a little silly. Anyone can say that the rich should pay more taxes. The real question is how to make them. + Show Spoiler +By the way, if Warren Buffet was really going to give his money to charity or to the government, he would have done it already. What is the point of waiting until he is dead. The only reward is fame, and better for him to get that now. He knows his family will contest the will and win. Could you please enlighten me as to how his family can contest the will and win? I'm Canadian so I don't know anything about how that sort of thing works in America.
They won't. People can contest for certain cases when there is some question as to the decedent's true desires, such as were they crazy, under some influence, etc. If Buffett has been publicly stating that he is giving his wealth to charity for a long time, I would be quite surprised if anyone could contest it successfully.
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You cant enter one of these threads without some party bias in the op. As if this was purely a republican problem or a democrat one.
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On August 17 2011 08:54 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:52 rhs408 wrote:On August 17 2011 08:43 Kaitlin wrote:
It's not just about tax benefits for the rich, it's about encouraging economic growth through investment.
Newsflash, Bush tried this crap (economic growth through investment) for 8 years and it didn't work. You aren't going to fool me twice. The tax benefits for the rich are not encouraging economic growth, it just pads their retirement accounts, nothing more. You can't just dump money into retirement accounts. There are annual limits, which in proportion to how much the rich have, it's pretty low. However, even their retirement accounts aren't just sitting in a safe, they are being invested into the economy. That is how they build up over time, right ?
If those who are rich were actually investing their money/retirement into the economy then our country would absolutely not be in the state that it is in today :/ One way or another, they are pocketing their wealth and laughing on the way to the bank.
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Hey guys! this discussion is really stupid. Let's move somewhere else where the discussion is on a higher level in terms of knowledge, critical thinking, and sensibility. Let's move the discussion to a youtube video! What do you guys say?
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United States7483 Posts
On August 17 2011 08:58 Sgany wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 17 2011 08:47 Sgany wrote:On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.
This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities. Then it is your own fault, for choosing that career, very well it is the job you want to do but still you choose to do it. and anyone in the UK or US has access to top 100 universities easily, for free. Again, your opinion on this matter is uneducated. Not everyone has an equal opportunity to attend those top 100 universities simply by working hard, and not everyone has the ability to excel in school to the point of getting in to the top 100 universities. That doesn't mean they don't work hard. I do nothing but study and I am from a normal income family and I am highly favored to be accepted into LSE, Cambridge, Harvard and Stanford. I do nothing special asides for study *shrug*
Not everyone out there is from a "normal income family". There are many people who receive a poorer quality education from the beginning who have a harder time getting into college because of lower ACT/SAT II scores. There are some people who have learning disabilities who might try their best but couldn't make it into an Ivy League school no matter how hard they try. Some people have serious problems in their life that might force them to drop out of school at 16 or not go to college at all.
People do not have equal opportunities.
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On August 17 2011 08:52 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:
This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.
This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities. I used to believe that teachers are underpaid argument. I'm not so sure I do anymore. As I understand it, they have an entire summer off, somewhat less than the full 9 hour schedule that other jobs have, job security, excellent retirement and benefits, actually a pretty good salary, and not an incredibly stressful job. Maybe I'm wrong, but when you have enough to sapre to pay union dues, you aren't poor.
youre retarded, here let me enlighten you.
teachers(except for university professors) have to spend their entire summer working, making sure every classroom has enough desks, preparing next years curriculums, filling the students forms for the next school their going to(for elementary and middle schools).
If you think that teaching isn't stressful, well, either you never went to school or your peers were extremely disciplined. 'cuz when i go to my school, i notice how stressed the teachers are with dealing with people not doing their HW, people trying to get the discussion offtopic, people staring off into space, people getting sick... etc.
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Workers and professionals (such as a lawyer or doctor) pays the highest amount of taxes.
Investor pays the lowest % of taxes (sometime 0%) and most of the time they make 10 times the amount of cash
the rich get richer. thats the Babylone econimic system popularized by the british emperor,.
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On August 17 2011 08:58 Sgany wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 17 2011 08:47 Sgany wrote:On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.
This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities. Then it is your own fault, for choosing that career, very well it is the job you want to do but still you choose to do it. and anyone in the UK or US has access to top 100 universities easily, for free. Again, your opinion on this matter is uneducated. Not everyone has an equal opportunity to attend those top 100 universities simply by working hard, and not everyone has the ability to excel in school to the point of getting in to the top 100 universities. That doesn't mean they don't work hard. I do nothing but study and I am from a normal income family and I am highly favored to be accepted into LSE, Cambridge, Harvard and Stanford. I do nothing special asides for study *shrug*
Look, its a team liquid member from a privileged background claiming his experience is universal; a rare occurrence indeed... no wait, that's completely normal here.
Colleges in the US leave many students terribly burdened with debt, not even "exclusive schools" but you're going to say they are both easy to get into and free? C'mon man, that shits just ridiculous.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 17 2011 09:04 Dragom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:52 Kaitlin wrote:On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:
This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.
This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities. I used to believe that teachers are underpaid argument. I'm not so sure I do anymore. As I understand it, they have an entire summer off, somewhat less than the full 9 hour schedule that other jobs have, job security, excellent retirement and benefits, actually a pretty good salary, and not an incredibly stressful job. Maybe I'm wrong, but when you have enough to sapre to pay union dues, you aren't poor. youre retarded, here let me enlighten you. teachers(except for university professors) have to spend their entire summer working, making sure every classroom has enough desks, preparing next years curriculums, filling the students forms for the next school their going to(for elementary and middle schools). If you think that teaching isn't stressful, well, either you never went to school or your peers were extremely disciplined. 'cuz when i go to my school, i notice how stressed the teachers are with dealing with people not doing their HW, people trying to get the discussion offtopic, people staring off into space, people getting sick... etc.
As Dragom said, teaching is a very stressful job, and you don't get the summer off, you spend the summer preparing for school next year, spending a good number of hours on it too. It's not a good salary at all, it's not less than a 9 hour schedule (6-8 hours in school and then grading/correcting papers and preparing lesson plans etc.)
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On August 17 2011 09:02 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:58 Sgany wrote:On August 17 2011 08:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 17 2011 08:47 Sgany wrote:On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.
This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities. Then it is your own fault, for choosing that career, very well it is the job you want to do but still you choose to do it. and anyone in the UK or US has access to top 100 universities easily, for free. Again, your opinion on this matter is uneducated. Not everyone has an equal opportunity to attend those top 100 universities simply by working hard, and not everyone has the ability to excel in school to the point of getting in to the top 100 universities. That doesn't mean they don't work hard. I do nothing but study and I am from a normal income family and I am highly favored to be accepted into LSE, Cambridge, Harvard and Stanford. I do nothing special asides for study *shrug* Not everyone out there is from a "normal income family". There are many people who receive a poorer quality education from the beginning who have a harder time getting into college because of lower ACT/SAT II scores. There are some people who have learning disabilities who might try their best but couldn't make it into an Ivy League school no matter how hard they try. Some people have serious problems in their life that might force them to drop out of school at 16 or not go to college at all. People do not have equal opportunities.
I agree on your points. I had learning difficulties when I was younger, mainly my spelling which is still kinda bad. But I grew up with up with a girl who had a poor family, a disabled father, a mother who had mental problems, she moreless had to raise her two siblings but now she is studying law in one of the best universities in the country, so people can do it if they work hard enough.
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the public school teachers in my area average around 80 grand a year, with the most experienced ones making 100+ grand lol... and then once they retire, they are gonna be ridiculously compensated. obviously this is rare exception though.
also, when teachers have taught a subject for 10+ years, they have nothing to prepare for next years curriculum. i don't understand what you mean by entire summer working? are they working for their school district getting paid? are they working some other jobs?
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EPT
