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On June 22 2011 06:57 AttackZerg wrote:
Maybe healthcare shouldn't be allowed to be capitalist. It doesn't work. Paying doctors and surgeons and nurses for their time is very important, they spent thousands and thousands for the training to get there and they worked themselves into a long term industry but maybe the large conglomerates shouldn't be allowed to rape the market they control.
This isn't nice cars or phones, this is human health. It should be a right of every world citizen to receive care.
Governments need to protect and serve the needs of the people otherwise they all will crumble into irrelevance. This isn't 1776 anymore, the founding fathers are relics of a world without relevance. We need governments built for the world we live in now, not slave owners, racists and ancient thinking. We can do better. We can have a more perfect union.
We need a new constitution. We need a new federal system.
The thing is, it's really difficult to single out one specific thing and make it "non capitalistic" in a full-on capitalist environment. Most of the arguments of the side that opposes the "socialization" of healthcare in the US are actually true.
To build a society with a government that can serve its citizens instead of having them run a financial obstacle course for their entire life (and if you fall for whatever reason, you're fucked), you need to rein-in capitalism in general and have a government actively organize and run the country.
In general, I do agree with your points, I just think that it's a broader issue than just healthcare.
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No dude, it's not our decision, we have fuck all say in it.
well of course it's our decision
if you vote for the same old assholes, you're going to think it isn't your decision because they do the same thing every time
vote for someone new
get people to vote for someone new
get people to vote for someone who doesnt want to be in congress forever
get people to vote for someone who has a personal stake in fixing the problems of the country
in a country that has had so much political upheaval but is still going strong, you really think the will of the people does not count?
To build a society with a government that can serve its citizens instead of having them run a financial obstacle course for their entire life (and if you fall for whatever reason, you're fucked), you need to rein-in capitalism in general and have a government that can actively organize and run the country.
i hear the russians and comrade mao had a lot of practice at trying to actively organize and run entire countries
that hitler fellow too
THE POINT IS
it doesnt work
also it seems to be pretty shitty for the people being actively organized and run
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you dont know that this country is about people ruling themselves in a way they all get together and choose to be ruled, i guess.
And what choice do they have?
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'MERICA
User was warned for this post
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Health care should be personal thing. The whole system is screwed up when this kind of thing happens. The solution is personal empowerment to attain good health not government health care.
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And what choice do they have?
ummm, to come together and hash out the issues of the day and live their lives in a way according to their conscience and their own perception of their self interest (turns out, lots of people think the best way to do that is helping out people worse off than they are! volunteering, charity, being a liberal, the list is endless)
are you denying that the ability to do these things exists in the united states?
'MERICA
belgium isnt so different =)
flanders and wallooooons?
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On June 22 2011 07:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe healthcare shouldn't be allowed to be capitalist. It doesn't work. Paying doctors and surgeons and nurses for their time is very important, they spent thousands and thousands for the training to get there and they worked themselves into a long term industry but maybe the large conglomerates shouldn't be allowed to rape the market they control.
This isn't nice cars or phones, this is human health. It should be a right of every world citizen to receive care.
Governments need to protect and serve the needs of the people otherwise they all will crumble into irrelevance. This isn't 1776 anymore, the founding fathers are relics of a world without relevance. We need governments built for the world we live in now, not slave owners, racists and ancient thinking. We can do better. We can have a more perfect union.
We need a new constitution. We need a new federal system. Those big conglomerates all lined behind Obamacare, something to think about. It's nice to know political liberty and the pursuit of happiness are relics of an ancient racist slave-owning world without relevance. you dont know that this country is about people ruling themselves in a way they all get together and choose to be ruled, i guess. Show nested quote +Fuck the monopoly over healthcare. I will have none of it.
Fuck a country that bleeds people dead. Stuffs people into giant grotesque walking heart attacks. ...you do know the biggest providers of health insurance in this country after employers are the state and federal governments, right?
I didn't say that the ideas are wrong, they are just insufficient. The pursuit of happiness if just colorful language, happiness isn't a pursuit, the real promise is "a pursuit that makes you happy" which is beautiful, but still not enough.
I never said anything about working within the system as it stands, I never even said I was liberal, I just said that health care is a human right.
If you do not believe that ideals and cultures have evolved since the constitution was written then we disagree and cannot come to agreeable terms. I believe that we are evolving constantly and our system no longer holds relevance in too many areas to serve us all equally, or correctly.
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No money, no job, no healthcare, no family to support and having severe medical issues, I cannot say I disagree with his action.
And yes, it's manipulating the system, but what else could he have done? I have no knowledge of the American healthcare other than that's it very bad  ) but considering this man wanted to go to jail for healthcare I assume that was his only option.
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On June 22 2011 07:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:ummm, to come together and hash out the issues of the day and live their lives in a way according to their conscience and their own perception of their self interest (turns out, lots of people think the best way to do that is helping out people worse off than they are! volunteering, charity, being a liberal, the list is endless) are you denying that the ability to do these things exists in the united states? belgium isnt so different =) flanders and wallooooons?
it's two totally different issues.
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On June 22 2011 07:10 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:02 Euronyme wrote:
The investment banker with no sence of worth in human life said that every European country has a worse debt / gdp than USA, which isn't true, and even if it was, we have less of a military producing a fuckton of useless GDP.
Making humvees contributes to the GDP, but not to the quality of living. Well someone still needs to be paid to make them. That increases that person's quality of living for sure. Not to say that there aren't better uses of the money, but it's wrong to say it's "useless" GDP.
It's tax money paying for bogus jobs -.-'
If the government hired 200 million people to make airplanes that are too heavy to lift, then sure, you've just improved the quality of life for 200 million people, and your GDP is through the roof..
That's like the definition of useless lmao.
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I didn't say that the ideas are wrong, they are just insufficient. The pursuit of happiness if just colorful language, happiness isn't a pursuit, the real promise is "a pursuit that makes you happy" which is beautiful, but still not enough.
the right to pursue, uh, a pursuit that makes you happy isn't of vital importance?
that's so many freedoms rolled up into one that i disagree.
I never said anything about working within the system as it stands, I never even said I was liberal, I just said that health care is a human right.
i didnt say you were a liberal either, i was just pointing out that nationalized healthcare may not be so conglomerate free
If you do not believe that ideals and cultures have evolved since the constitution was written then we disagree and cannot come to agreeable terms. I believe that we are evolving constantly and our system no longer holds relevance in too many areas to serve us all equally, or correctly.
i disagree, i believe that the ideas in the declaration of independence, the preamble to the constitution, the bill of rights, and the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments speak to true human ideals in their political and legal relations with their government and fellow citizens.
and that they are just as necessary and important today as they were in 1776, 1787, 1865, and 1866.
i do believe that cultures and ideals evolve and that the constitution and its amendments have wonderfully expressed that while still emphasizing timeless and universal ideas of liberty and freedom
i dont think we need to look to the constitution at all to solve the health insurance problem in this country, reasonable legislation from the congress and state assemblies can do the trick i think
it's two totally different issues.
no no i meant that i think belgium has just as much belief in and respect for individual initiative and freedom as the united states
I have no knowledge of the American healthcare other than that's it very bad )
is it?
stuff like this makes americans not want to listen to anyone else if our healthcare is very bad please stop coming to our mayo clinic and other facilities that rich foreigners are always coming to
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On June 22 2011 07:25 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +I didn't say that the ideas are wrong, they are just insufficient. The pursuit of happiness if just colorful language, happiness isn't a pursuit, the real promise is "a pursuit that makes you happy" which is beautiful, but still not enough. the right to pursue, uh, a pursuit that makes you happy isn't of vital importance? that's so many freedoms rolled up into one that i disagree. Show nested quote +I never said anything about working within the system as it stands, I never even said I was liberal, I just said that health care is a human right. i didnt say you were a liberal either, i was just pointing out that nationalized healthcare may not be so conglomerate free Show nested quote +If you do not believe that ideals and cultures have evolved since the constitution was written then we disagree and cannot come to agreeable terms. I believe that we are evolving constantly and our system no longer holds relevance in too many areas to serve us all equally, or correctly. i disagree, i believe that the ideas in the declaration of independence, the preamble to the constitution, the bill of rights, and the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments speak to true human ideals in their political and legal relations with their government and fellow citizens. and that they are just as necessary and important today as they were in 1776, 1787, 1865, and 1866. i do believe that cultures and ideals evolve and that the constitution and its amendments have wonderfully expressed that while still emphasizing timeless and universal ideas of liberty and freedom i dont think we need to look to the constitution at all to solve the health insurance problem in this country, reasonable legislation from the congress and state assemblies can do the trick i think no no i meant that i think belgium has just as much belief in and respect for individual initiative and freedom as the united states
Aren't republicans against public health care? Afaik, Obama tried to do something of a European variant, but got shut down and had to make drastic changes to please enough republicans for it to go through.
That's atleast what I've heard.
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On June 22 2011 07:11 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 06:57 AttackZerg wrote:
Maybe healthcare shouldn't be allowed to be capitalist. It doesn't work. Paying doctors and surgeons and nurses for their time is very important, they spent thousands and thousands for the training to get there and they worked themselves into a long term industry but maybe the large conglomerates shouldn't be allowed to rape the market they control.
This isn't nice cars or phones, this is human health. It should be a right of every world citizen to receive care.
Governments need to protect and serve the needs of the people otherwise they all will crumble into irrelevance. This isn't 1776 anymore, the founding fathers are relics of a world without relevance. We need governments built for the world we live in now, not slave owners, racists and ancient thinking. We can do better. We can have a more perfect union.
We need a new constitution. We need a new federal system. The thing is, it's really difficult to single out one specific thing and make it "non capitalistic" in a full-on capitalist environment. Most of the arguments of the side that opposes the "socialization" of healthcare in the US are actually true. To build a society with a government that can serve its citizens instead of having them run a financial obstacle course for their entire life (and if you fall for whatever reason, you're fucked), you need to rein-in capitalism in general and have a government actively organize and run the country. In general, I do agree with your points, I just think that it's a broader issue than just healthcare.
I agree.
I do believe that there our too many things that domino out of effect when you change a billion dollar industry in a 14 trillion dollar a year economy during a economic melt down.
It would require drastic changes that seem impossible, it would have to become illegal to use the medical industry to create wealth. It would have to change entirely to a non-profit business structure, which of course runs the risk of hampering the development of new frontiers in medicine.
I just know that the system can never work as is, and that is all I know.
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On June 22 2011 07:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:ummm, to come together and hash out the issues of the day and live their lives in a way according to their conscience and their own perception of their self interest (turns out, lots of people think the best way to do that is helping out people worse off than they are! volunteering, charity, being a liberal, the list is endless) are you denying that the ability to do these things exists in the united states?
Oh no,I do not deny at all the privilege to do those things in any other country as in the US.
But to make it sound like those things happen in America any more than in any other country is quite vague.
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maybe instead of robbing a bank he might get a job
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Aren't republicans against public health care? Afaik, Obama tried to do something of a European variant, but got shut down and had to make drastic changes to please enough republicans for it to go through.
That's atleast what I've heard.
being against nationalized healthcare doesnt mean we're against reform, at least i hope not we do need it
Oh no,I do not deny at all the privilege to do those things in any other country as in the US.
But to make it sound like those things happen in America any more than in any other country is quite vague.
well i wasnt trying to do that if it came off that way i wrote badly
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1) Limit the amount of money that the Pharmaceutical companies can charge for a pill. I don't care if it took your 50 million dollars to design the pill, you don't have to make 50 million of those LIFESAVING PILLS and charge 100 bucks each. I'm a good American, and I love making a profit off of something I made, but profiting by making the dangerously ill sell their homes and an extra kidney is ludicrous.
2) Keep Obamacare, at least up to the part where Insurance companies are getting forced to not do that "pre-existing condition" bullshit. And they can't artificially raise premiums on people who have developed a chronic illness to force them from their plan. Don't tell me it didn't happen, I've seen the articles and the interviews. And that's what happens when you've allowed capitalism to infect the business of safeguarding life. People are killed to make a few bucks.
3) Allow people to buy into Tri-Care, the current form of insurance for the American military. I'm currently on it, and it's awesome. There's no dental, but fuck. When you get basically any major surgery for a simple 20 dollar co-pay, and every medicine you could ever need for either a 3 or 6 dollar co-pay, it's awesome. Once I'm out of undergraduate school, I could stay in Tri-Care if I agreed to a premium of $1,000 a quarter. That's a flat $4,000 a year to be on some pretty damned awesome insurance. If I had that money, and wasn't a poor ass college student, I wouldn't hesitate. If the government could offer that to me, and I'm the dependent of retired Air Force, then there's no reason why they can't offer similar to the American people at large.
4) Introduce Tort Reform. It's ridiculous how American "Sue and Counter-Sue" culture has become. Long gone are the days where if your neighbor broke a post in the fence he would fucking just repair the fence. Now you have to sue him to fix it (but, obviously, the plantiff has only given the defendant a month to fix it, but everyone's douches here apparently) and there's got to be a counter-claim about how the tree in their yard blocks light from some important room and BLAH BLAH BLAH.
This, of course, translates into a woman getting 50 million dollars because a doctor left a sponge in her stomach cavity. Nothing was harmed, and the hospital paid for the procedure to take it out, and obviously offered a settlement in line with her...you know..having to be cut open again...but no. The woman gets 50 million dollars. That's ludicrous. People should get money if they're damaged like that, but there's a reason why there's a doctor shortage. No small part of it is the 300,000 dollars in student loan debt followed by exorbitant malpractice insurance costs. Don't tell me that the doctors deserve to pay those outlandish costs, because they don't.
4) Make accepting Medicare and Medicaid easier. There was a report by the AP that talked about a study done in Illinois. Children who were on state insurance were forced to wait for life saving specialists up to a month or two months longer than those children with private insurance. When your child has a "Holy shit, heart tumor" problem and the cardiologist says "Sorry, I have to make you wait a month and a half" while he squeezes in the private insurance baby two weeks from when they called there's something wrong.
And no, it's not discrimination against the poor. It's the fact that going through all of the hoops for Medicare and Medicaid is fucking annoying and time consuming and completely unwarranted. There's all of that work and paperwork, and you're not even guaranteed to get all of your costs back.
I'm all for helping poor people, I promise. I grew up living pay check to pay check and learning how to eat Mustard/Ketchup sandwiches when we couldn't afford the two dollar lumps of "Ham and Cheese Loaf," which is as disgusting as it sounds. My mother went on WIC when she had my littlest brother, and she came off of it promptly when he turned one. She only ever took outright government assistance in Welfare when she cut up her hand in the glass factory she was working in and so couldn't work there or in the second job she had. She was on it for a year, and jumped right back off when she got a job with the school district.
I've never really known what it's like to have all of my expenses "cared for." It's just never worked out that way for me, especially now that I'm in college. I may have scholarships, which have saved me from ten thousands of dollars worth of debt, but I can't work when I'm taking a full course load of 18 hours. I'm constantly living with the idea of stretching out the 1,000 dollars I get from my scholarships to live on for 4 bloody months a semester. Yeah, I remember those London riots that the students had. They were over what, having to pay 5,000 dollars a year or a semester for schooling? Lulz, I would be paying $10,000 a semester ($20,000 an academic year) for schooling if I didn't have scholarships. And that's the normal thing around here in America.
I say all of that to shore up any claim that I'm just "out of touch" or "don't know what I'm talking about." No, I do. I know what it's like to not be able to get sick because your mom can't afford to take you to the hospital. I know what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck for most of my life. I also know what it's like to have quality health insurance in Tricare, and I know the fear that's pulsing through me when I turn 22 and I'm thrown off of it. No one should have to be in constant fear of being sick.
Government subsidized healthcare would at least ease that pain. Give everyone a fucking 200 dollar tax credit for healthcare insurance, and be done with it. Give them that, give them the option to buy into TriCare, and do the other stuff I called for up above. All of that, and I'm only 21 years old. Damn. I should be a politician or something.
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On June 22 2011 07:32 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Aren't republicans against public health care? Afaik, Obama tried to do something of a European variant, but got shut down and had to make drastic changes to please enough republicans for it to go through.
That's atleast what I've heard. being against nationalized healthcare doesnt mean we're against reform, at least i hope not we do need it Show nested quote +Oh no,I do not deny at all the privilege to do those things in any other country as in the US.
But to make it sound like those things happen in America any more than in any other country is quite vague. well i wasnt trying to do that if it came off that way i wrote badly
Ok,so what do you suggest the alternative is?You obviously stated that you think the EU social model is not right for the US,but the current US model is bad as well.
As a American citizen what do you think would be a good solution?
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On June 22 2011 07:31 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
maybe instead of robbing a bank he might get a job
maybe instead of robbing a bank he should actually read the OP.
i understand where this guy is coming from. i have never been to a doctor/dentist or any physician. it is outrageously expensive. a trip to the dentist can run you 2-6k EASILY, how do they expect you to be able to pay for this up front with no assistance?
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The question is will government subsidized health care really ease that pain, in the long run no the costs are unsustainable and in the short term well we can see what is going on, many employers are saying they will drop employee healthcare after Obamacare is fully implemented in 2013. That dumps an additional burden on the government, and undoubtedly some of those people won't get new health insurance at all... and the government system is very unlikely to do much if anything to lower spending or even the rate of increase in spending.
Except for expanding subsidies I agree with everything you said, it was great.
As a American citizen what do you think would be a good solution?
I think that it's inevitable that we're going to have to increase the number of young people on government insurance and the elderly on it aren't going to be getting off, but there are ways to reduce costs in the industry, tort reform, making incentives for hospitals and doctors to pool resources and for companies to make even better technology, costs will inevitably come down someday that way it has happened in every other industry ever...
Also reform insurance regulation to allow insurance companies to offer a wider variety of plans, this is the biggest thing I think. Buy as much or as little insurance as you want, there is a plan out there for you. With enough people paying premiums even if it's not a large amount, there will still be more money in the system to help cover as many people as possible. The greatest businessmen who wish to sell goods or services to the masses realize that the key to great success is not selling fewer products at a large profit, but rather selling a much larger number of products at a small profit margin.
There's no way to completely end the problem of scarcity in healthcare yet, unfortunately, doesn't matter if you're private or nationalized.
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