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On June 30 2011 12:15 endy wrote:
Cool, so I wanna kill someone, I just invite him at home, break a window and stab him ?
As long as there is no witness it's fine. And even if there's a witness, since no charges will be pressed against me, it should be fine.
Even if someone saw me in the street opening the door and shaking my victim's hand, unless he specifically learns later in the newspaper that I killed that guy and is able to recognize both of us he has no reason to mention it to anyone.
Dude...if there are no witnesses chances are you wont get caught anyway regardless of whether or not you invited him anywhere
And if there is a witness and he calls the cops, of course charges will be pressed against you
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Nobody breaks into my house, for I am Zeus and Olympus is my kingdom.
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United States24761 Posts
I added 'in UK' to the thread title to make it more clear.
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While this may sound like a good thing at first, I can't help to imagine grey area scenarios in abuse of this rule.
For example:
A person invites someone over, kills him/her, then reports the victim as burglar.
Of course, they would probably investigate deeper to see if it's reasonable. But I'm just skeptical if it will really work that well. Often times there are some sort of loopholes in regulations.
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On June 30 2011 12:07 naggerNZ wrote:
If someone enters your property, uninvited or not, they are your guest and should be treated as such. Stabbing people is not okay.
Hahaha this is funny cuz you're from New Zealand 
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In my state in the US, you can only legally use lethal force against someone in your home if you can reasonably demonstrate that your own life was in danger. Other states though do have slightly less stringent requirements for lethal force. This is a little odd coming from the UK because of the decidedly smaller gun presence and stabbing a robber is extremely risky
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Hong Kong9169 Posts
On June 30 2011 12:05 coZen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 12:01 Arishok wrote:
In the US it is legal to shoot intruders un-invited on our property if they are deemed a threat, AFAIK
Personally if someone broke into my house I wouldn't get close enough to them to use a knife, regardless of what was legal or not. no it is not. you are only allowed to use equal force that they are using upon you. If they pull out a gun, then you are allowed to open fire. I wouldnt want to be on your property on accident!
Your statement does not apply to all of the United States. Certain states and jurisdictions have Castle Doctrine laws where the lawful occupant of a home is legally authorized to use deadly force against intruders. There is no equality of force requirement in those circumstances.
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On June 30 2011 12:05 coZen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 12:01 Arishok wrote:
In the US it is legal to shoot intruders un-invited on our property if they are deemed a threat, AFAIK
Personally if someone broke into my house I wouldn't get close enough to them to use a knife, regardless of what was legal or not. no it is not. you are only allowed to use equal force that they are using upon you. If they pull out a gun, then you are allowed to open fire. I wouldnt want to be on your property on accident!
but if you're being belligerent and reaching in your pocket then i have reasonable cause to shoot you. but keep in mind, if you're dead who knows if this previous act took place? so what you said is correct, however, there are technicalities :x.
also seems like common sense to me :X but good thing it is clarified, hopefully this will deter people from burglary.
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On June 30 2011 12:20 Ryshi wrote:
While this may sound like a good thing at first, I can't help to imagine grey area scenarios in abuse of this rule.
For example:
A person invites someone over, kills him/her, then reports the victim as burglar.
Of course, they would probably investigate deeper to see if it's reasonable. But I'm just skeptical if it will really work that well. Often times there are some sort of loopholes in regulations.
I doubt anyone has a person that they would both like to murder but is a stranger enough that they could convince people he was a random burglar.
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Some states in america have really lax laws on this. the castle doctrine here in PA pretty much says you can kill any uninvited guests in your house as long as they pose a threat, regardless of the duty to retreat law.
Also some states recognize the stand-you-ground law which means you can kill anyone in self defense as long as you feel threatened. Florida is kind of known for having the most relaxed stand-your-ground laws in the country. most states have a duty-to-retreat law in place which means you have to flew if its at all possible.
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On June 30 2011 12:20 Ryshi wrote:
While this may sound like a good thing at first, I can't help to imagine grey area scenarios in abuse of this rule.
For example:
A person invites someone over, kills him/her, then reports the victim as burglar.
Of course, they would probably investigate deeper to see if it's reasonable. But I'm just skeptical if it will really work that well. Often times there are some sort of loopholes in regulations.
Police investigators aren't that stupid to realize things like the LACK of a broken window, or a door that's been forced open.
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Using a knife is a pussy move. A man uses their fucking fists and rams it deep.
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On June 30 2011 12:07 naggerNZ wrote:
If someone enters your property, uninvited or not, they are your guest and should be treated as such. Stabbing people is not okay.
Wow I laughed a lot... Thanks for that.
I'm not sure what I think about this law. Naturally it is good for the case in which you deem the person as a reasonable threat, but I always worry about "unintended consequences" of laws like this. I'm not sure I can really think of any but lawyers are pretty good about stuff like that.
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On June 30 2011 12:17 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 12:15 endy wrote:
Cool, so I wanna kill someone, I just invite him at home, break a window and stab him ?
As long as there is no witness it's fine. And even if there's a witness, since no charges will be pressed against me, it should be fine.
Even if someone saw me in the street opening the door and shaking my victim's hand, unless he specifically learns later in the newspaper that I killed that guy and is able to recognize both of us he has no reason to mention it to anyone. Dude...if there are no witnesses chances are you wont get caught anyway regardless of whether or not you invited him anywhere
If there's no witness, you still need to get rid of a body, which is imo the part of the crime where you will have the most chances to get caught. With that law, the police themselves will get rid of the body for you !
On June 30 2011 12:17 Supamang wrote:
And if there is a witness and he calls the cops, of course charges will be pressed against you
I wasn't talking about someone who witnessed the crime directly, but a random guy in the street who sees you opening the door for your victim. He won't go spontaneously to the police station and say "Hi, I saw that guy opening the door to another guy" unless he learns specifically in the newspaper that there has been a crime there AND remember the exact address of a perfectly normal and uninteresting event (someone opening a door). And if the newspaper doesn't publish a picture of your or of the victim I doubt the witness will remember anything.
Just make sure that your neighbors who will be obviously questioned by police later don't see you opening him the door and you'll be fine
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So, ordering the burglar at gunpoint to bite a curb side and stomping their head is still illegal though right? :p
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If somebody broke into my house while I was inside, I would be scared ****less. I don't know what I'd do.
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There are plenty of actual cases where innocent people are confused for burglars and are attacked or killed for trespassing.
And even besides that, how does a criminal deserve to die? They break the law. It is immoral. But killing a criminal on sight is also immoral. Your plasma tv isn't worth more than the life of a criminal.
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On June 30 2011 12:15 endy wrote:
Cool, so I wanna kill someone, I just invite him at home, break a window and stab him ?
As long as there is no witness it's fine. And even if there's a witness, since no charges will be pressed against me, it should be fine.
Even if someone saw me in the street opening the door and shaking my victim's hand, unless he specifically learns later in the newspaper that I killed that guy and is able to recognize both of us he has no reason to mention it to anyone.
edit : If a burglar enters your home with a knife and you stab him, it should be considered "right of self defense", right ?
Wow you're so good at devising fool-proof murder plans.
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I just dont see how this law would suddenly increase the influx of murders based on self defense against robbers like people seem to be suggesting.
With this law, invite a guy over to your house, stab him to death and make it look like he broke in.
Without this law, invite a guy over to your house, stab him to death and make it look like he broke in and plant a knife on his body.
This law has absolutely no effect on people who want to commit murder using the excuse of self defense against a home intruder
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On June 30 2011 12:26 MozzarellaL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 12:20 Ryshi wrote:
While this may sound like a good thing at first, I can't help to imagine grey area scenarios in abuse of this rule.
For example:
A person invites someone over, kills him/her, then reports the victim as burglar.
Of course, they would probably investigate deeper to see if it's reasonable. But I'm just skeptical if it will really work that well. Often times there are some sort of loopholes in regulations. Police investigators aren't that stupid to realize things like the LACK of a broken window, or a door that's been forced open.
I clearly said "reasonable". The murderer could also create false evidence you know, like attach gloves + break own window.
My example may not be completely applicable to the rule, but what I'm just trying to get at is there are times regulations fail to cover certain areas and was wondering if anyone could provide perhaps some insightful scenario instead of just accept a rule without much critical thinking.
On June 30 2011 12:24 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 12:20 Ryshi wrote:
While this may sound like a good thing at first, I can't help to imagine grey area scenarios in abuse of this rule.
For example:
A person invites someone over, kills him/her, then reports the victim as burglar.
Of course, they would probably investigate deeper to see if it's reasonable. But I'm just skeptical if it will really work that well. Often times there are some sort of loopholes in regulations. I doubt anyone has a person that they would both like to murder but is a stranger enough that they could convince people he was a random burglar.
Well normally there isn't, but there are always the odd scenarios. (eg. random internet psychopaths influenced by some horror story). Of course, the regulations may be more detailed and cover these areas as I have not looked into the details.
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EPT
