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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221799 My point to have brought this argument here still is: There are good economic, political and social arguments for vegetarianism without appealing to "my morals are better than yours" or "my opinion is better than yours". Which are horrible arguments for any discussion. | ||
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:23 Laerties wrote: Um.....people who are vegetarian don't eat meatttt sooooooo......... Also, If you had to make the choice between harming an animal or harming a plant to survive, I'm pretty certain you can be safe in your assumption that the plant is going to suffer less. Lemme first argue with your other post about morals and stuff. It doesn't matter if it's subjective or it doesn't exist. As long as morals aren't universally objective, then your argument doesn't actually convince anyone. If your morals are defined differently than mine (suppose I believe it's perfectly fine to harm animals for fun, and your analogy to humans doesn't apply because humans != animals we eat), then your argument about morals doesn't hold water in my mind. Now, about the suffering and harming thing. See, the problem here is, you're only saying animals suffer less because you think they can feel emotions better, they can move, they can make sounds, etc. That is, they're closer to you. I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, both plants and animals are unable to think or reason. They feel pain the same. We're doing nothing better by killing plants than animals. Also, just because plants can't express their pain doesn't mean they're not hurting. Apparently, and I think this is really crazy, some scientists have hooked up EEGs to plants to test their reactions to humans hurting other plants. The plants "brain-waves" actually move, meaning not only might plants be able to feel pain, they might be able to feel sympathy. That's higher order emotional creatures you're eating. | ||
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TheWestWind
Canada87 Posts
I'd eat whatever I had to if it was worth it to continue living, but in this day and age, you can consume less net resources and have a smaller cost per unit of energy gained when you compare a veggie focused diet with a meat focused one. | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:23 Laerties wrote: Um.....people who are vegetarian don't eat meatttt sooooooo......... Also, If you had to make the choice between harming an animal or harming a plant to survive, I'm pretty certain you can be safe in your assumption that the plant is going to suffer less. And...there are people who eat exclusively meat so...what was your point? Also, plants respond to physical harm as well, they simply don't have faces and the ability to scream so people like you don't think they suffer as much. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/science/15food.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all You'll have to rethink the way you think. | ||
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Laerties
United States361 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:26 VIB wrote: Laertis. I'm not gonna insist in derailing the thread to talk about morals. I do think saying "morals are subjective" and "morals doesn't exist" have the same practical meaning and the difference is just semantic. If you wanna talk about that, then necro the morals thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221799 My point to have brought this argument here still is: There are good economic, political and social arguments for vegetarianism without appealing to "my morals are better than yours" or "my opinion is better than yours". Which are horrible arguments for any discussion. *Sigh* I am not saying "my morals are better than yours". That would only be implied if the other person had accepted that eating meat is immoral and they continued to eat meat. Also, talking about morality in a vegan thread is not derailing the thread....we are talking about a reason for being vegan. Now, 'Morals are subjective' and 'Morals don't exist' do not imply the same thing. In fact, saying morals are subjective implicitly suggests that morals exists so the two statements actually contradict each other. No, they don't have the same practical meaning and one here interpreted them as having the same meaning. ALSO! I am still genuinely curious...Is the main thing that prevents you from killing people who make you angry or w/e are the consequences...jail etc of killing that person. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
or is this just a place where side A tries to convince side B that they are right? | ||
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Laerties
United States361 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:37 ghrur wrote: Lemme first argue with your other post about morals and stuff. It doesn't matter if it's subjective or it doesn't exist. As long as morals aren't universally objective, then your argument doesn't actually convince anyone. If your morals are defined differently than mine (suppose I believe it's perfectly fine to harm animals for fun, and your analogy to humans doesn't apply because humans != animals we eat), then your argument about morals doesn't hold water in my mind. Now, about the suffering and harming thing. See, the problem here is, you're only saying animals suffer less because you think they can feel emotions better, they can move, they can make sounds, etc. That is, they're closer to you. I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, both plants and animals are unable to think or reason. They feel pain the same. We're doing nothing better by killing plants than animals. Also, just because plants can't express their pain doesn't mean they're not hurting. Apparently, and I think this is really crazy, some scientists have hooked up EEGs to plants to test their reactions to humans hurting other plants. The plants "brain-waves" actually move, meaning not only might plants be able to feel pain, they might be able to feel sympathy. That's higher order emotional creatures you're eating. First off, I like a lot of your points. I'll start with the first one. If you read the top of my post, I was only providing my own personal rationale for not eating meat. So obviously, I am operating under my moral standards so if morals truly are subjective *which I'm a bit conflicted over*, my rationale still holds. Also, i've had this argument about plants before, which is why I mentioned it in my original post. I would agree that plants are to a certain extent aware of whats going on physically, but they dont incur any emotional damage because they don't have brains to release chemicals that cause emotional reactions. So plants MAYBE feel pain, but I would say that the emotional an psychological damage of having your life threated is to me, even worse than the physical pain of having your throat slit or w/e. What do you think? Thanks for the discussion. | ||
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hotbreakfest
United States145 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:39 Ig wrote: And...there are people who eat exclusively meat so...what was your point? Also, plants respond to physical harm as well, they simply don't have faces and the ability to scream so people like you don't think they suffer as much. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/science/15food.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all You'll have to rethink the way you think. So the most moral solution is to be a fruitarian!! I think I'm going to go mow the lawn now. >:D | ||
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Laerties
United States361 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:39 Ig wrote: And...there are people who eat exclusively meat so...what was your point? Also, plants respond to physical harm as well, they simply don't have faces and the ability to scream so people like you don't think they suffer as much. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/science/15food.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all You'll have to rethink the way you think. You should refer to the point I made about plants in the post above. Also, ethical and moral decisions are traditionally made on what is observable. So maybe YOU need to rethink they way you think  . | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
The most important thing in this debate is to be accepting of peoples position and not try to win in some kind of logical argument. That will only make each side dig their heels in more, and become less interested in an open debate, in what can be an interesting conversation if people want to throw in any tidbits about their lifestyles or anecdotes about adapting to a vegan diet, or whatever. Personally I do raw veganism, great fun, no need to cook anything, easy and cheap. Had a big debate about it in 2.0 lol and its too late to type it again :p | ||
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Impervious
Canada4170 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:40 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: am i stupid for expecting some recipes and cool pictures when i clicked on this thread? im not a vegan/vegetarian at all but wouldve liked to see if they are some dishes i might like or is this just a place where side A tries to convince side B that they are right? +1 I read through the first few pages, to see if anyone attempted to put this thread on the right track. What a waste of time. This discussion is going to go nowhere..... Unfortunately..... | ||
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Laerties
United States361 Posts
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hotbreakfest
United States145 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:54 Impervious wrote: +1 I read through the first few pages, to see if anyone attempted to put this thread on the right track. What a waste of time. This discussion is going to go nowhere..... Unfortunately..... +10 I'm a carnivore (or maybe more of an omnivore), and I came into this thread because I love mah veggies too. No recipes = I am quite disappointed. Speaking of that, anybody have a good recipe involving spicy curry? I think this looks delicious... ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UIXOn06Pz70/ScrDHvALwRI/AAAAAAAAGgI/mSAxEksRcv0/s800/Cauliflower+and+Chickpea+Curry+500.jpg) On June 04 2011 08:01 Laerties wrote: I'm gunna go ahead and defend my actions here for a sec. I think that arguing about lifestyle can actually be pretty beneficial. Its true that it can get overly heated and personal, and sometimes result in people digging their heels in or w/e but I feel that it is important to understand the reasons for your actions and argument is a good way to do just that. Actually no. All it does is make me NOT want to be a vegan, because some of you guys act like your all high and mighty above everyone else (not talking about you specifically). | ||
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NIJ
1012 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:37 ghrur wrote: Lemme first argue with your other post about morals and stuff. It doesn't matter if it's subjective or it doesn't exist. As long as morals aren't universally objective, then your argument doesn't actually convince anyone. If your morals are defined differently than mine (suppose I believe it's perfectly fine to harm animals for fun, and your analogy to humans doesn't apply because humans != animals we eat), then your argument about morals doesn't hold water in my mind. Now, about the suffering and harming thing. See, the problem here is, you're only saying animals suffer less because you think they can feel emotions better, they can move, they can make sounds, etc. That is, they're closer to you. I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, both plants and animals are unable to think or reason. They feel pain the same. We're doing nothing better by killing plants than animals. Also, just because plants can't express their pain doesn't mean they're not hurting. Apparently, and I think this is really crazy, some scientists have hooked up EEGs to plants to test their reactions to humans hurting other plants. The plants "brain-waves" actually move, meaning not only might plants be able to feel pain, they might be able to feel sympathy. That's higher order emotional creatures you're eating. Plants don't feel pain as we know it cause they lack nervous system. And iirc that test was a hoax. Still though. why should I care more about animals than plants? Now I don't think cannibalism is equal to vegetarianism. I do care about 'moral' treatment of living things, But I remain unconvinced why I need to make a distinction on sentience, what IS sentience anyway? Is sentience granted per individual or is braindead individual still considered with sentient rights because he was born as the right species? Would any vegetarians be opposed to genetically bred braindead cows for slaughter? Is braindead person eligible to be rumpsteak? What if turkeys were further pushed to evolution of retardation? I don't eat sentience doesn't provide answers to these zany scenarios. :p | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 04 2011 07:48 Laerties wrote: You should refer to the point I made about plants in the post above. Also, ethical and moral decisions are traditionally made on what is observable. So maybe YOU need to rethink they way you think . You should refer to the point about using the line of reasoning that says "they don't feel the same way we do," it's not something you should just brush off because it doesn't suit you. You can't say you're not arguing morality when it's clear you are, and it's clear you think yours is superior. My point on this goes along with that and isn't that you have to eat meat or can't be vegan, my point is that it's a matter of personal choice that should not involve morals because you can't say "I hold all life in the highest regard" (some do) or anything about life at all, and choose to eat some forms over others because of some ambiguous moral issue. It's said very plainly in that article and a fact of life: human beings survive by eating other living things. Would you tell a bear, which in many ways occupies a similar ecological niche to us humans, to not eat salmon or a sick deer it can catch because it can survive off of plant material? This is ecology and our ancestry, we eat meat (and plants), we were able to evolve big brains because we ate meat, and it is a luxury of our modern society that we have the time to argue over the ridiculous notion of the morality of eating meat, not an actual moral issue akin to equality. Now how we obtain our meat is another issue and I am most definitely against factory farming and the massive amount of meat that we eat - we can eat meat, just eat less so we don't have a demand for operations such as factory farms. hotbreakfast put it in a funny way, but he's not wrong. Pretty much the only living things that exist to be eaten are fruits. Maybe you should only eat fruits and tell me how that goes. | ||
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
On June 04 2011 04:48 Aurocaido wrote: Then people should kill the animals they wish to eat themselves, or at least be able to witness the event. Besides the logistic impossibility of your demand, it is also a non-sequitur. Why should they? | ||
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Impervious
Canada4170 Posts
On June 04 2011 08:10 hotbreakfest wrote: +10 I'm a carnivore (or maybe more of an omnivore), and I came into this thread because I love mah veggies too. No recipes = I am quite disappointed. Speaking of that, anybody have a good recipe involving spicy curry? I think this looks delicious... One trick for a curry dish is to make sure the rice is perfect. The curry itself can be tailored to your individual taste (it's better to experiment a bit, especially with korma style curries, which are insanely easy to make), but the rice needs to be well done, or else the dish as a whole will suffer. My favorite way of cooking the rice is to use a bit of oil, and fry up about a quarter of an onion per serving. Once it's browned a bit, add the water (use long grain rice, and a 2 cup water to 1 cup rice ratio) and some raisins (I've found that any of the craisin varieties, especially the pomegranate kind, work excellent), and when it boils, add the rice, lower the heat, and simmer until it's done. If anything, slightly "overcook" the rice, so the rice at the bottom of the pot browns and clumps together. I've found that the tang from the onions, and the sweetness from the raisins, compliments any spicy curry really, really well. As for making it really spicy - use habanero or scotch bonnet peppers in your recipe (those are my personal favorites for hot curries, but other insanely hot peppers will do the trick). | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
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