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The US debt (proper debate) - Page 48

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{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 01 2011 01:03 GMT
#941
Debt deal reached.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
_Major
Profile Joined April 2011
United States107 Posts
August 01 2011 02:34 GMT
#942
On August 01 2011 03:10 cfoy3 wrote:
@ _Major

I disagree with your premise that we should loose our AAA rating. American is the biggest economy (I think as of today, China may soon eclipse), has unprecedented ability to generate income and has worldwide recognition and trust. All of your arguments are why we should get our long term fiscal policy in order. Not why we should default on the full faith and credit of the United States. There is nothing wrong with advocating that we need to reign in spending and get our deficit under control. This is a sensible conviction. However, your approach of stating the US should default does not do justice to the myriad of alternatives. We do not need such a drastic reduction in the size of the government, which ironically would do more to harm our ability to pay off our debt than help. Every time you cut government spending that is someone who loses a job. Now while I agree that does need to happen eventually, right now would be a horrible time. Look to Japan, their government did exactly what you are suggesting-drastically reduce the size of the government during a recession and they still haven't recovered. Politicians should be up front and truthful-we cannot afford the time of government that we currently have.


America is the biggest economy. So what? The rating is based off the ability to payback money loaned, not our ability to get more loans. The facts are that we can't do this without borrowing money. Your argument sounds like a kid arguing for an A+ because their parents will punish them for anything less, even though they deserve an A- at most. If you want the highest rating then you have to act accordingly, it's not supposed to be an entitlement for being the biggest economy.

We've already started this process of defaulting our faith and credit. Nobody believes that we'll be able to fulfill our Social Security and Medicare promises to the young Americans working and starting families today without defaulting and changing the original deal.

This new deal smells so bad. Give us the ability to borrow up to $2.4 trillion more, and we'll cut $1.2 trillion over the next decade. Don't worry about the interest or the fact that we're scheduled to have a ~$1.5 trillion deficit this year, we've changed - we promise. /sigh
Do you practice on Macro Or Die maps? You should - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216550
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-01 02:46:24
August 01 2011 02:45 GMT
#943
On August 01 2011 11:34 _Major wrote:
America is the biggest economy. So what?


Having the biggest economy = having the most revenue. It's quite standard to assign higher credit ratings to people or institutions with more revenue.

On August 01 2011 11:34 _Major wrote:
This new deal smells so bad. Give us the ability to borrow up to $2.4 trillion more, and we'll cut $1.2 trillion over the next decade. Don't worry about the interest or the fact that we're scheduled to have a ~$1.5 trillion deficit this year, we've changed - we promise. /sigh


That's not the new deal. You've either been misinformed or are misinterpreting.

The new deal raises the debt ceiling by 1 trillion immediately and reduces the deficit by the same amount immediately, and then raises the debt ceiling by 1.8 trillion and cuts the same amount next year.
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5710 Posts
August 01 2011 02:49 GMT
#944
On August 01 2011 04:29 Senorcuidado wrote:
http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/congress-closing-deal-avert-us-default-163724983.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=us&.lang=en-us

We might be able to put this whole charade behind us pretty soon but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It just shows that you can repeatedly hold the country hostage and get rewarded for it. I'm pretty pissed off at everybody involved right now.


This. Democrats were the ones who were willing to compromise the most and we got shafted because the Republicans knew this. Why negotiate when the other person will eventually give in...

Nothing changed in Washington, everything is business as usual and nothing is going to change for the better.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
cfoy3
Profile Joined January 2010
United States129 Posts
August 01 2011 02:55 GMT
#945
@_Major

The world doesn't end August 2nd. America is still here and we will be here for the foreseeable future. The AAA rating is based on how these institutions feel about our ability to pay back the loan. We do not have to do it at once. We can take our time paying it off. A more apt comparison is a students likely hood to get an A in a class. He has an extremely high IQ. A record for good behavior and good grades. If he fails a test should he be immediately disciplined? Should the parents freak out? No. Especially when the student starts taking immediate steps to be better prepared for the next test. Like allocating more time to studying.
??
cfoy3
Profile Joined January 2010
United States129 Posts
August 01 2011 03:01 GMT
#946
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v​=LrIquFjy-5w

Senator Coburn is my hero. I would advise everyone to watch this.
??
Senorcuidado
Profile Joined May 2010
United States700 Posts
August 01 2011 18:22 GMT
#947
On August 01 2011 09:00 cfoy3 wrote:
@ Senorcuidado

I do not think they will be rewarded with it long term. The democrats and Obama will push this issue hard next election. They also probably lost the senior vote. Ultimately they only get rewarded if you decide to cast your vote for them next election.


I wish I still believed that. It might backfire on them in the presidential race, maybe, although the economy will more likely decide the victor. Congress, however, wil still be insane. Too many districts are too safe, with the primary voters mattering more than the general electorate. What scares them is not the challenge of a moderate (they can label them socialists) but rather the challenge of a radical outflanking them and stealing their base. I don't think most of them believe the garbage they spew out, but they have to spew it because that's what their core constituency wants to hear. The voters and the media are at least as guilty as the politicians, if they were rational they would have kicked out the crazies a long time ago.

The democrats probably won't punish them effectively because historically they really suck at it. They can't really pretend to be the anti-war party anymore, at least Obama can't. They won't say Republicans held unemployed people hostage in order to secure the extension of tax cuts for the rich in 2010, and brought the country within a day of collapsing TWICE in 2011 in order to cut programs that help the people hardest hit by the recession. They won't say sweeping cuts means sweeping job losses which means a worse economy. They won't remind us of the two years we lost while every single bill in the Senate was filibustered to death with a 41-59 minority. They might accuse the Republicans of sabotaging the economy so they could take the White House, but while that's probably true it won't play well with moderates. Look at 2010, crazy paid off big in the midterm elections. 41 Senators spent two years with the sole purpose of stopping the government from functioning, then pointed at the governing party and said "look, they're not getting anything done!" The only thing crazier than that is the fact that so many voters fell for it. It sounds like I'm bashing Republicans, but like I said I'm mad at everyone involved. I know so many reasonable conservatives that agree with most of what I just said. Who are they supposed to vote for? Who am I supposed to vote for? Ham sandwich 2012.

Listening to the radio on the way to work I heard Rush Limbaugh repeatedly insist that the compromise was all a big trick orchestrated by Obama to score the biggest tax increase in the history of America. Like it or not THAT is the guy voters listen to and come November he will tell them what they think. I don't have high hopes.

One thing about Mitt Romney: Rush Limbaugh hates his guts so he can't be all that bad.
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
August 01 2011 18:54 GMT
#948
Next fall, a committee created by the deal will recommend future spending cuts... Past commitees have been a mixed bag of success, so there's plenty of skepticism that they can deliver on appropriate cuts.

Expect another pointless public fight in a couple months.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
DoraTheExploreHer
Profile Joined August 2011
10 Posts
August 01 2011 20:27 GMT
#949
--- Nuked ---
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 01 2011 21:05 GMT
#950
On August 02 2011 03:22 Senorcuidado wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2011 09:00 cfoy3 wrote:
@ Senorcuidado

I do not think they will be rewarded with it long term. The democrats and Obama will push this issue hard next election. They also probably lost the senior vote. Ultimately they only get rewarded if you decide to cast your vote for them next election.


I wish I still believed that. It might backfire on them in the presidential race, maybe, although the economy will more likely decide the victor. Congress, however, wil still be insane. Too many districts are too safe, with the primary voters mattering more than the general electorate. What scares them is not the challenge of a moderate (they can label them socialists) but rather the challenge of a radical outflanking them and stealing their base. I don't think most of them believe the garbage they spew out, but they have to spew it because that's what their core constituency wants to hear. The voters and the media are at least as guilty as the politicians, if they were rational they would have kicked out the crazies a long time ago.

The democrats probably won't punish them effectively because historically they really suck at it. They can't really pretend to be the anti-war party anymore, at least Obama can't. They won't say Republicans held unemployed people hostage in order to secure the extension of tax cuts for the rich in 2010, and brought the country within a day of collapsing TWICE in 2011 in order to cut programs that help the people hardest hit by the recession. They won't say sweeping cuts means sweeping job losses which means a worse economy. They won't remind us of the two years we lost while every single bill in the Senate was filibustered to death with a 41-59 minority. They might accuse the Republicans of sabotaging the economy so they could take the White House, but while that's probably true it won't play well with moderates. Look at 2010, crazy paid off big in the midterm elections. 41 Senators spent two years with the sole purpose of stopping the government from functioning, then pointed at the governing party and said "look, they're not getting anything done!" The only thing crazier than that is the fact that so many voters fell for it. It sounds like I'm bashing Republicans, but like I said I'm mad at everyone involved. I know so many reasonable conservatives that agree with most of what I just said. Who are they supposed to vote for? Who am I supposed to vote for? Ham sandwich 2012.

Listening to the radio on the way to work I heard Rush Limbaugh repeatedly insist that the compromise was all a big trick orchestrated by Obama to score the biggest tax increase in the history of America. Like it or not THAT is the guy voters listen to and come November he will tell them what they think. I don't have high hopes.

One thing about Mitt Romney: Rush Limbaugh hates his guts so he can't be all that bad.


I promise you that no real conservative would agree with anything that you wrote in your post. A RINO? Maybe. But that's about it.
TheGlassface
Profile Joined November 2010
United States612 Posts
August 01 2011 21:15 GMT
#951
See, that's why I hate modern politics.
NO ONE WON in this debate.
NO ONE.

What happened was a president attempted to get grown men to sit down and act like adults about a serious issue in our country. They were meant to do their job.

Instead, we got got a bunch of idiots pandering to a camera. Even the president.

I have been saying for years, and i would vote for it in an instant, that there be some kind of limit placed on campaign money/media time. Level the entire field so it's not about running around on the airwaves slamming "opponents." Rather, make it so that it's not about looks, how they tweet, how they pulled numbers out of one hat that the other guy isn't using. No, let's make it about

The economy, the wars, the poverty, the infrastructure collapse, the education system...
You know...the damn issues.

I can't wait to see this next "choose the lesser of two evils" election coming up. Just like last time...and the time before that...
The mystery of life is not a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. **Hang in there STX fans!! Kal Hwaiting!**
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 01 2011 21:33 GMT
#952
On August 02 2011 06:15 TheGlassface wrote:
See, that's why I hate modern politics.
NO ONE WON in this debate.
NO ONE.


I agree with this. The only group that may have won the tea party, but even then, they only are winners in that they flexed their muscle and forced a debate on this issue. They didn't really get what they want in the end.

Everyone else is a loser. Obama, Boehner, Reid, McConnell, Pelosi --- all of the establishment leaders in Washington took a beating. Liberal democrats were particularly big losers, who basically are getting nothing at the end of the day and were more or less rendered irrelevant during the debate.

The biggest losers were the American people. The debt deal sucks and doesn't fix the problems that need to be addressed. However, we vote these politicans into office, so we're not exactly blameless.
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
August 01 2011 23:57 GMT
#953
On August 02 2011 06:15 TheGlassface wrote:
See, that's why I hate modern politics.
NO ONE WON in this debate.
NO ONE.

What happened was a president attempted to get grown men to sit down and act like adults about a serious issue in our country. They were meant to do their job.

Instead, we got got a bunch of idiots pandering to a camera. Even the president.

I have been saying for years, and i would vote for it in an instant, that there be some kind of limit placed on campaign money/media time. Level the entire field so it's not about running around on the airwaves slamming "opponents." Rather, make it so that it's not about looks, how they tweet, how they pulled numbers out of one hat that the other guy isn't using. No, let's make it about

The economy, the wars, the poverty, the infrastructure collapse, the education system...
You know...the damn issues.

I can't wait to see this next "choose the lesser of two evils" election coming up. Just like last time...and the time before that...


Have to put some of the blame on the voters too, not very politically savvy/properly informed.

Have to say that there's definitely an interest in politics after the 2008 election, but the problem is that you have a bunch of people eating up bullshit on facebook and twitter.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
SnK-Arcbound
Profile Joined March 2005
United States4423 Posts
August 02 2011 00:11 GMT
#954
On August 01 2011 11:49 Zooper31 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2011 04:29 Senorcuidado wrote:
http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/congress-closing-deal-avert-us-default-163724983.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=us&.lang=en-us

We might be able to put this whole charade behind us pretty soon but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It just shows that you can repeatedly hold the country hostage and get rewarded for it. I'm pretty pissed off at everybody involved right now.


This. Democrats were the ones who were willing to compromise the most and we got shafted because the Republicans knew this. Why negotiate when the other person will eventually give in...

Nothing changed in Washington, everything is business as usual and nothing is going to change for the better.

Yeah, the fact that the senate is legal obligated to have done this over 2.5 years ago has nothing to do with this, and same with the House. Democrats don't do what they are supposed to when they control Congress; blame Republicans when they take control later. Democrats spend 10 trillion dollars in 4 years (note at a rate of $.4 per dollar spent that gives our current addition of 4 trillion to the debt ceiling); blame Republicans for not allowing them to spend more.

cfoy3
Profile Joined January 2010
United States129 Posts
August 02 2011 00:26 GMT
#955
@SnK-Arcbound most of the money was spent under Bush. The democrats aren't in the right by any means, but the Rep are way way more wrong. They held a gun to the economy and threated to pull the trigger if they didn't get their way. Obama should have be tougher and submitted his fair plan into the senate so it could be debated in public. I am confident that Obama will push this issue hard next election. All he has to say that the GOP wanted no new revenue and wanted to preserve tax cuts for the wealthy. That they where willing to destroy the US economy to get their way.
??
uiCk
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
Canada1925 Posts
August 02 2011 00:33 GMT
#956
On August 02 2011 08:57 Gamegene wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2011 06:15 TheGlassface wrote:
See, that's why I hate modern politics.
NO ONE WON in this debate.
NO ONE.

What happened was a president attempted to get grown men to sit down and act like adults about a serious issue in our country. They were meant to do their job.

Instead, we got got a bunch of idiots pandering to a camera. Even the president.

I have been saying for years, and i would vote for it in an instant, that there be some kind of limit placed on campaign money/media time. Level the entire field so it's not about running around on the airwaves slamming "opponents." Rather, make it so that it's not about looks, how they tweet, how they pulled numbers out of one hat that the other guy isn't using. No, let's make it about

The economy, the wars, the poverty, the infrastructure collapse, the education system...
You know...the damn issues.

I can't wait to see this next "choose the lesser of two evils" election coming up. Just like last time...and the time before that...


Have to put some of the blame on the voters too, not very politically savvy/properly informed.

Have to say that there's definitely an interest in politics after the 2008 election, but the problem is that you have a bunch of people eating up bullshit on facebook and twitter.

educate the people and they wont be eating as much bullshit.
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids
SnK-Arcbound
Profile Joined March 2005
United States4423 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-02 00:40:34
August 02 2011 00:36 GMT
#957
On August 02 2011 09:26 cfoy3 wrote:
@SnK-Arcbound most of the money was spent under Bush. The democrats aren't in the right by any means, but the Rep are way way more wrong. They held a gun to the economy and threated to pull the trigger if they didn't get their way. Obama should have be tougher and submitted his fair plan into the senate so it could be debated in public. I am confident that Obama will push this issue hard next election. All he has to say that the GOP wanted no new revenue and wanted to preserve tax cuts for the wealthy. That they where willing to destroy the US economy to get their way.

The house controls spending. Republicans controlled all 3 branches of the government for 4 years (2002-2006), which means Democrats were responsible for all the spending from 2006-2010, even if Bush signed off on some of it. That's the 10 trillion and 4 trillion debt.

Democrats create a fiscal trap by not passing a budget (illegal) and spending trillions, and then blaming Republicans for passing a budget they disagree with. Democrats specifically didn't pass a budget because this is what they would hope would happen, Republicans would win an election and then be blamed for the fiscal disaster that they had no part in producing (this soon that is).

You also ignore the factual nature of needing to raise the debt ceiling in order to not default means that the US government is running a ponzie sheme. Oh no the ponzie scheme will collapse if Republicans don't raise the debt ceiling (ignoring the fact that the ponzie scheme in itself is the reason why it doesn't mattter either way, it's going to collapse).

Also you are trying to claim that republicans are responsible for spending if even one republican signs off on it (bush 2006-2008), but that democrats aren't responsible for things if one of them sign off on it (obama and tax rates). You are entirely hypocritical and obviously biased.

edit: by "Republicans" I mean the current republicans elected to the Congress, since they had minority/super minority votes from 2008-2010, not Bush even though he was a Republican.
uiCk
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
Canada1925 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-02 00:45:53
August 02 2011 00:45 GMT
#958
david stockman, Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan, on CNN, talking about how reagan, very anti tax, raised taxes in 80s to fix deficit. blasting republicans for revisionist history and criticising them about always quoting reagan in the wrong way. Obv says Obama is also at fault for not taking a stronger stance and linking both dems and reps as major scam artists and liers. Awsome, blunt interview.
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-02 01:05:29
August 02 2011 01:05 GMT
#959
On August 02 2011 09:36 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2011 09:26 cfoy3 wrote:
@SnK-Arcbound most of the money was spent under Bush. The democrats aren't in the right by any means, but the Rep are way way more wrong. They held a gun to the economy and threated to pull the trigger if they didn't get their way. Obama should have be tougher and submitted his fair plan into the senate so it could be debated in public. I am confident that Obama will push this issue hard next election. All he has to say that the GOP wanted no new revenue and wanted to preserve tax cuts for the wealthy. That they where willing to destroy the US economy to get their way.

The house controls spending. Republicans controlled all 3 branches of the government for 4 years (2002-2006), which means Democrats were responsible for all the spending from 2006-2010, even if Bush signed off on some of it. That's the 10 trillion and 4 trillion debt.

Democrats create a fiscal trap by not passing a budget (illegal) and spending trillions, and then blaming Republicans for passing a budget they disagree with. Democrats specifically didn't pass a budget because this is what they would hope would happen, Republicans would win an election and then be blamed for the fiscal disaster that they had no part in producing (this soon that is).

You also ignore the factual nature of needing to raise the debt ceiling in order to not default means that the US government is running a ponzie sheme. Oh no the ponzie scheme will collapse if Republicans don't raise the debt ceiling (ignoring the fact that the ponzie scheme in itself is the reason why it doesn't mattter either way, it's going to collapse).

Also you are trying to claim that republicans are responsible for spending if even one republican signs off on it (bush 2006-2008), but that democrats aren't responsible for things if one of them sign off on it (obama and tax rates). You are entirely hypocritical and obviously biased.

edit: by "Republicans" I mean the current republicans elected to the Congress, since they had minority/super minority votes from 2008-2010, not Bush even though he was a Republican.

The deficits you are referring to can still be attributed to Republicans, since the said deficits were the direct consequence of the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The stimulus bill was necessary. You are quite simply an idiot if you blame the state of the current state of the US debt on Democrats more than Republicans.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
_Major
Profile Joined April 2011
United States107 Posts
August 02 2011 02:02 GMT
#960
On August 01 2011 11:45 sunprince wrote:
Having the biggest economy = having the most revenue. It's quite standard to assign higher credit ratings to people or institutions with more revenue.


By your logic, we wouldn't lose anything if we defaulted. We would still be the biggest economy.

I'm also very glad that the deal ended up closer to what you edited your post to reflect instead of what the Washington Post had published last night. It's no where near perfect, but it's a start, and better than I expected. Obama fell on his sword for his party, I can only hope they reward him by acting competently over the next 12 months, and not by repeating the mistakes of the past. If they set him up to have no choice but to veto the 2nd and 3rd increases we will have lost almost all the progress gained. Who knows, maybe that'll be enough to wake voters up.

Infographic for anyone interested:
[image loading]
Do you practice on Macro Or Die maps? You should - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216550
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