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The US debt (proper debate) - Page 47

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happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-31 00:47:20
July 31 2011 00:47 GMT
#921
On July 31 2011 08:44 uiCk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2011 08:07 Jayjay54 wrote:
dunno if thats already in here. if not, enjoy.

http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/

i don't really understand the purpose of visualizing how much paper is needed to print 100 trillion dollars. This is sensationalism at its best.


That's what I was thinking. What point are they trying to prove "This is the total amount of money the U.S. will have to pay due to future debt"?


And goodness, you don't need to read the whole thread jayjay, but at least read the most recent page. That has already been posted ON THE SAME PAGE
_Major
Profile Joined April 2011
United States107 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-31 01:08:39
July 31 2011 01:07 GMT
#922
On July 31 2011 09:24 vertigo1 wrote:
personally i think some perspective is welcome


I found this to be a very good tool to quickly get perspective of the situation: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/newsroom/debt-interactive--countdown-to-the-default-deadline.html.

Scroll the timeline back to Dec 3. 2010, then go through the other tabs, and enjoy.

What became really clear to me is that the last thing we need to do is raise the debt limit; and the first things we need to do is raise taxes and cut benefits across the board.

Adding more debt just raises our interest liabilities. AAA bond rating means that we could survive a recession - obviously we can't if we need to borrow more money to pay back our borrowed money. Downgrade is happening regardless.

Leaving taxes as is means that we default on the promises made to and paid by Americans into America. The damage done here will be significant in loyalty, morale, and faith in the federal government's role.

Not cutting enough from spending means nothing will change. We'll continue to throw money at a problem instead of fixing the glaring inefficiencies and corruption that exist.

Do you practice on Macro Or Die maps? You should - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216550
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
July 31 2011 02:08 GMT
#923
So you want to raise taxes and cut spending, delivering a double punch to demand in an economic where demand is non existent. Herebert Hoover did that too, really helped out with the economy.
_Major
Profile Joined April 2011
United States107 Posts
July 31 2011 03:03 GMT
#924
On July 31 2011 11:08 Sub40APM wrote:
So you want to raise taxes and cut spending, delivering a double punch to demand in an economic where demand is non existent. Herebert Hoover did that too, really helped out with the economy.


You want to naysay and add nothing to the conversation

Let me guess, you would all-in by borrowing as much as you could and apply all your logic back to a time when our debt wasn't nearly as out of control, and our defecits were a lot closer to 0?

[image loading]
[image loading]
Do you practice on Macro Or Die maps? You should - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216550
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
July 31 2011 03:17 GMT
#925
It's gonna be ok guys. Help is on the way. The crisis will finally be solved.

WASHINGTON—With lawmakers still at an impasse over increasing the debt ceiling, a special team of 40 eighth-grade civics teachers was air-dropped into Washington earlier today in a last-ditch effort to teach congressional leaders how the government’s legislative process works. “We started them off with the basics, like the difference between a senator and a representative, and then moved on to more complex concepts, like what a resolution is,” Bozeman, MT social studies teacher Heidi Rossmiller told reporters as all 535 members of Congress copied down the definition of “checks and balances” from a whiteboard in the House chamber. “It’s been a bit of an uphill battle, since most of them seemed to have no real sense of how or why a bill is passed, and Sen. [Harry] Reid [D-NV] had to come up to me during a break and ask, ‘Ms. Rossmiller, what happens if Congress can’t reach a compromise?’ But hopefully it will all start to sink in soon.” At press time, an unruly House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) had noisily stormed out of a lecture on bipartisan cooperation, claiming it was “too hard.

- BBC
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
July 31 2011 09:31 GMT
#926
On July 31 2011 10:07 _Major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2011 09:24 vertigo1 wrote:
personally i think some perspective is welcome


What became really clear to me is that the last thing we need to do is raise the debt limit; and the first things we need to do is raise taxes and cut benefits across the board.

This is a good example of someone who is not very familiar with economics but still thinks that "common sense" will somehow allow him to find the perfect solution.

The debt ceiling HAS to be raised.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
epik640x
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1134 Posts
July 31 2011 09:57 GMT
#927
On July 31 2011 06:22 vertigo1 wrote:
http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/

visualisation of the problem.


Oh. Well, shit.
Ghost Reportin
Profile Joined September 2010
83 Posts
July 31 2011 10:36 GMT
#928
Honestly what it boils down to is the average americans responsibility to assume control over their country instead of letting private bankers make the decision, keeping money in the hands of the rich and effectively leaving the poor and down trotted homeless on the lands their fore fathers conqoured. Everyone in Obamas administration and has close ties to wall street. We need a new revolution. The answer to our debt? 1776. God Bless America.
c0rn1
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany146 Posts
July 31 2011 11:15 GMT
#929
"It is good that most people don't understand our banking and financial system. For if they did there would be a revolution by morning."
Henry Ford

The day the governments gave the printing of money out of their hands was the worst day for societies. The focus shifted from the good for the society to private profits. And since money is nothing else than pure power in the hands of a few the fitting sentence of Lord Acton really fits once again in history:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Privatizations is nothing else than robbing a society. "privare" in its' true form in latin means nothing else than "to rob". Extracting some service/product/possession out of the society for pure private measures.
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " (Albert Einstein)
_Major
Profile Joined April 2011
United States107 Posts
July 31 2011 16:42 GMT
#930
On July 31 2011 18:31 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2011 10:07 _Major wrote:
On July 31 2011 09:24 vertigo1 wrote:
personally i think some perspective is welcome


What became really clear to me is that the last thing we need to do is raise the debt limit; and the first things we need to do is raise taxes and cut benefits across the board.

This is a good example of someone who is not very familiar with economics but still thinks that "common sense" will somehow allow him to find the perfect solution.

The debt ceiling HAS to be raised.


You are another example of someone who naysays but presents no reasoning or substance to back them up. Oh wait, my bad, you capitalized 'HAS', so it must be true. /fail

It's funny how people that are supposed to be experts on what's best for our economy have either allowed us to get into this position or have been saying the same things I just did for years.

"Over the next decade, without major changes in federal policies, persistent and
possibly growing deficits, along with the ongoing growth in the debt holdings of
government accounts, would increase substantially the amount of federal debt subject
to limit. Unless federal policies change, Congress would repeatedly face demands
to raise the debt limit to accommodate the growing federal debt in order to provide
the government with the means to meet its financial obligations." - Report requested by Congress to understand the debt situation in 2008

You've already seen the deficit spending, here's how tax rates were applied historically.
[image loading]

They have to write it as objectively as they can, but major changes that separate us from other periods prior to the huge shifts in federal policy that came with the 80s:
1) stop losing so much money
2) reverse the rate of change of top tax rates
Do you practice on Macro Or Die maps? You should - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216550
Arnstein
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway3381 Posts
July 31 2011 17:06 GMT
#931
On July 31 2011 18:31 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2011 10:07 _Major wrote:
On July 31 2011 09:24 vertigo1 wrote:
personally i think some perspective is welcome


What became really clear to me is that the last thing we need to do is raise the debt limit; and the first things we need to do is raise taxes and cut benefits across the board.

This is a good example of someone who is not very familiar with economics but still thinks that "common sense" will somehow allow him to find the perfect solution.

The debt ceiling HAS to be raised.


Maybe, but countries with higher tax still has better economy. I am very happy that I live in Norway.

What sickens me is that, as far as I know, the rich private companies in the US isn't very much willing to help a little. Instead they will cut funding for the public schools used by poor people.
rsol in response to the dragoon voice being heard in SCII: dragoon ai reaches new lows: wanders into wrong game
cfoy3
Profile Joined January 2010
United States129 Posts
July 31 2011 17:16 GMT
#932
@ _Major

What about me? I have consistently demonstrated time and again in this thread why the debt ceiling must be raised, what we need to do to get our long term debt in order and many differing solutions to this problem. We have already hit many of the problems of this thread. So please before you post learn about the various alternatives to solving the problem, the rationale for each and then add your own opinion. Saying "we cannot raise the debt ceiling" shows a complete lack of respect to many people in this thread who have presented compelling evidence to the contrary.

For everyone else if you do not really understand the situation, please look it up. Do some research. Read some of the good articles on the Economist or CNN. Further, you are also able to read through the many pages of this thread and gain a firm understanding rather quickly. However, do not simply post ideas and suggestions that have already been critiqued earlier.
??
_Major
Profile Joined April 2011
United States107 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-31 17:35:22
July 31 2011 17:34 GMT
#933
On August 01 2011 02:16 cfoy3 wrote:
@ _Major

What about me? I have consistently demonstrated time and again in this thread why the debt ceiling must be raised, what we need to do to get our long term debt in order and many differing solutions to this problem. We have already hit many of the problems of this thread. So please before you post learn about the various alternatives to solving the problem, the rationale for each and then add your own opinion. Saying "we cannot raise the debt ceiling" shows a complete lack of respect to many people in this thread who have presented compelling evidence to the contrary.

For everyone else if you do not really understand the situation, please look it up. Do some research. Read some of the good articles on the Economist or CNN. Further, you are also able to read through the many pages of this thread and gain a firm understanding rather quickly. However, do not simply post ideas and suggestions that have already been critiqued earlier.


cfoy3, you are entitled to your opinion. I did not reply to your thread and say you were wrong. I offered someone that was appreciating a sense of perspective a place to go for a more detailed perspective as well as my opinions of our current situation.

But since you have engaged me, and in a polite manner I will say how I feel about what you've said. And this is not because I don't respect you, it's because I don't agree with you.

Our AAA status is a fraud - we do not have 'extremely strong capacity to meet financial commitments'. By us being in a position where we have to raise the debt ceiling to afford regular bills, and having a recent history with so much negative earnings, the confidence in us being able to survive a recession is already shaken. A downgrade is going to happen regardless.

We're admitting that most of the reason we've been able to keep it bottled up thus far is because of our extremely favorable interest rates, and our cavalier attitude towards borrowing more and more to pay for mandatory spending. This is on top of the lack of confidence that the American people have in its own government to pay back the trust funds, which account for almost as much money as public debt.

Do you practice on Macro Or Die maps? You should - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216550
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
July 31 2011 17:35 GMT
#934
On July 31 2011 19:36 Ghost Reportin wrote:
Honestly what it boils down to is the average americans responsibility to assume control over their country instead of letting private bankers make the decision, keeping money in the hands of the rich and effectively leaving the poor and down trotted homeless on the lands their fore fathers conqoured. Everyone in Obamas administration and has close ties to wall street. We need a new revolution. The answer to our debt? 1776. God Bless America.


I bet you will give this answer to every domestic issue ranging from taxes to debt to healthcare to social security to the elections to foreign policy.

I'm sorry but simple and dumb sensational garbage opinions like this is precisely why it's hard for anybody to get anything done in our government.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
Traeon
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria366 Posts
July 31 2011 17:37 GMT
#935
When Iceland got hit by the housing bubble's aftermath, they let their banks fail instead of bailing them out like everyone else did.

Apparently they're doing better than anyone had predicted.

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/287/188/Iceland_Allowed_Banks_To_Fail,_and_Has_Prospered_As_A_Result.html
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-31 17:42:13
July 31 2011 17:41 GMT
#936
On August 01 2011 02:37 Traeon wrote:
When Iceland got hit by the housing bubble's aftermath, they let their banks fail instead of bailing them out like everyone else did.

Apparently they're doing better than anyone had predicted.

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/287/188/Iceland_Allowed_Banks_To_Fail,_and_Has_Prospered_As_A_Result.html


That would be relevant if this issue was about the bailouts.
But it isn't.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
cfoy3
Profile Joined January 2010
United States129 Posts
July 31 2011 18:10 GMT
#937
@ _Major

I disagree with your premise that we should loose our AAA rating. American is the biggest economy (I think as of today, China may soon eclipse), has unprecedented ability to generate income and has worldwide recognition and trust. All of your arguments are why we should get our long term fiscal policy in order. Not why we should default on the full faith and credit of the United States. There is nothing wrong with advocating that we need to reign in spending and get our deficit under control. This is a sensible conviction. However, your approach of stating the US should default does not do justice to the myriad of alternatives. We do not need such a drastic reduction in the size of the government, which ironically would do more to harm our ability to pay off our debt than help. Every time you cut government spending that is someone who loses a job. Now while I agree that does need to happen eventually, right now would be a horrible time. Look to Japan, their government did exactly what you are suggesting-drastically reduce the size of the government during a recession and they still haven't recovered. Politicians should be up front and truthful-we cannot afford the time of government that we currently have.
??
Senorcuidado
Profile Joined May 2010
United States700 Posts
July 31 2011 19:29 GMT
#938
http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/congress-closing-deal-avert-us-default-163724983.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=us&.lang=en-us

We might be able to put this whole charade behind us pretty soon but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It just shows that you can repeatedly hold the country hostage and get rewarded for it. I'm pretty pissed off at everybody involved right now.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-31 20:19:01
July 31 2011 19:32 GMT
#939
On August 01 2011 01:42 _Major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2011 18:31 kwizach wrote:
On July 31 2011 10:07 _Major wrote:
On July 31 2011 09:24 vertigo1 wrote:
personally i think some perspective is welcome


What became really clear to me is that the last thing we need to do is raise the debt limit; and the first things we need to do is raise taxes and cut benefits across the board.

This is a good example of someone who is not very familiar with economics but still thinks that "common sense" will somehow allow him to find the perfect solution.

The debt ceiling HAS to be raised.


You are another example of someone who naysays but presents no reasoning or substance to back them up. Oh wait, my bad, you capitalized 'HAS', so it must be true. /fail

It's funny how people that are supposed to be experts on what's best for our economy have either allowed us to get into this position or have been saying the same things I just did for years.

"Over the next decade, without major changes in federal policies, persistent and
possibly growing deficits, along with the ongoing growth in the debt holdings of
government accounts, would increase substantially the amount of federal debt subject
to limit. Unless federal policies change, Congress would repeatedly face demands
to raise the debt limit to accommodate the growing federal debt in order to provide
the government with the means to meet its financial obligations." - Report requested by Congress to understand the debt situation in 2008

You've already seen the deficit spending, here's how tax rates were applied historically.
[image loading]

They have to write it as objectively as they can, but major changes that separate us from other periods prior to the huge shifts in federal policy that came with the 80s:
1) stop losing so much money
2) reverse the rate of change of top tax rates

You do realize that none of what you just posted contradicts in any way what I said, right? I already posted that I thought tax rates had to be raised. My post wasn't about the tax rates but about the debt ceiling, which also has to be raised. If you disagree, it means you are not familiar enough with economics and I do not feel like giving you a lesson, that's all.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
cfoy3
Profile Joined January 2010
United States129 Posts
August 01 2011 00:00 GMT
#940
@ Senorcuidado

I do not think they will be rewarded with it long term. The democrats and Obama will push this issue hard next election. They also probably lost the senior vote. Ultimately they only get rewarded if you decide to cast your vote for them next election.
??
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