EPTOne thing I do want to know, though, is whether vegans foresee a future without "speciesism". Do you think you will eventually wins rights for animals equivalent to humans? Also, if you believe animals to be equal to humans and worthy of the same rights, do you not think almost every human alive and who has ever lived is essentially evil for being a mass murderer?
Vegan Thread 3.0 - Page 9
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
One thing I do want to know, though, is whether vegans foresee a future without "speciesism". Do you think you will eventually wins rights for animals equivalent to humans? Also, if you believe animals to be equal to humans and worthy of the same rights, do you not think almost every human alive and who has ever lived is essentially evil for being a mass murderer? | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:12 Laerties wrote: Don't you think there are practical means of killing animals without pain? Not all slaughterhouses need to be like those in those earthlings videos. What if there is proper regulation and enforcement?Yea, if the animal just died naturally that is fine. In this case no one is causing something pain for their pleasure, so there is no moral issue with it. I don't see it as a practical solution tho ^.^ | ||
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Laerties
United States361 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:19 FuzzyJAM wrote: I can't say I want to get involved in this argument because I highly doubt there would be much movement on either side and I don't feel like I'd learn much. One thing I do want to know, though, is whether vegans foresee a future without "speciesism". Do you think you will eventually wins rights for animals equivalent to humans? Also, if you believe animals to be equal to humans and worthy of the same rights, do you not think almost every human alive and who has ever lived is essentially evil for being a mass murderer? I don't think any vegans believe animals should have all the same rights as humans(pretty sure cows don't need civil liberties). I think most vegans just believe animals should have the right to fight for their own survival. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:13 Ig wrote: You're mistaken and quite cocky if you think I'm actually being defensive. Perhaps I did take the tone, but I don't see an actual need to...win...over someone like you because it was clear from your first post towards me that you're an asshole with little to no knowledge of the issue who just wants to dick around in the thread. I merely took your statements as an opportunity to present some other points. right, im the asshole I know you haven't taken a position so you can stir things up a little, I'm just feeding you to see how far you go. I called you a troll because you are one, but not a very good one. If you're going to troll, do it well: "take" a stance and proceed from there. wow, really? how far did i go? how successful were you? and IM THE TROLL? As for me, well I've already stated I don't have issues with either side, only with idiots trying to argue about the morals. yeah, arguing about morals, what idiots | ||
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Laerties
United States361 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:22 VIB wrote: Don't you think there are practical means of killing animals without pain? Not all slaughterhouses need to be like those in those earthlings videos. What if there is proper regulation and enforcement? Again, I think its wrong to take an animals life for the pleasure of eating meat. In the scenario you developed no one took the life from the animal, the animal died naturally so no one was taking an animals life for pleasure. EDIT: That isn't to say I wouldn't appreciate slaughter houses that killed animals in less painful ways. | ||
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
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Laerties
United States361 Posts
On June 04 2011 03:15 Ig wrote: Dear OP: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=229315¤tpage=7#124 Seriously though, there's absolutely nothing backing your arguments besides the word of others. No hard facts, no details, and some cherry-picked examples. You should consider the reason you are able to make this argument in the first place: you're in the lap of luxury (relative to the rest of the world) and don't need to depend on meat for protein, as many actually do. Yea dude, this is just wrong. Meat production is something like 10x less economical than growing vegetation because of the amount of grains the cows need to eat. A large amount of impoverished people living in india who are hindu and buddhist dont eat meat because of their religion. | ||
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Iranon
United States983 Posts
On June 03 2011 23:27 Tomkr wrote: For those who point to science as a source of "proof" that meat-eating is good, you should go out and read Michael Pollan's "In Defence of Food", which shows that the science behind what we eat is pseudo-science at best, and industry-backed lies at worst. Another very good read with regards to eating animals is "Eating Animals" by Jonathan Saffran Foer. In general I feel there is not necessarily a problem with eating meat (even though I do not), there is mainly a problem with the industrial process with its lack of regard for animals, humans, and the environment. Again, the above mentioned two books will give you a good view of this. The way in which humans (at least in the "West") go about producing hamburgers is literally unsustainable. The question whether eating an animal is morally justified is one that is much harder to answer than the question whether the way we currently eat animals is morally justified. This, this, and more this. I'm vegan not because of animal rights issues or compassion or anything like that, but because the industry that fuels our meat consumption is just raping the environment with an FDA-approved baseball bat. It's too much trouble for me to keep track of ways to verify how this cow and that pig were raised, so I cut out animal products altogether and cast my dollar vote against the factory farm system. As an outdoorsy guy, many of my friends are hunters, and I have absolutely no problem with eating hunted meat. If I'm over their house and they cooked up an awesome venison thing, sure, I'll have that. All the hunters I know are very respectful ones, not assholes with guns who just like killin' shit. There is certainly a place in the world for killing animals for food, just not so much doing it by the millions. | ||
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Aurocaido
Canada288 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:30 Dagobert wrote: See, I don't mind if people don't eat meat, or don't wear leather, but I mind people telling other people not to eat meat or not to wear leather (or in general use non-human animal products), as that usually constitutes being a pretentious prick. I'm all for good treatment of animals, but there are limits to that. Especially when the interest of the animal collides with my interest of eating it. Then people should kill the animals they wish to eat themselves, or at least be able to witness the event. Its laughable how many avid meat eaters are unable to stomach the sight of blood. So many individuals are appaled by any incident of animal cruelty they hear about, only to then return to eating their juicy steak. There is a fundamental disconnect from the meat on our tables and the methods used to put it there. It is this disconnect that has led to the current way in which animals are treated in our society. | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:26 travis wrote: right, im the asshole wow, really? how far did i go? how successful were you? and IM THE TROLL? yeah, arguing about morals, what idiots Why are you being so defensive? Are you mad? I didn't mean to insult you, I only wanted to point out what you were trying to do! As for the topic itself, one of the things in the sustainability context is the integration of animals back into agroecosystems. This integration promotes vegetarianism or semi-vegetarianism and is ecologically the ideal, though it can support vegans as well. | ||
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blackone
Germany1314 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:30 Dagobert wrote: See, I don't mind if people don't eat meat, or don't wear leather, but I mind people telling other people not to eat meat or not to wear leather (or in general use non-human animal products), as that usually constitutes being a pretentious prick. I'm all for good treatment of animals, but there are limits to that. Especially when the interest of the animal collides with my interest of eating it. It blows my mind how many people realize that if you want to save the lives of animals, of course you try to convince everyone to not eat meat. How stupid would you have to be to not get that? | ||
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
On June 04 2011 03:47 Laerties wrote: I would just like to post my rationale for not eating meat because I think it makes a lot of sense. In the society I live in, and most people live in, people eat meat for pleasure. People eat food to survive, but most people eat meat rather than tofu, and other types of veggie proteins because they receive pleasure from the taste of meat. In order to eat that meat, an animal was put through the most intense forms of physical and emotional pain(in the forms of panic, fear etc..). What is essentially going on here is humans inflicting pain upon animals for personal pleasure. I see anyone causing others pain for personal pleasure as immoral. I understand people eating meat if it is necessary for them to survive, because now they are causing pain for their own survival, which in my opinion, is more justifiable. Many people argue that plants suffer too, but again, I eat plants to survive, (its not possible to survive without eating plants). It's also for this reason that I see eating as a duty, a service I perform to keep my body healthy. If anyone sees fault with my thought process please let me know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin_(film) Interesting movie that touches on livestock psychology and humane livestock facilities. The focus, obviously, is on the person, Temple Grandin. On June 04 2011 04:54 blackone wrote: It blows my mind how many people realize that if you want to save the lives of animals, of course you try to convince everyone to not eat meat. How stupid would you have to be to not get that? What's with the hostility? You can't honestly expect people to make an entire lifestyle change - to remove meat from their diets instantly. It's much easier to start with "eat different meats" or "eat less meat". | ||
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tadL
Croatia679 Posts
you dont have any solution and i have so many examples. and ironon, what are you? vegan who eats killed wild animals. great! better get an social care system, a better school system and plz a health care system! | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:48 Aurocaido wrote: Then people should kill the animals they wish to eat themselves, or at least be able to witness the event. Its laughable how many avid meat eaters are unable to stomach the sight of blood. So many individuals are appaled by any incident of animal cruelty they hear about, only to then return to eating their juicy steak. There is a fundamental disconnect from the meat on our tables and the methods used to put it there. It is this disconnect that has led to the current way in which animals are treated in our society. Anyone who enjoys canned sardines like I do already gets the visceral experience of consuming an animal corpse where everything is visible and edible, including skin, bones (soft and chewy!) and internal organs. I think you overestimate how much the average person actually gives a fuck about animals raised for meat. Even if you showed everyone a video of a slaughterhouse every month for the rest of their lives, the vast majority would still eat meat. Most people really only care about cute animals, like cats and dogs. | ||
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Lexpar
1813 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:56 garlicface wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin_(film) Interesting movie that touches on livestock psychology and humane livestock facilities. The focus, obviously, is on the person, Temple Grandin. What's with the hostility? You can't honestly expect people to make an entire lifestyle change - to remove meat from their diets entirely. It's much easier to start with "eat different meats" or "eat less meat". Well... If you think about it, most vegetarians/vegans are people who did make "en entire lifestyle change." Maybe making lifestyle changes seems less absurd to people who've actually done them? | ||
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Lexpar
1813 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:56 tadL wrote: ok i get it, we will stop everything right now. people will not get their insolin for expample. if sb is ill we will just pray to an imagination and hope that everything will be right. i cauld take more examples but as i understand you: you dont have any solution and i have so many examples. and ironon, what are you? vegan who eats killed wild animals. great! better get an social care system, a better school system and plz a health care system! ... Are you mad at vegans or centrist-social governments? | ||
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
On June 04 2011 05:17 Lexpar wrote: Well... If you think about it, most vegetarians/vegans are people who did make "en entire lifestyle change." Maybe making lifestyle changes seems less absurd to people who've actually done them? *entire lifestyle change - to remove meat from their diets instantly. Going to edit that now. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:48 Aurocaido wrote: Then people should kill the animals they wish to eat themselves, or at least be able to witness the event. Its laughable how many avid meat eaters are unable to stomach the sight of blood. So many individuals are appaled by any incident of animal cruelty they hear about, only to then return to eating their juicy steak. There is a fundamental disconnect from the meat on our tables and the methods used to put it there. It is this disconnect that has led to the current way in which animals are treated in our society. Really liked this post. Very succinct and accurate imo. | ||
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Lexpar
1813 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:48 Aurocaido wrote: Then people should kill the animals they wish to eat themselves, or at least be able to witness the event. Its laughable how many avid meat eaters are unable to stomach the sight of blood. So many individuals are appaled by any incident of animal cruelty they hear about, only to then return to eating their juicy steak. There is a fundamental disconnect from the meat on our tables and the methods used to put it there. It is this disconnect that has led to the current way in which animals are treated in our society. I agree! One of the biggest reasons I stopped eating meat.  | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On June 04 2011 05:36 Haemonculus wrote: Really liked this post. Very succinct and accurate imo. That could technically be said about most things. Like clothes. How many of you have picked cotton? It is a pain in the ass, and I only picked on plant, not to mention the colouring of it... | ||
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