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On June 22 2011 05:33 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:32 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 05:23 Nightfly wrote:On June 22 2011 05:18 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 05:10 Nightfly wrote:On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line. rofl. dont you need food as well to survive? can you buy food from CORPORATIONS or do you need it provided by your friendly government? True, but its not likely that I will suddenly run out of food out of events that are entirely beyond my control (or if I did, we just got hit by a big fuckoff natural disaster and everyone else did as well, so we're in the same boat together). If some douchebag runs a red light and puts me in hospital, the situation suddenly boils down to how much money I should pay to fix a problem caused by some other asshole. What's wrong with society pooling together to help its least fortunate? I don't see why people should be penalized just for being unlucky enough to get caught in an accident. We're really that terrified of that 1% of douchebags in society that will try to scam the system, to lift a finger to help the rest? Call me crazy, but when a small handful of assholes at high school abused the school gym equipment, causing them to disallow anyone else to use it unsupervised, I thought that was completely bullshit. nothing wrong with that. what's wrong with me coming up to you with a gun and forcing you to pay my hospital bill? What does that have to do with literally anything we're discussing here? ...that is effectively how "government funded" healthcare works.
Oh, so there's nothing wrong with a socialized healthcare system, except that we have to hand over control to someone else in order to organize such a thing on a scale large enough to manage nearly 400 million people.
How do you propose we set one up them? Leave it to the individual states to manage? If that's the case, I'm curious what instills more faith in state government than federal government?
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To answer the people asking if he can just go to the ER, of course he can. The problem is he has outpatient medical problems that will need a few weeks/months of expensive testing and treatment. The ER/hospital will make sure that he is not having a heart attack, look at his foot and discharge him. If he is lucky, he may stay in the hospital long enough to get a biopsy of chest mass, but he definitely won't be able to afford treatment if he has cancer. He will get a bill that he obviously won't pay, unless he gets a job and starts to put his life together. I don't blame him for thinking 1-3 years in jail would be better for him then trying to get medical care through Medicaid.
The fact is, after losing your job, medical problems are the number 2 cause of bankrupcy in the US. I don't know anything about accounting or politics, so I won't comment on what the solution to this problem is. I do think that we live in a post-scarcity economy. If we have money to drop bombs on random country X at the drop of a hat, I don't see why we can't come up with some kind of fair system to get everyone food, housing, medical care and education.
Don't be too hard on the prison doctor. I try to give everyone a reasonable chance. I was taking care of one guy who told me how (horrible thing spoilered) + Show Spoiler +he would beat 14-15 year old girls to keep them in line as prostitutes for him.
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On June 22 2011 05:36 Noped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:28 Treemonkeys wrote:On June 22 2011 05:27 Noped wrote:On June 22 2011 05:24 Treemonkeys wrote:
Anyone who still thinks private corporations run healthcare in the USA doesn't have a damn clue and has never tried to run a private practice. The government controls everything, that is why prices are so high, well...one of the many reasons. How can one person be so wrong, so many times, in two sentences? Nice argument dude, do you have any idea how many rules private practices have to follow? How much it costs to follow them? How often the government changes them? How much it costs to keep up with the changes? No, you don't. You are trying to make the argument that healthcare costs (from the consumer) are high because of government regulation on private practices. It's as if you think insurance companies aren't a part of the equation at all. It's as if you think there is no fundamental problem with a few private companies controlling health care prices in the first place. It's as if you don't take into account the gigantic dollar sign we have placed on our own health in this country. It's actually crazy that people think the cost of care itself and not insurance is the root problem. It's mind blowingly insane.
It its the cost of regulation that drove prices up that made insurance needed. "gigantic dollar sign" wtf is that supposed to mean? Doctors are not like HEY LETS RAPE THEM FOR ALL WE CAN GET. They want to make a nice profit, and they have to cover the huge amount they spent on medical school, and the cost of running running a practice goes up EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Every time congress meets they add on new rules which means doctors pay for new computer systems, software upgrades, and higher employee to doctor ratio to keep up with all the paperwork which means costs go up - constantly.
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Aaah, there's nothing like a little ignorance to brighten up my day.
Germany has about 82 million citizens
The US has about 309 million citizens
That's below 4 times the size. (The US is about 3.75 times bigger population wise)
Arguing that it wouldn't work because the US is "so big" is retarded. Get a government that works, get laws that work, and it will be fine. But I think we all realize that's not going to happen, at least not for a good while.
so, i was talking about geography, not population, the fact that germany has such a densely populated country helps you about as much as being a generally sparsely populated one in between the coasts hinders us
i think what is retarded is making assertions the way you do and taking what people say the way you want it to mean so you can talk shit on them
but thats just me
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United States24701 Posts
On June 22 2011 05:40 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Well Germany isn't really small you know. you could drop what about 30 germanys into the US? Aaah, there's nothing like a little ignorance to brighten up my day. Germany has about 82 million citizensThe US has about 309 million citizensThat's below 4 times the size. (The US is about 3.75 times bigger population wise) Arguing that it wouldn't work because the US is "so big" is retarded. Get a government that works, get laws that work, and it will be fine. But I think we all realize that's not going to happen, at least not for a good while.
He wasn't being ignorant... he was using a different method to compare the countries. The USA is in fact 27.5 times bigger than Germany.
You can make your point that a country being 3-4 times bigger in population doesn't mean a similar healthcare system wouldn't work... but you have just made a point. You really don't deserve to say someone else is retarded for not sharing you belief in such a complicated issue.
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On June 22 2011 05:30 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:28 DeepElemBlues wrote:What are the major causes of these rises in healthcare costs? Baby Boomers are starting to get into their early-to-late 60s (lots and lots of new health conditions that need to be treated, and the elderly tend to go to the doctor A LOT), new technologies and products coming out at an amazing rate, exorbitant liability insurance, overuse of diagnostic tests, overregulation of the market that limits consumer choice, and health care providers having to pick up the tab for the uninsured which they pass on to the insurance companies who pass it on to the consumer. Basically people lacking insurance is a problem but solving it with some big government spending program and not solving the other problems would be horrible, and that's what Obamacare will do. Wrong, the reasons prices continue to go up is because of how expensive it is for private practices to keep up with all of the government rules. If they actually let doctors run healthcare how they wanted, prices would go down.
Haha this statement is complete bullshit. The prices are so high for lots of reasons - one of the biggest reasons is because our health care system is so decentralized, so many different private offices and clinics create a TON of redundancy throughout the country.
Seriously, stop spouting your idiocy.
Point in case: One of the best clinics in the country, the Mayo Clinic, offers MUCH better care than your average clinic, and for MUCH cheaper as well. Why? Because they've combined so many health care functions into one place, reducing tons of administrative and other redundant costs. Further more, look at a state like Texas, which is ranked close to last in the country in health care quality and is also ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE!
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On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
cause half of americans think "statutory health insurance system"="death penal for grandma and grandpa"
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On June 22 2011 05:39 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:33 domovoi wrote:On June 22 2011 05:28 weeba2933 wrote:
To my knowledge, the tax in USA is a lot smaller than Canada or EU. At the same time, stereo-typically (correct me if I'm wrong), most Americans own 2 or more cars right? And the cars might be pickup trucks or just cars that are inefficient. It just appears that Americans "seemly" have more money, less tax, buys more luxury items, whereas in Canada or EU or other countries with "free healthcare" don't have as much money for personal use as Americans do.
So to me, it would appear that it's not really "fully" the government's fault. But rather it would appear (Correct me if I'm wrong) that most Americans want less tax, more money to themselves to spend on luxury items. But with this system, universal free healthcare would be near impossible due to lack of funding (from low tax).
Am I wrong here? At the rate that health care costs are increasing, the US won't be able to afford a universal system no matter how high taxes are. It's not like it would be hard to cut spending. Like its the most simple process in the world. I mean it all really comes down to common sense. Do we really need to have troops in every country in the world save a few? Do we really need to be involved in 5 wars? Do we really need to have 80% of the worlds total military spending. Do we need to crowd our jails with non violent offenders. I mean. The answer is pretty fucking easy.. Unless your a politician. Who has to have his true opinions swayed by fear mongering news organizations. Is it really that complicated? I think not.
It would be highly unrealistic to defund the entire military (5% of our GDP), but even if they did, health care costs would overcome the difference within a decade or so. Right now, they're at 16% and projected to be about 30% within 20 years. At that point, you would have to tax everything at 50% just to fund health care.
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On June 22 2011 05:39 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:33 domovoi wrote:On June 22 2011 05:28 weeba2933 wrote:
To my knowledge, the tax in USA is a lot smaller than Canada or EU. At the same time, stereo-typically (correct me if I'm wrong), most Americans own 2 or more cars right? And the cars might be pickup trucks or just cars that are inefficient. It just appears that Americans "seemly" have more money, less tax, buys more luxury items, whereas in Canada or EU or other countries with "free healthcare" don't have as much money for personal use as Americans do.
So to me, it would appear that it's not really "fully" the government's fault. But rather it would appear (Correct me if I'm wrong) that most Americans want less tax, more money to themselves to spend on luxury items. But with this system, universal free healthcare would be near impossible due to lack of funding (from low tax).
Am I wrong here? At the rate that health care costs are increasing, the US won't be able to afford a universal system no matter how high taxes are. It's not like it would be hard to cut spending. Like its the most simple process in the world. I mean it all really comes down to common sense. Do we really need to have troops in every country in the world save a few? Do we really need to be involved in 5 wars? Do we really need to have 80% of the worlds total military spending. Do we need to crowd our jails with non violent offenders. I mean. The answer is pretty fucking easy.. Unless your a politician. Who has to have his true opinions swayed by fear mongering news organizations. Is it really that complicated? I think not.
I totally understand what you're saying. I agree and disagree with the war. It's expensive, and probably not profitable unless for Iraq case for oil. But the leaders of the countries USA is at war with ARE pretty horrible dictators. Should USA be the one to intervene? I guess different people have different opinions.
As for spending so much in military. It's debatable. 80% is quite significant. But being World's #1 Superpower, it is expected to have the strongest military force. Because you know how people are. When you are #1, other people WANT to bring you down. I guess it's part of human nature to wish to see #1 fail.
In my opinion, I don't think these questions are "common sense". If a massacre is occurring in a country, should the world leaders just let it go? I don't know. People have different opinions.
Maybe there are some parts that needs some less funding. But in my opinion, the situation isn't as "black and white".
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On June 22 2011 05:39 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:33 domovoi wrote:On June 22 2011 05:28 weeba2933 wrote:
To my knowledge, the tax in USA is a lot smaller than Canada or EU. At the same time, stereo-typically (correct me if I'm wrong), most Americans own 2 or more cars right? And the cars might be pickup trucks or just cars that are inefficient. It just appears that Americans "seemly" have more money, less tax, buys more luxury items, whereas in Canada or EU or other countries with "free healthcare" don't have as much money for personal use as Americans do.
So to me, it would appear that it's not really "fully" the government's fault. But rather it would appear (Correct me if I'm wrong) that most Americans want less tax, more money to themselves to spend on luxury items. But with this system, universal free healthcare would be near impossible due to lack of funding (from low tax).
Am I wrong here? At the rate that health care costs are increasing, the US won't be able to afford a universal system no matter how high taxes are. It's not like it would be hard to cut spending. Like its the most simple process in the world. I mean it all really comes down to common sense. Do we really need to have troops in every country in the world save a few? Do we really need to be involved in 5 wars? Do we really need to have 80% of the worlds total military spending. Do we need to crowd our jails with non violent offenders. I mean. The answer is pretty fucking easy.. Unless your a politician. Who has to have his true opinions swayed by fear mongering news organizations. Is it really that complicated? I think not.
Do you really need to spend that much on medicine? There is a very weak correlation between medicine spending and health. It's probably the first thing you should look at if you want to cut your budget.
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Why does everyone ignore that the US pays half the entire worlds military budget COMBINED? China, Russia, and the rest of the entire fucking world - combined - is still less than what the US spends on military! You cannot pay for this shit and expect to be able to afford everything that other countries with literally a single digit percentage of what US spends on military. You gotta cut corners to pay for that shit and healthcare is one of those corners.
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im actually pretty geeked that my guess was so close, guesstimate i guess would be better
=D
anyway why the USA being less densely populated is a problem is that we need as many hospitals as we can get in order to cover as many people as possible.
all these hospitals naturally want the best equipment and the best doctors and nurses and assistants and employees in general they can get their hands on
but not all of these hospitals live in communities with the wealth to support it
but most of the time the hospitals get the equipment at least anyway, or the best they can get is still pretty expensive, and this cost is passed on to insurance companies, especially as medical technology keeps improving so fast
so, it isn't the whole problem or even 15% of the problem, but you add everything up including people being uninsured and you have a big problem, one not necessarily fixed by insuring the uninsured through government and putting new regulations on insurance companies that are going to inevitably raise their costs
Why does everyone ignore that the US pays half the entire worlds military budget COMBINED? China, Russia, and the rest of the entire fucking world - combined - is still less than what the US spends on military! You cannot pay for this shit and expect to be able to afford everything that other countries with literally a single digit percentage of what US spends on military. You gotta cut corners to pay for that shit and healthcare is one of those corners.
oh please the US spends about 700 billion a year on defense currently as said about 5% of GDP guess how much health care is? 16% last i checked and rising. thats a lot more than 700 billion.
no one ignores it, people who think about it dismiss it because its unrealistic and wouldnt help anyway
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On June 22 2011 04:56 wzzit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:50 trainRiderJ wrote:
Where I live the people without insurance just use the emergency room or a free clinic. Do they not have those in New York? In what part of the country are emergency rooms free of cost?
Here's a hint: they don't pay the bill, the rest of us do indirectly through higher costs. At least in their case we're not also paying for their food and lodging.
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To be honest, I have felt like almost doing this before, I just recently had to pay 120 for a doctor to say I had a ailment I was already aware of. Then I had to pay 120 more for medicine that would cost 15 bucks for someone with insurance.
How is this something that is going to get me out of debt and prepare me for life on my own? *I am still living with my family by the way at 22 years old, and still recovering from illness so I cannot work.
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On June 22 2011 05:43 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On June 22 2011 05:28 DeepElemBlues wrote:What are the major causes of these rises in healthcare costs? Baby Boomers are starting to get into their early-to-late 60s (lots and lots of new health conditions that need to be treated, and the elderly tend to go to the doctor A LOT), new technologies and products coming out at an amazing rate, exorbitant liability insurance, overuse of diagnostic tests, overregulation of the market that limits consumer choice, and health care providers having to pick up the tab for the uninsured which they pass on to the insurance companies who pass it on to the consumer. Basically people lacking insurance is a problem but solving it with some big government spending program and not solving the other problems would be horrible, and that's what Obamacare will do. Wrong, the reasons prices continue to go up is because of how expensive it is for private practices to keep up with all of the government rules. If they actually let doctors run healthcare how they wanted, prices would go down. Haha this statement is complete bullshit. The prices are so high for lots of reasons - one of the biggest reasons is because our health care system is so decentralized, so many different private offices and clinics create a TON of redundancy throughout the country. Seriously, stop spouting your idiocy. Point in case: One of the best clinics in the country, the Mayo Clinic, offers MUCH better care than your average clinic, and for MUCH cheaper as well. Why? Because they've combined so many health care functions into one place, reducing tons of administrative and other redundant costs. Further more, look at a state like Texas, which is ranked close to last in the country in health care quality and is also ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE!
Yeah dude, I have been working in the medical industry for the past 8 years, what is your experience?
ANYONE who runs a private practice will tell you that costs have been constantly going up. One clinic doing better than others has fuck all to do with that.
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Someone explain to me why I should WANT global healthcare coverage? Realistically speaking, I see no reason why I should WANT to pay for joe smith's medical bills. I have plenty of bills to pay for on my own.
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On June 22 2011 05:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Wow,I don't even feel like arguing this because i would have to type and essay on how wrong this is.
what was wrong with it
i can link you the budget numbers
i can link you the stories about europe's increasing problems with sustaining the libyan war
i can link you canada's defense spending
i can explain to you very easily and simply why an industry that provides goods or services that are perceived by people as so valuable and essential that they have positive price elasticity is the kind of industry capitalists would want to get into. hint: you can make money!
Alright,
first of all you can't dump 30 Germanys into the US.Germany has 81 million people living in it,the US has 311.For the sake of argument ill say EU is bigger than the US and everyone here has pretty much free healthcare in one form or another.
Second,I'm aware of the US budget.What you aren't aware of is how insanely high the cost of your military is compared to the world.1/5 of the 3.5 trillion dollar budget going to the military is insane.
You spend more on military than the rest of the world.
Third,if your argument is that EU dragged the US into the war with Libya,than that's quite ironic because,the Eu is equally obliged to support the US in every stupid war march that they can think off,which during the cores of the last few decades,US had a lot of them which didn't help your budget either.
Your last point is exactly the root of American problem.Capitalism has its fingers in everything,and if you think that's a good thing your deluded.
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On June 22 2011 05:48 Spacely wrote:
To be honest, I have felt like almost doing this before, I just recently had to pay 120 for a doctor to say I had a ailment I was already aware of. Then I had to pay 120 more for medicine that would cost 15 bucks for someone with insurance.
How is this something that is going to get me out of debt and prepare me for life on my own? *I am still living with my family by the way at 22 years old, and still recovering from illness so I cannot work.
You should try getting on medicaid
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On June 22 2011 05:49 dogabutila wrote:
Someone explain to me why I should WANT global healthcare coverage? Realistically speaking, I see no reason why I should WANT to pay for joe smith's medical bills. I have plenty of bills to pay for on my own.
Realistically speaking, it's probably not Joe Smith's medical bills you will be paying. 
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On June 22 2011 05:41 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:36 Noped wrote:On June 22 2011 05:28 Treemonkeys wrote:On June 22 2011 05:27 Noped wrote:On June 22 2011 05:24 Treemonkeys wrote:
Anyone who still thinks private corporations run healthcare in the USA doesn't have a damn clue and has never tried to run a private practice. The government controls everything, that is why prices are so high, well...one of the many reasons. How can one person be so wrong, so many times, in two sentences? Nice argument dude, do you have any idea how many rules private practices have to follow? How much it costs to follow them? How often the government changes them? How much it costs to keep up with the changes? No, you don't. You are trying to make the argument that healthcare costs (from the consumer) are high because of government regulation on private practices. It's as if you think insurance companies aren't a part of the equation at all. It's as if you think there is no fundamental problem with a few private companies controlling health care prices in the first place. It's as if you don't take into account the gigantic dollar sign we have placed on our own health in this country. It's actually crazy that people think the cost of care itself and not insurance is the root problem. It's mind blowingly insane. It its the cost of regulation that drove prices up that made insurance needed. "gigantic dollar sign" wtf is that supposed to mean? Doctors are not like HEY LETS RAPE THEM FOR ALL WE CAN GET. They want to make a nice profit, and they have to cover the huge amount they spent on medical school, and the cost of running running a practice goes up EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Every time congress meets they add on new rules which means doctors pay for new computer systems, software upgrades, and higher employee to doctor ratio to keep up with all the paperwork which means costs go up - constantly.
Spoiler alert: No one is talking about Doctors in this thread, except for you. The vast majority Americans don't walk into a private practice and pay cash to get their heart transplant. That's the entire point of insurance. I effectively pay into a risk pool in my insurance company constantly, so that if something happens to me that costs a ton of money, my insurance company can pay for it. Over time, insurance companies find new and improved ways to make larger profit margins by keeping sick people out of the risk pools and by finding ways to pay out less money, while charging more money. Cost of insurance is the problem we are talking about. No one is accusing a Doctor of saying LOL LETS MAKE HEART TRANSPLANTS COST A BILLION DOLLARS LOLOL...
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