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Warren Buffett - "Stop Coddling the Super-Rich" - Page 11

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Dragom
Profile Joined December 2010
194 Posts
August 16 2011 23:40 GMT
#201
On August 17 2011 08:33 semantics wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 08:19 procyonlotor wrote:
It makes perfect sense to me for wealthier citizens to pay more taxes. It might sound unfair, but hey, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and contrary to what others might think, the wealth doesn't just "trickle down".

The only way you can cut debt is raise taxes or cut spending (preferably both). I know there was a surplus during Clinton's administration, so I don't see why the same shouldn't be achievable in the future with sensible policies. It's a shame there is such crippling polarization in the US, though. Where are the sensible moderates when you need them?

loud minorities tend to take the spotlight, and for some reason the media treats them as the majority probably because they have more zaz.


I hope you realized that when Nixon Said a "silent Majority" was backing him, his approval rating were almost 0....
"The second thing to go is your memory...ergh, I can't remember what the first thing is..."
Sgany
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom790 Posts
August 16 2011 23:42 GMT
#202
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.
NaDa <3, MMA <3, Bisu <3,
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
August 16 2011 23:42 GMT
#203
Warren Buffet made his living simply by using his common sense. His statements concerning political and financial issues have always reflected that.

He once noted that his secretary pays a higher percentage of her income than he does - because payroll taxes make more of an impact to lower/middle class whereas to the wealthy it's completely insignificant.

We needed to raise taxes years ago. It's almost too late at this point, but we should still do it. Unfortunately this country has been tainted by right-wing corporate-rhetoric, where we value the freedom and solvency of our institutions more than the freedom and solvency of our people.
Big water
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
August 16 2011 23:43 GMT
#204
On August 17 2011 08:13 BuddhaMonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 08:09 Kaitlin wrote:
On August 17 2011 08:04 BuddhaMonk wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:58 Kaitlin wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:54 BuddhaMonk wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:50 Kaitlin wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:44 turdburgler wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:40 Kaitlin wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:34 mathemagician1986 wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:30 Kaitlin wrote:
[quote]

Could you give an example of what you mean by a 'fair tax system' wherein everyone 'should pay a certain tax'. I don't know what that means. I'll disregard the usage of the word citizen as I don't even want to touch that issue.


In my opinion a tax system should incorporate one fundamental thing: people with a higher income in absolute numbers should be taxed at a higher rate than people with a lower income in absolute numbers.

What these numbers specifically are depends in the country. In Germany we have 5 different tax classes, with the highest capping at 52% iirc.


Ok, what about deductions for such things as charitable contributions, tax-deferred retirement accounts, unreimbursed employee business expenses, such as teachers having to purchase school supplies out of their own pockets. Should these, among other things be subtracted out for purposes of calculating how much income taxes should be paid ? What about providing incentive for home ownership by providing for mortgage interest and real estate taxes being deductible ? How about child care expenses so that families with children have more money to take care of their children, whereas people with the same income, but no kids, don't have such expenses to worry about ?

How would some of these issues fit into your tax system ? I'm just assuming when you say "higher income in absolute numbers" you don't take such things into account.

The thing is, the more of these things that get factored in, you get closer and closer to what we currently have and it results in those with higher incomes getting more benefit from such things, and we're back where we started. Arguing about silly %'s of taxes paid relative to income instead understanding that those with the most, do pay the most.


i think your list of tax deductible things is too specific to get into in a more general thread on the issue ; /

the main point seems to be that as you get richer, the cost of keeping yourself alive doesnt go up, so a linear tax increase makes no sense. tax increases should be exponential or something, because it not only becomes difficult to find more expensive food as you get richer, but some costs such as medical bills can go down


But the point is, tax deductions, tax exempt income, etc. are the very things that rich people direct their money towards to reduce their tax burden as much as possible. This is exactly what creates this illusory lower % of income being paid by Buffett this his secretary. The fact is, comparing bottom line income taxes paid relative to "taxable income", I'd nearly guarantee Buffett's rate is higher than his secretary.


How is it an illusion if the super rich use these tools to lower their tax burden. The fact is through these tools they pay less tax. This is the point Buffett was making. Just because if they hadn't used those tools they would pay more than their secretaries doesn't make it so.


It's illusory because we're not comparing taxable income of Buffett to taxable income of his secretary or co-workers. Comparing "taxable income" will result in Buffett's % being higher.


Actually, Buffett was saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming. So your argument boils down to "Buffett is a liar", with no evidence to actually back up what you're saying.


With the exception of capital gains, it's mathematically impossible for a higher taxable income to have a lower % of income taxes than a lower taxable income. If you want evidence, I submit that the tax rates increase for each successive tax bracket, given that it's a "progressive" tax rate structure. What other evidence could there possibly be ? Pull out a Form 1040 and see for yourself.


Buffett was talking for the most part about capital gains. So why do you exclude that from the discussion?


A couple responses ago, I was talking about comparing taxable income to taxable income and taxes paid by Buffett and his "secretary" as the comparison. In Buffett's editorial, quoted below, he includes "payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf". He is including the employer-paid payroll taxes to distort the math. It's complete bullshit. Since payroll taxes are capped at such a low number, and account for about 15% of earnings, with no reduction for deductions, it will be 15% of his secretary's entire income, and the secretary isn't even paying half of that. It's paid by the employer. So, his secretary's percentage is bumped by 15% for payroll taxes, even though she only pays half of it, while it barely changes Buffett's percentage, since his taxable income is astronomical, and the payroll taxes only amount to a few thousand dollars.

I was simply stating that he manipulates the comparison to maximize the "political effect" of what he is trying to accomplish, which is inevitably to help the President garner support to raise taxes. The lay public reads his column, doesn't understand the details of the numbers, and begins to believe the class warfare arguments.

Capital gains receive preference because the government wants to encourage investment in the economy. Sure, the investors (sometimes rich investors) get benefit from these preferences, but mostly the true beneficiary is the businessman whose idea was funded by this investor and they were able to spur economic growth. It's not just about tax benefits for the rich, it's about encouraging economic growth through investment.

Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.
rhs408
Profile Joined January 2011
United States904 Posts
August 16 2011 23:44 GMT
#205
On August 17 2011 08:32 hacpee wrote:

Warren Buffet is a liberal. His mentality is that he wants the government to take other people's money but HANDS OFF GOVERNMENT, I decide what to do with my own money.


His mentality is that he doesn't mind giving a bit of his wealth back to the country from whom he was able to make so much money off of.

Hacpee maybe you should move to a country that has zero taxes, that way ALL of your money will be yours! Just one thing, it may be a bit more difficult to make as much money as you were making in America. America is an awesome place to make money... even if you get taxed a bit more than others because you make an obscene amount of money, you still come out way ahead in the end compared to if you were doing business in some other backward, tax free or low tax country.
Dragom
Profile Joined December 2010
194 Posts
August 16 2011 23:44 GMT
#206
On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.



when you have as much money as they do, there is no way to spend all your money unless youre going buy stuff in bulk... which would have no use whatsoever
"The second thing to go is your memory...ergh, I can't remember what the first thing is..."
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
August 16 2011 23:45 GMT
#207
On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.


This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.

This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Hypertension
Profile Joined April 2011
United States802 Posts
August 16 2011 23:46 GMT
#208
This debate is a little silly. Anyone can say that the rich should pay more taxes. The real question is how to make them.

+ Show Spoiler +
By the way, if Warren Buffet was really going to give his money to charity or to the government, he would have done it already. What is the point of waiting until he is dead. The only reward is fame, and better for him to get that now. He knows his family will contest the will and win.
Buy boots first. Boots good item.
Sgany
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom790 Posts
August 16 2011 23:47 GMT
#209
On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.


This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.


This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities.


Then it is your own fault, for choosing that career, very well it is the job you want to do but still you choose to do it.

and anyone in the UK or US has access to top 100 universities easily, for free.
NaDa <3, MMA <3, Bisu <3,
Dagobert
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Netherlands1858 Posts
August 16 2011 23:48 GMT
#210
On August 17 2011 06:46 FoeHamr wrote:
don't richest people in this country pay the most taxes already?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

No. Read "One Trillion Dollars" by Andreas Eschbach.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
August 16 2011 23:48 GMT
#211
On August 17 2011 08:14 Expurgate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 08:06 Kaitlin wrote:
Honestly, I think Buffett should publish his fucking tax return if he wants to throw this out there.


Why do you seem so angry in all these political-economic threads?


It might be just how I write, or it could be a certain level of frustration that comes out at times. I assume you're referring to my use of 'fucking' up there. I probably could have done without it, but I just think it's b.s. for someone to come out and make such a political statement knowing full well, nobody can check his numbers.

I think the same thing about Trump's comments about his financials. He said if he ran for President he would have to disclose all of his financials, and I simply don't believe for one second that he is willing to do that. These people throw statements out there that simply cannot be checked.
DeLoReAn
Profile Joined October 2010
United States81 Posts
August 16 2011 23:49 GMT
#212
What are you talking about Sgany? lol 100 top universities for, for Free? Where do you get your information from?
Dota2 is my escape.
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
August 16 2011 23:49 GMT
#213
On August 17 2011 08:43 Kaitlin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 08:13 BuddhaMonk wrote:
On August 17 2011 08:09 Kaitlin wrote:
On August 17 2011 08:04 BuddhaMonk wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:58 Kaitlin wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:54 BuddhaMonk wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:50 Kaitlin wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:44 turdburgler wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:40 Kaitlin wrote:
On August 17 2011 07:34 mathemagician1986 wrote:
[quote]

In my opinion a tax system should incorporate one fundamental thing: people with a higher income in absolute numbers should be taxed at a higher rate than people with a lower income in absolute numbers.

What these numbers specifically are depends in the country. In Germany we have 5 different tax classes, with the highest capping at 52% iirc.


Ok, what about deductions for such things as charitable contributions, tax-deferred retirement accounts, unreimbursed employee business expenses, such as teachers having to purchase school supplies out of their own pockets. Should these, among other things be subtracted out for purposes of calculating how much income taxes should be paid ? What about providing incentive for home ownership by providing for mortgage interest and real estate taxes being deductible ? How about child care expenses so that families with children have more money to take care of their children, whereas people with the same income, but no kids, don't have such expenses to worry about ?

How would some of these issues fit into your tax system ? I'm just assuming when you say "higher income in absolute numbers" you don't take such things into account.

The thing is, the more of these things that get factored in, you get closer and closer to what we currently have and it results in those with higher incomes getting more benefit from such things, and we're back where we started. Arguing about silly %'s of taxes paid relative to income instead understanding that those with the most, do pay the most.


i think your list of tax deductible things is too specific to get into in a more general thread on the issue ; /

the main point seems to be that as you get richer, the cost of keeping yourself alive doesnt go up, so a linear tax increase makes no sense. tax increases should be exponential or something, because it not only becomes difficult to find more expensive food as you get richer, but some costs such as medical bills can go down


But the point is, tax deductions, tax exempt income, etc. are the very things that rich people direct their money towards to reduce their tax burden as much as possible. This is exactly what creates this illusory lower % of income being paid by Buffett this his secretary. The fact is, comparing bottom line income taxes paid relative to "taxable income", I'd nearly guarantee Buffett's rate is higher than his secretary.


How is it an illusion if the super rich use these tools to lower their tax burden. The fact is through these tools they pay less tax. This is the point Buffett was making. Just because if they hadn't used those tools they would pay more than their secretaries doesn't make it so.


It's illusory because we're not comparing taxable income of Buffett to taxable income of his secretary or co-workers. Comparing "taxable income" will result in Buffett's % being higher.


Actually, Buffett was saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming. So your argument boils down to "Buffett is a liar", with no evidence to actually back up what you're saying.


With the exception of capital gains, it's mathematically impossible for a higher taxable income to have a lower % of income taxes than a lower taxable income. If you want evidence, I submit that the tax rates increase for each successive tax bracket, given that it's a "progressive" tax rate structure. What other evidence could there possibly be ? Pull out a Form 1040 and see for yourself.


Buffett was talking for the most part about capital gains. So why do you exclude that from the discussion?


A couple responses ago, I was talking about comparing taxable income to taxable income and taxes paid by Buffett and his "secretary" as the comparison. In Buffett's editorial, quoted below, he includes "payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf". He is including the employer-paid payroll taxes to distort the math. It's complete bullshit. Since payroll taxes are capped at such a low number, and account for about 15% of earnings, with no reduction for deductions, it will be 15% of his secretary's entire income, and the secretary isn't even paying half of that. It's paid by the employer. So, his secretary's percentage is bumped by 15% for payroll taxes, even though she only pays half of it, while it barely changes Buffett's percentage, since his taxable income is astronomical, and the payroll taxes only amount to a few thousand dollars.

I was simply stating that he manipulates the comparison to maximize the "political effect" of what he is trying to accomplish, which is inevitably to help the President garner support to raise taxes. The lay public reads his column, doesn't understand the details of the numbers, and begins to believe the class warfare arguments.

Capital gains receive preference because the government wants to encourage investment in the economy. Sure, the investors (sometimes rich investors) get benefit from these preferences, but mostly the true beneficiary is the businessman whose idea was funded by this investor and they were able to spur economic growth. It's not just about tax benefits for the rich, it's about encouraging economic growth through investment.

Show nested quote +
Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.


You're ignoring even more than Warren Buffet was, and you really don't dispute his editorial at all. Yes, it is assumed that employers pay half of payroll taxes, but that still leaves the other half, and that still creates a significant percentage that effects the "working class" more than others.

But mostly, you're focusing on that aspect and ignoring the fact that Warren Buffet only pays 17.4 percent of his income. You don't dispute that at all. Because most of his income doesn't come from a paycheck, he pays significantly less taxes than people who actually do live off a paycheck - who pay 33% income tax MINIMUM. That was Warren's main point, which you skipped over completely.
Big water
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
August 16 2011 23:49 GMT
#214
On August 17 2011 08:46 Hypertension wrote:
This debate is a little silly. Anyone can say that the rich should pay more taxes. The real question is how to make them.

+ Show Spoiler +
By the way, if Warren Buffet was really going to give his money to charity or to the government, he would have done it already. What is the point of waiting until he is dead. The only reward is fame, and better for him to get that now. He knows his family will contest the will and win.



Could you please enlighten me as to how his family can contest the will and win? I'm Canadian so I don't know anything about how that sort of thing works in America.
kiss kiss fall in love
Sgany
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom790 Posts
August 16 2011 23:50 GMT
#215
On August 17 2011 08:49 DeLoReAn wrote:
What are you talking about Sgany? lol 100 top universities for, for Free? Where do you get your information from?


Harvard is completely needs blind and free for anyone under 60k collective income, in the UK all universities offer loans were you do not have to pay back the extremely low fee until you are making over a certain amount of money, and the interest is extremely low.
NaDa <3, MMA <3, Bisu <3,
Dragom
Profile Joined December 2010
194 Posts
August 16 2011 23:51 GMT
#216
On August 17 2011 08:44 rhs408 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 08:32 hacpee wrote:

Warren Buffet is a liberal. His mentality is that he wants the government to take other people's money but HANDS OFF GOVERNMENT, I decide what to do with my own money.


His mentality is that he doesn't mind giving a bit of his wealth back to the country from whom he was able to make so much money off of.

Hacpee maybe you should move to a country that has zero taxes, that way ALL of your money will be yours! Just one thing, it may be a bit more difficult to make as much money as you were making in America. America is an awesome place to make money... even if you get taxed a bit more than others because you make an obscene amount of money, you still come out way ahead in the end compared to if you were doing business in some other backward, tax free or low tax country.



Lol i can just imagine that:

hacspee; YEAHHH NOW ALL MY MONEY IS MINE, I LUVE THIS NO TAX COUNTRY :D
A random mob of poor people show up and rob hacpee*
hacpee: wait wheres the police??
Random bystander(troll): There is none, the government cut it a lnog time ago dude...
hacpee: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
"The second thing to go is your memory...ergh, I can't remember what the first thing is..."
Zeri
Profile Joined March 2010
United States773 Posts
August 16 2011 23:51 GMT
#217
I would suggest reading this blog post by Sam Harris which is titled 'A New Year's Resolution for the Rich'

"Imagine being safely seated in lifeboat, while countless others drown, only to learn that another lifeboat has been secured to take your luggage to shore…"

You can think I'm wrong, but that's no reason to quit thinking.
rhs408
Profile Joined January 2011
United States904 Posts
August 16 2011 23:52 GMT
#218
On August 17 2011 08:43 Kaitlin wrote:
It's not just about tax benefits for the rich, it's about encouraging economic growth through investment.

Newsflash, Bush tried this crap (economic growth through investment) for 8 years and it didn't work. You aren't going to fool me twice. The tax benefits for the rich are not encouraging economic growth, it just pads their retirement accounts, nothing more.
HoldenR
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands256 Posts
August 16 2011 23:52 GMT
#219
On August 17 2011 08:47 Sgany wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:
On August 17 2011 08:42 Sgany wrote:
I have never understood why rich people should be taxed more for being succesful.........People choose in the USA and UK etc to be poor by not working in school etc.


This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.


This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities.


Then it is your own fault, for choosing that career, very well it is the job you want to do but still you choose to do it.

and anyone in the UK or US has access to top 100 universities easily, for free.


I don't care that I'm going to get banned for this, but you're a fucking retard.

User was temp banned for this post.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
August 16 2011 23:52 GMT
#220
On August 17 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:
This is an uneducated opinion. Many people who work very hard still wind up being poor or low middle class. Take teachers for example, it's a labor of love. The money they earn (at least in the US) is very low amounts, it's enough to live off of and they aren't broke for example, but it is a low middle class income/high lower class. Does that mean they want to be poor? No, they want to teach, it just happens that nobody pays teachers well.

This was just one example, there are thousands of ways one can wind up being low class or low middle class even though you work very hard. Let's not pretend everyone has the same opportunities.


I used to believe that teachers are underpaid argument. I'm not so sure I do anymore. As I understand it, they have an entire summer off, somewhat less than the full 9 hour schedule that other jobs have, job security, excellent retirement and benefits, actually a pretty good salary, and not an incredibly stressful job. Maybe I'm wrong, but when you have enough to sapre to pay union dues, you aren't poor.
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